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It's sort of interesting to note that if you do take those descriptions of holy/unholy as prescriptive it does make 'stupid evil' kind of the norm for certain deities.
Like an Asmodean cleric can't simply believe in order at any price or the importance of strong leadership, but they have to actively show "devotion to victimizing others" ... which means pain and suffering is no longer simply an acceptable means, but now an end in and of itself. It makes the whole religion a bit pettier and more nihilistic as a consequence, though that's not necessarily a bad thing for storytelling purposes. It does have the potential to make them feel a bit more cartoonish though.
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Actually, evil is still a thing. It is Evil that went away and got replaced by Unholy for PFS PC purpose IIRC.
You get what I mean. With the remaster, there's no more questionning on the morality of your behavior unless you go for extreme one that will give you Infamy. So you can play a PC that would qualify as Evil in the past.
Actually, evil is still a thing. It is Evil that went away and got replaced by Unholy for PFS PC purpose IIRC.You get what I mean. With the remaster, there's no more questionning on the morality of your behavior unless you go for extreme one that will give you Infamy. So you can play a PC that would qualify as Evil in the past.
In a more pragmatic sense, very little has changed.
- How evil you can have your actions be is unchanged. The Infamy rules stand exactly as they were, and PFS had no other applicable enforcement.
- How evil you can present yourself as outside of your actions is unchanged. If it doesn't generate infamy, then PFS doesn't address it.
- Your character options and what you have written on your character sheet will have shuffled around, because the actual options themselves have shuffled around, but there's a pretty direct correspondence nonetheless. Previously, you couldn't write down that you were evil, or take the obviously evil-flagged character options. Currently, you can't write down that you're unholy, or take the obviously evil-flagged character options.
Like, the only difference I can see is if you yourself cared about properly roleplaying the alignment written on your character sheet, at which point you could now write nothing and still have RP justification for considering yourself to be "evil". The rules themselves didn't change a lot, though.
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Like, the only difference I can see is if you yourself cared about properly roleplaying the alignment written on your character sheet
Yes, obviously. Some people are doing otherwise?
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Never had a problem playing a Lawful Neutral Asmodean in PFS when it was still allowed. I was only given a warning for being "disruptive" once due to making a joke about wanting to banish another player's quasit familiar (my character was styled as something of a professional demon hunter) and I likewise only had to pay for a single atonement in my entire PFS career (played through the Eyes of the Ten "retirement" scenarios), due to an effect that forced alignment shift toward evil written into the scenario being played at the time.
The issue I have - the issue I have always had - is that that conceptual space has been erased out from under me in 2e. I'm now put in the position where I must either make my character more evil/unholy (and thus more unplayable) in order to keep their faith in Asmodeus "legitimate", or purposefully delegitimize their faith by making them a heretic, a poser, or simply delusional.
And that's before accounting for the fact that leaning into Law vs. Chaos is what made the character work, and that has been all but gutted. I built my entire character around the 1e Asmodean Demon Hunter religion trait and the backstory of the Hellknight orders, namely that they were initially founded to combat a cult of demon worshipers - now the "official" diabolic position (per Monster Core) seems to be "Why kill demons when we can USE them?" and the only things Hellknights seem to be focused on combatting these days are "terrestrial" matters like rebels and criminals.
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and I likewise only had to pay for a single atonement in my entire PFS career (played through the Eyes of the Ten "retirement" scenarios), due to an effect that forced alignment shift toward evil written into the scenario being played at the time.
Flashback:
I played that scenario with a *Mystery Cultist*. (Prestige Class like a diabolist, but for angels.) When the choice came up, I started off refusing the thing, until the GM started not-so-subtly-hinting that I should do it. So I did, made the alignment shift and *immediately* lost 3 levels of abilities (including spellcasting). The GM was chagrinned that she hadn't realized how alignment dependent my class was, but I was the one who was useless until we could get an atonement. (Which she did make available before the end of the scenario, but it was pretty rough until then.)|
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and I likewise only had to pay for a single atonement in my entire PFS career (played through the Eyes of the Ten "retirement" scenarios), due to an effect that forced alignment shift toward evil written into the scenario being played at the time.Flashback:
I played that scenario with a *Mystery Cultist*. (Prestige Class like a diabolist, but for angels.) When the choice came up, I started off refusing the thing, until the GM started not-so-subtly-hinting that I should do it. So I did, made the alignment shift and *immediately* lost 3 levels of abilities (including spellcasting). The GM was chagrinned that she hadn't realized how alignment dependent my class was, but I was the one who was useless until we could get an atonement. (Which she did make available before the end of the scenario, but it was pretty rough until then.)
Oof... I got off easy on that one.
Unrelated, though, it does remind me... When are we getting a Rage of Elements-style book for fiends, Paizo? I have zero illusions of being able to play it in modern PFS, but I need me some Diabolist options!
My issue is that the way they've handled him in 2e has always been a change from how they did it in 1e, where LN Asmodeus worshipers were at least theoretically supported.I believe the official line from Paizo was something to the effect of "LN worshippers of Asmodeus were a lore error that needed correcting, since Asmodeus is *supposed* to be one of the main 2 big bads of the setting."
Dispater is always there for when you want to be a kinder, friendlier devil worshiper, after all.
Yeah, but the moral ambiguity seems like a good strategy for a corrupting influence that tries to present itself as acceptable.
For every LN cleric Asmodeus give leeway to, he gets to have 5 LE clerics running around with minimal suspicion.
You can then argue that Asmodeus later does a "I have changed deal. Pray (to me) i don't alter it further" moment and cut off LN clerics once he gets into a dominant position in a target world.
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It's been said a thousand times before, but Asmodeus allows anyone to worship him, but if you want some of that divine mojo you have to get with the program, and the program isn't very nice. Nobody can detect evil anymore, so it doesn't even matter if he requires sanctification to unholy. When Asmodeans want a good public image, they just have to pull the affably evil act. "Unholy? Why yes, I am, but unholy isn't really that bad, is it? Do I seem like a bad person to you? Come, we can both get something we want out of this deal." and rope everyone and everything into the subjugation of the literal Devil at the end of the day.
On that tangent, I don't actually feel like it should be any difficult to play a Chelaxian. Just because Asmodeus is the state religion doesn't mean that everyone is devout or faithful to him. Lipservice is probably the single most common religion in Cheliax among the laity, so it's not like you have to play a special rebel just to be from Cheliax. This is to say nothing of the fact that the other archdevils explicitly are worshipped in numbers in Cheliax, even if Dispater doesn't own the souls of the entire country like Asmodeus does.
I mean, fair enough, "I play a devil worshipper who isn't actually evil" is a pretty cool character concept to have lost, but at some point you have to acknowledge that if you're worshipping devils in a setting that says devils are objectively one of the big evils of the setting, you are unambiguously siding with the villains--which can be absolutely fine in most games except Pathfinder Society is not about or for playing villains, even well-intentioned ones.
I always understood that Pharasma doesn't care too much if someone tries to become immortal outside of being undead. The undead don't concern her because they are existing without their souls being judged--Death only needs to win once, after all--the undead concern her because the void energy is eroding their souls, and it's their souls that eventually become quintessence that replenishes the planes and keeps them from being washed away by the Maelstrom.
That seems a little bit contradictory with the lore around the Lady of the North Star, but the problem there might be the Lady's secrets would make immortality commonplace.
Pharasma's always been okay with individuals becoming immortal, when that was their destiny as she used to know what that was. Now that the Omens are lost, she's a little more uncomfortable with the whole idea since she can't tell whether some yahoo seeking immortality being the next Irori or Nethys.
So she can't make it *impossible* otherwise she would have prevented several people from becoming deities, but she can make sure it is very difficult.
Pharasma's always been okay with individuals becoming immortal, when that was their destiny as she used to know what that was. Now that the Omens are lost, she's a little more uncomfortable with the whole idea since she can't tell whether some yahoo seeking immortality being the next Irori or Nethys.
So she can't make it *impossible* otherwise she would have prevented several people from becoming deities, but she can make sure it is very difficult, as anybody whose destiny is to become immortal will still find a way.
I am going to be interested in how the other divine beings are written in light of Divine Mysteries.