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Hi, I was just looking through Player Core's Wizards, and I got to ask, because I want to make sure it's not just me:
Anyone else feel a Wizard should get their Advanced School Spell without having to use a feat? I mean, both sample Wizards list Advanced School Spell as their 8th feat. I feel that, if a School's Advanced School Spell is an ideal part of every build, I feel like it should be a feature rather than a feat.
So why not just give Wizards their Advanced School Spell at 8th level?
Some are decent or good, but several of them are pointless or situational enough that being able to exchange that portion of your power budget for something else is more of a positive than a negative.
I dislike that this is true, but it is true as the focus spells exist now.
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I will go on record as saying scrambling body was made much worse as a focus spell by making it target fortitude instead of AC, and it was an outlier pre-master, taking two actions, that makes it a bit weird all around for the wizard.
I had a necromancer in a Slithering campaign that used call of the grave to obliterate Oozes, so I can't say the old version was universally bad, but the new one still having no success effect, and only sickening 1 on a failure makes it a really bad focus spell. The fact that the advanced focus spell for the Protean Form school is also just like five rank 1 focus spells smashed into one rank 4 focus spell makes it lack luster as an option that costs a feat. I'll come back to trashing on Protean Form later, because the whole shapechanging wizard thing is a massive PF2 trap and has been since the start of the edition.
Force bolt is under-rated until you have a caster that can use it, and you start to realize how much damage a wizard can do by throwing down top slot 1 action force barrages as a third action activity. Then you realize that wizards with a lot of top slots (like a spell blender) can probably have enough top/ top rank -1 slots to basically do what force bolt does every combat of significance anyway, and the focus spell re-loses its luster because it is not really giving you something new to do that your spell slots cant. Energy absorption though can prevent a whole lot of damage as it hightens so well.
Civic wizardry's focus spells are not bad, but won't win every fight. I had an illusionist who used the warped terrain version a lot. The requiring a save to disbelieve was nice, but it meant that one action could negate the whole thing. Earthworks is pretty much never going to be worth trying to clear by spending actions to remove 5ft sections. So a one action action focus spell that can often steal an action or more from enemies (moving through 10ft of difficult terrain is a lot) shouldn't be under valued, but if your allies tend to rush ahead anyway then you aren't going to get a lot of use out of it. At 3 actions, and with a party that will wait, you can rob a lot of actions from multiple/slow enemies, especially if you have a lot of forced movement on your team (oh hey look, the curriculum spells support that pretty well!). It can also not do much if your party doesn't anticipate you using it.
Mentalisms are both solid and don't really need much defense.
Fortify summoning. This one has a lot of haters. When I played a Summoner, I tended to use summons outside of rooms/down hallways, and would pre-buff them before opening doors. having a summon active for 5 or 6 rounds is almost always plenty and the +1 status bonus to all checks and DCs is pretty great for getting as much use as you can out of things like giant skunks and dragon breath. Also, I wish that more care would have gone into thinking through how it interacts with incarnate spells in the remaster. Those didn't exist when the focus spell language was first developed, but notice it doesn't mention the summmoned or minion trait, just a creature you have summoned, language that appears in the incarnate trait description. It is a creature that you have summoned. But that is nebulous language that many GMs will balk at, even though you could only use it on the depart action, and it would still cost you an extra action to boost the DC, so it isn't really overpowered, but it would be nice if that got cleared up as something that you are supposed to be able to do with fortify summoning or not. The other big knock against Fortify summoning is that it only works after you have cast a spell from a spell slot, and is only really valuable with top slots, so it feels like it could have been a feat action instead of a focus spell, since only getting to use focus spells 4 to 8 times a day (and that assumes all summoning spells in top slots) is pretty rough. Spiral of horrors is awesome though and totally worth the ride for.
So generally, I just don't think the focus spells collectively are as bad as people make out, but they can be so style defining to use regularly that it can be a challenge to make many of them match up with the common way many people play casters as blasters from the back or buffers/debuffers who have to use reach spell a lot and struggle to find the actions for their focus spells.
As a response to why not advanced focus spells for free at 8th level? Well, 8th level (and every even level) really isn't the place to get class features for free, and almost all casters pay for additional focus spells with feats. 7th level is already too stacked for Wizards to get an additional free focus spell that is better than anything they already have, and 9th is pretty late to get it. Also, I wouldn't want to lose anything from being a wizard to get my advanced focus spell for free, and there are wizards who would much rather take Bond conservation (almost all universalists), or Knowledge is Power (especially if you are playing in a FA game and maybe already have 2 or 3 focus points/spells from Archetyping).
It is pretty wild that Form Retention made it into the remastery without a change though. The Transmuter/shapechanger/Primordial Form wizard in PF2 has gotten absolutely trashed and the fact that Druid gets the same feat only better 4 levels early is a pretty good indicator that there has to be some conflict internally about whether wizards should be able to focus on shapechanging at all, or if that is just now a druid thing. Like if shapechanging wizard was what I was really excited about as a player, I would be absolutely enraged at the state of things too. I just don't really care about shape changing spells except for use to get some immediate out of combat utility abilities, and the fact that they mostly prevent you from casting spells really makes them feel like 3 spell slot casters spells, not 4 slot caster spells, at least to my play style. Having a feat like that in the wizard list though does make it a massive trap option, especially because a wizard could multi class into druid and take Form Control at exactly the same level and be much better at shape changing than the wizard who didn't. I guess the big limitation there is that it only works with the untamed form focus spell, which means you will not be able to use it on any kind of strong flying battle form until very high level, but you already have the ability to turn into something like a sparrow for an hour through the rank 4 pest form spell, so its not that big of a set back.
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This is a lot of words to say 'yeah, schools suck unless all the options land right for you and the core rulebook ones don't for most people'
Seriously, most people run stuff primarily from the core rulebook. If core Wizard sucks the class sucks, regardless if they will one day print a actually good uncommon wizard school in a AP. That was the main issue with premaster Witch - the only patrons with hex cantrips that actually work were both non-core (Mosquito and Baba Yaga) and everyone agreed that yeah, that was a problem.
And yes delay printing anything that gives schools an actual identity likewise means they might as well don't exist, too. If it's 'better' for remaster wizard to have schools that don't matter beyond the focus spells they should have just.. done that. 4 slot prepared caster, schools spells are just bonus spells known.
That isn't what I was saying though. The free spells known (that you can only cast with your extra curriculum spell slot) you get from your school are not a big deal, but they are nice, and many of the schools have very thoughtful ones that play well into the theme of the school and what you get for your focus spells, since wizard focus spells are designed around casting spells from spell slots in the same turn. The flexibility of "talk to your GM about switching out curriculum spells" doesn't mean the curriculum spell lists are meaningless and shouldn't exist. They really help GMs understand what spells might fit into the curriculum in place of one or two spells. It would be a pretty big burden on the players and the GMs to not have any narrative guidance on what curriculum spells a school should generally offer to make a coherent theme.
The generalist got done dirty, as usual.
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Actually, I just had an interesting thought about a way to improve wizards without altering the class (and could support Magus too, since they also use a spellbook):
Magic Spellbooks.
Sort of like magic weapons for Wizards and other prepared casters that use spellbooks, they provide a passive bonus to certain aspects of spells. Nothing gamebreaking, but like a small buff on spells with certain traits like:
+1 bonus to spells water/fire/ that use spell attack rolls.
-1 to enemy saves on Illusion spells.
And other (MINOR) bonuses to the Wizard that uses the book. Oh, and you can't benefit from more than one Magic Spellbook at a time.
I don't, just throwing this out there. Should I make a separate thread for this idea? Let me know.
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Actually, I just had an interesting thought about a way to improve wizards without altering the class (and could support Magus too, since they also use a spellbook):
Magic Spellbooks.
Sort of like magic weapons for Wizards and other prepared casters that use spellbooks, they provide a passive bonus to certain aspects of spells. Nothing gamebreaking, but like a small buff on spells with certain traits like:
+1 bonus to spells water/fire/ that use spell attack rolls.
-1 to enemy saves on Illusion spells.
And other (MINOR) bonuses to the Wizard that uses the book. Oh, and you can't benefit from more than one Magic Spellbook at a time.I don't, just throwing this out there. Should I make a separate thread for this idea? Let me know.
I like the idea of spells gaining some benefit when prepared from an enchanted spellbook.
And your right that idea can be added in a book that adds new magic items.Maybe cool things like wand of shardstorm's effect on magic missiles prepared with this spell book or magic armor automatically applied for the day after preparing that morning with the spellbook?
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Actually, I just had an interesting thought about a way to improve wizards without altering the class (and could support Magus too, since they also use a spellbook):
Magic Spellbooks.
Sort of like magic weapons for Wizards and other prepared casters that use spellbooks, they provide a passive bonus to certain aspects of spells. Nothing gamebreaking, but like a small buff on spells with certain traits like:
+1 bonus to spells water/fire/ that use spell attack rolls.
-1 to enemy saves on Illusion spells.
And other (MINOR) bonuses to the Wizard that uses the book. Oh, and you can't benefit from more than one Magic Spellbook at a time.I don't, just throwing this out there. Should I make a separate thread for this idea? Let me know.
I like the idea of spells gaining some benefit when prepared from an enchanted spellbook.
And your right that idea can be added in a book that adds new magic items.Maybe cool things like wand of shardstorm's effect on magic missiles prepared with this spell book or magic armor automatically applied for the day after preparing that morning with the spellbook?
Yeah, something like that. Admittedly, I'm not sure how it would affect balancing, since it was an idea that just popped into my head. My thought process was like:
1st) Wizards could use something more than "I went to college!"2nd) Wizards cast spells by preparing them from a spellbook.
3rd) In a large number of media, spellbooks are often portrayed being just as, or even more, magical as the wizards that use them.
4th) Why not have there be magical spellbooks that give Wizards passive benefits for preparing spells out of them?
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That isn't what I was saying though. The free spells known (that you can only cast with your extra curriculum spell slot) you get from your school are not a big deal, but they are nice
They're not nice, they are mechanically necessary to enable the restriction inherent with the curriculum slot. Otherwise you would run into siutations where a player might not know any of the spells their latest spell slot is restricted to. It's realistically the only way to make the restriction work without running the risk of making it a slot you could not prepare things in.
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Yeah, something like that. Admittedly, I'm not sure how it would affect balancing, since it was an idea that just popped into my head. My thought process was like:
1st) Wizards could use something more than "I went to college!"
2nd) Wizards cast spells by preparing them from a spellbook.
3rd) In a large number of media, spellbooks are often portrayed being just as, or even more, magical as the wizards that use them.
4th) Why not have there be magical spellbooks that give Wizards passive benefits for preparing spells out of them?
I'm honestly suprised we haven't got a Tome specific familiar yet. A sentient book floating around seems right up the Wizard's ally.
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I'm honestly suprised we haven't got a Tome specific familiar yet. A sentient book floating around seems right up the Wizard's ally.
I actually did something like that, but using an inscribed one witch. Took tough, construct and flight. Played it like a wizard who found a sentient spell book. Worked well.
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So, after looking over the Wizard's loadout and feats, I feel like there are two problems with the Wizard:
(Note, before I begin, a disclaimer: I'm not super experienced with Pathfinder 2e, so take EVERYTHING I am about to say with a PLANET sized grain of salt)
Problem Number 1:
While Wizards have some great options and tricks... it doesn't really gain ones that are unique to Wizard until level 6, and doesn't gain any that aren't specific until level 10. Meaning that, in a low level game, a Wizard is not really going to look that attractive even compared to other Prepared Casters. Which honestly reminds me of a line I once heard regarding wizards: "The Wizard is the biggest example of be careful who you make fun of in magic school."
Admittedly, this can also mean that the Wizard is a great choice for archetypes (for games that don't use the free Archetype rule).
Problem Number 2:
Pretty much everything about the Wizard (class features and feats) are utterly dependent on their spell slots. Only a small number of things about wizards doesn't directly relate to their spell slots (the familiar thesis, and a small number of feats), which basically makes it feel like the Wizard becomes useless once they've run out, whereas other Prepared Casters have options outside their spell slots. Which just makes Wizard seem less attractive.
(Again, this is all my opinion. And it's not one build from experience, just inference. I welcome any criticism.)
I actually did something like that, but using an inscribed one witch. Took tough, construct and flight. Played it like a wizard who found a sentient spell book. Worked well.I'm honestly suprised we haven't got a Tome specific familiar yet. A sentient book floating around seems right up the Wizard's ally.
Neat. What did you name the book familiar?
Neat. What did you name the book familiar?
Was it me, I would have named it "Gutenburg". :)
Does anyone know where in the rules it says a spontaneous caster can use higher rank slots to cast spells they know at lower ranks without heightening them? i cant find anything saying they can do that.
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Does anyone know where in the rules it says a spontaneous caster can use higher rank slots to cast spells they know at lower ranks without heightening them? i cant find anything saying they can do that.
First off... I think you might be in the wrong thread.
Here's the link for Archives of Nethys:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2225&Redirected=1
...On a related note: how do you put a link in posts as an actual link and not just text?
Does anyone know where in the rules it says a spontaneous caster can use higher rank slots to cast spells they know at lower ranks without heightening them? i cant find anything saying they can do that.First off... I think you might be in the wrong thread.
Here's the link for Archives of Nethys:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2225&Redirected=1...On a related note: how do you put a link in posts as an actual link and not just text?
Thanks
use this format also shown under how to format your text
Go to Paizo Inc..
this is inside the brackets if it doesnt show above url=https://paizo.com
Just enter the url after the =
Neat. What did you name the book familiar?Was it me, I would have named it "Gutenburg". :)
It was a one-shot so I just called it “book”.