Trick Magic Items with an Untrained skill?

[The Ronyon]

I know you mudt have a trained skill to qualify for the feat.
Can you be untrained the skill you are using with this feat?
For eximple be a Druid, trained in Nature, untrained Archana or Occult and attempt to trick a scroll of uh, lets say Resplendent Mansion?
I imagine your chances would be very poor,but you can still attempt it, right?

[Finoan]

There are a few feats like this. Assured Identification and Magical Shorthand for example.

There are also feats that explicitly don't work interchangeably like that and have different effects based on the skill used. Consult the Spirits being the one that I can think of.

And Consult the Spirits makes it really hard to argue that RAW Trick Magic Item doesn't work for additional skills that you don't have the proficiency to qualify for the feat with. These feats should mention that they only work with skills that you meet minimum proficiency with if that is the intent.

I do expect that many GMs will still request that it not work that way. It does feel a bit strange that it works.

[Baarogue]

@Finoan, I don't know what you mean about Consult the Spirits, as in I don't know if we agree or disagree about its influence on the argument. I consider it a non sequitur for the following reason

>Choose Nature, Occultism, or Religion when you select this feat
>more text explaining what each skill gives

Then at the end, the kicker
> Special You can select this feat multiple times, each time picking a different skill in which you have the master proficiency rank. You can use this feat with each skill once per day (or once per hour, if you're legendary).
Because it only works with the skill you choose when you take the feat

Otherwise why allow/require taking the feat multiple times for different skills?
Consult the Spirits is like Assurance, unusable with any skill you haven't taken it for

Now, back on-topic
Considering that Identify Magic (a comparable use of the same skill) is on the general skill actions table as a trained skill, combined with the TMI feat requiring trained to take, I would rule that you need trained in a skill to use it with TMI

Back to Assured Identification and Magical Shorthand, I would probably rule similarly for them for the same reason. The proficiency requirement for taking the feat is where I would place its use on the general skill action table

[YuriP]

Also we need to consider the risk to use it with a untrained skill.

For example the OP mentioned to use a Resplendent Mansion with TMI but the spell DC to use TMI with a rank 9 spell like Resplendent Mansion is 36! Even if you roll a 20 in your dice it will result into a failure so there's no use here.

Even a rank 1 spell is DC 15 even if a GM accept to use it with an untrained skill you still have 25% of chance to critically fails and become unable to try again in that day if you don't have any other bonuses.

[shroudb]

YuriP wrote:

Also we need to consider the risk to use it with a untrained skill.

For example the OP mentioned to use a Resplendent Mansion with TMI but the spell DC to use TMI with a rank 9 spell like Resplendent Mansion is 36! Even if you roll a 20 in your dice it will result into a failure so there's no use here.

Even a rank 1 spell is DC 15 even if a GM accept to use it with an untrained skill you still have 25% of chance to critically fails and become unable to try again in that day if you don't have any other bonuses.

Ehh, you can have untrained improvisation that actually gives you a sizeable bonus without making you trained.

I still think the RAI is though that it only applies on Trained skills.

[Finoan]

Baarogue wrote:

@Finoan, I don't know what you mean about Consult the Spirits, as in I don't know if we agree or disagree about its influence on the argument.

To me it indicates that the writers do know how to create a feat that has multiple skills that it could affect, but you don't automatically get the full abilities of the feat for every skill.

I think you are right that Assurance is a better example of this. It very clearly only works on a skill of your choosing that you qualify to take the feat for and only for that one skill.

TMI and Magical Shorthand are silent on that. Which indicates that the devs know how to write the feat in such a way that it would only work for the skills that qualify, but deliberately chose not to do so.

It isn't the strongest argument, so I expect table variation on it.

Edit: Recognize Spell is the best of all of them that I have found so far. It does exactly what I am describing - it works for multiple skills when only taking the feat once, but clearly only works for skills that you meet the proficiency requirements for.