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I waited for whole ap to be out in case its explained at some point, but I still haven't noticed if it was:
Was the cythnoporian in gift seedbag a complete unfortunate accident or was that on purpose by someone else?
It was a deliberate attack, by an unknown assailant. The response from Andrew White:
"Who Did the Thing? OK, I’ll take responsibility for this one. Our story outline didn’t specify who was responsible for the attack, and in fact advised against providing anything more than circumstantial evidence at the scene, since the whole purpose of the inciting event was to set everyone at each other’s throats by making it unclear who was to blame. Initially, one of the quests I wrote for Chapter 2 did involve the PCs tracking down the culprit, only to discover that it was a random act of terrorism committed over a personal grudge that had nothing to do with Andoran, Taldor, Zibik, or the Lodge – but the individual responsible would be killed in the confrontation, leaving the PCs without sufficient proof to convince any of the various factions who’d already decided who they wanted to hold responsible. That quest ended up getting cut for space, because it didn’t move the Unrest needle in any meaningful way and wasn’t really what Chapter 2 was supposed to be about anyway (see below), and was replaced by some evidence the PCs could discover that would implicate an NPC killed in the attack whose methods and motivations would be expanded upon in Book 2. That clearly didn’t end up happening, probably also because of space limitations, so that plot thread ended up dangling unresolved forever (I think – I haven’t read Book 3 yet). Our intention was to create a “when the house is on fire, figuring out who lit the match is secondary at best to extinguishing the flames” scenario, but I totally sympathize with the frustration over never actually getting that answer, even if knowing it ultimately wouldn’t have changed anything."
I want no spoilers (no specifics at least) but please tell me this gets resolved book 3, otherwise I may have to specify to our GM that there may be some loose ends they’re gonna have to tie
I want no spoilers (no specifics at least) but please tell me this gets resolved book 3, otherwise I may have to specify to our GM that there may be some loose ends they’re gonna have to tie
There is never a resolution. You never find out who caused the attack or why the massacre even happened, no one takes or claims responsibility and Andoran and Taldor never get involved. Book 3 is interesting to say the least your GM will need to do work for this AP in my opinion.
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From a "reality is messy and complicated" (even in a TTRPG) narrative standpoint, I think the "random act of terrorism" being the spark that started the inferno makes total sense. If anything, it increases the potential heroism of the PCs as they work to fix both the resulting problems and the underlying tensions that caused things to go off the rails; not having a simple "kill the BBEG who is the source of all the problems" solution requires more effort.
Kinda wish they just established the fact that it was a random act of terrorism tho.
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Kinda wish they just established the fact that it was a random act of terrorism tho.
I really like this AP despite it's many inconsistencies... I might add something to build on this.
Thinking about running an 'evil' party alongside the main party which might be able to resolve some of these 'concerns' worried that the guys would be more excited about their evil pcs than their good ones.
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I do find it wild its never mentioned directly in any of the books what was up with inciting event, but not surprised to hear it was random act of violence that was going to be cleared up in quest that got cut because it was pacing wise out of place :O
It's suggested in
was wondering if the potential culprit might be able to lead the party into NIGHT OF THE GREY DEATH?
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To be honest, I'm agog that this piece of information was cut for space. This is a detail that the PCs will absolutely obsess over; "who killed Valenar and what is their plot" is something they as players need to find out at some point, even if it is just a random grudge. And as a DM, I needed to know if this dangling plot thread is something I need to hold onto because it would come back in book 3.
I still very much enjoy the campaign, but I hope editors make different value judgements in the future. Prismati or Flyting could have been greatly simplified or cut entirely to make space for this kind of important information.
Still also feels weird to have a canonically level 15 druid get oneshot by a level 8 monster? I fully thought that there HAD to be a bigger plot because of that. Like maybe Valenar had been brainwhammied by Ayrzul or something? I love the idea of this being random pettiness, but the execution was fumbled here.
totally concur.
there's a few data points that an intrepid DM can build on [add any that I missed]:
1 - his soul doesn't want to be resurrected
2 - the Taldans skeedaddled immediately [except for the ones who remained on the island for whatever reason in Book 3???]
3 - a bipedal humanoid presumably took the weapon
4 - same bipedal humanoid knew where / what it was
5 - somehow a map to the bunker falls into the possession of an ally
This is the central THING that happens. It propels not only book 1, but b/c it creates the BBEG [was this intentional???] it moves the whole AP forward.
There isn't even a mention of resolving the plotline in the 'continuing the campaign' section.
I'd really like to run this AP, but cutting this out is just... I know my players won't ignore it like the AP itself seems to do.
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To be honest, I'm agog that this piece of information was cut for space. This is a detail that the PCs will absolutely obsess over; "who killed Valenar and what is their plot" is something they as players need to find out at some point, even if it is just a random grudge. And as a DM, I needed to know if this dangling plot thread is something I need to hold onto because it would come back in book 3.
I still very much enjoy the campaign, but I hope editors make different value judgements in the future. Prismati or Flyting could have been greatly simplified or cut entirely to make space for this kind of important information.
Still also feels weird to have a canonically level 15 druid get oneshot by a level 8 monster? I fully thought that there HAD to be a bigger plot because of that. Like maybe Valenar had been brainwhammied by Ayrzul or something? I love the idea of this being random pettiness, but the execution was fumbled here.
I agree with all of this.
In regards to Ayrzul. I am 100% using tying that into the death. As I want the whole blighted corruption thing of Ayrzul to play a more dramatic role for I am changing Ruzadoya from a graveknight(aka an Undead being that most druids should logically not follow) to a champion of Zibik that has been infected and corrupted by Ayrzul's blight.
As for who did this I am not sure. Who do you think would make good candiates? Someone from the Blackwood Moot? Lumber Consortium? Zibik cultist? something else?
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To be honest, I'm agog that this piece of information was cut for space. This is a detail that the PCs will absolutely obsess over; "who killed Valenar and what is their plot" is something they as players need to find out at some point, even if it is just a random grudge. And as a DM, I needed to know if this dangling plot thread is something I need to hold onto because it would come back in book 3.
I still very much enjoy the campaign, but I hope editors make different value judgements in the future. Prismati or Flyting could have been greatly simplified or cut entirely to make space for this kind of important information.
Still also feels weird to have a canonically level 15 druid get oneshot by a level 8 monster? I fully thought that there HAD to be a bigger plot because of that. Like maybe Valenar had been brainwhammied by Ayrzul or something? I love the idea of this being random pettiness, but the execution was fumbled here.
I agree with all of this.
In regards to Ayrzul. I am 100% using tying that into the death. As I want the whole blighted corruption thing of Ayrzul to play a more dramatic role for I am changing Ruzadoya from a graveknight(aka an Undead being that most druids should logically not follow) to a champion of Zibik that has been infected and corrupted by Ayrzul's blight.
As for who did this I am not sure. Who do you think would make good candidates? Someone from the Blackwood Moot? Lumber Consortium? Zibik cultist? something else?
I like making her a champion, thinking a desecrator?, rather than a graveknight. Dunno if I'd run it that way, but it's a good idea.
The Blackwood Moot, is, I don't think, hardly mentioned in the AP, and it's a strong candidate to have orchestrated the assassination. Another thought is maybe "the First Ghoran" ... like, some ancient creation of Ghorus who returns to the forest to resume the war?
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This bothers me too. I just know my party’s gonna think poorly on the looseness of this thread. The author could have kept the realism of the first blow’s disconnect with any broader sim or ideology. But they should communicate the point to the reader as even gritty, absurdist storytelling should emphasize the theme and inform the story DM.
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I had a thought: Make the "random act of terrorism" be one of several instigated by Treerazer (to sow discord on Tanglebriar's southern border); this can help foreshadow the upcoming Spore War AP (and possibly provide a link if one or more of the Spore War PCs is sent by the Rootweft Lodge).
The exploding seedbag won't be a central element of the Wardens of Wildwood AP (other than the initiating event), but can be used to tie two APs into a broader "story."
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I had a thought: Make the "random act of terrorism" be one of several instigated by Treerazer (to sow discord on Tanglebriar's southern border); this can help foreshadow the upcoming Spore War AP (and possibly provide a link if one or more of the Spore War PCs is sent by the Rootweft Lodge).
The exploding seedbag won't be a central element of the Wardens of Wildwood AP (other than the initiating event), but can be used to tie two APs into a broader "story."
then the party is gonna wanna go fight treerazer.
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So... I'm thinking of creating a culprit for the murder [should my group decided to run this AP] - "The First Ghoran" some kind of Wood Elemental who Ghorus summoned and based his later projects on.
It's returned (and allied with the Blackwood Moot?)... and our intrepid heroes did SOMETHING when they were getting to 5th level which sort of sets the plot in motion.
Ideas on what that SOMETHING might be?
This bothers me too. I just know my party’s gonna think poorly on the looseness of this thread. The author could have kept the realism of the first blow’s disconnect with any broader sim or ideology. But they should communicate the point to the reader as even gritty, absurdist storytelling should emphasize the theme and inform the story DM.
I agree with this fully. The problem that keeps reoccurring throughout this adventure path is that we're constantly kept in the dark as the DM. I've mentioned this in my feedback in Niktorak's thread as well as the prep sessions in my youtube channel. Book 3 worsens with the backmatter, and I can't go into spoilers here.
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This bothers me too. I just know my party’s gonna think poorly on the looseness of this thread. The author could have kept the realism of the first blow’s disconnect with any broader sim or ideology. But they should communicate the point to the reader as even gritty, absurdist storytelling should emphasize the theme and inform the story DM.
I agree with this fully. The problem that keeps reoccurring throughout this adventure path is that we're constantly kept in the dark as the DM. I've mentioned this in my feedback in Niktorak's thread as well as the prep sessions in my youtube channel. Book 3 worsens with the backmatter, and I can't go into spoilers here.
the very mechanism of the REALLY IMPORTANT transformation of the BBEG isn't written out.
I REALLY LIKE the concept and spirit of this AP. But the deeper I dive into it, the more I realize that running it would lead me to spending enormous amounts of time building out side quests, alternate encounters, adding even more NPCs, re-statting villains, diving into spell / item / artifact lists... heck, there aren't even maps for ... the majority of encounters [???] and many of those provided are painfully small. Shouldn't this have been a "bring your bear" AP?
I dunno. Wrapping up [fingers crossed] our 1E AP this week. I'll see what my players think.
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From everything that I’ve heard about the AP so far, I am displeased. And I want Paizo to know that.
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I have spent the better part of an hour poring through all three volumes trying to work out who sabotaged the gala, before thinking to check here. How the GM is supposed to resolve this without making massive changes to the campaign as written is beyond me. Either Ruzadoya is the mastermind and does not get turned into a graveknight since she knows what's coming, or Zibik is much more hostile and pro-active than presented in the adventure. Either option would require massive re-writes to make sense.
I'm flabbergasted this was overlooked.
EDIT: Ok, how about this. Ruzadoya is responsible (possibly working with a third party), but her sister Vandalya is not aware of her intent. When the seedbag erupts, Vandalya is killed. Ruzadoya is overcome with rage and guilt, and proceeds with her plan to take over the Wildwood Lodge as written, blaming everyone but herself for her sister's fate.
EDIT 2: Maybe Vandalya is the one to come back as a graveknight, working with Ruzadoya without realizing who is responsible for her death. If the PCs can proove her sister's guilt, she fights along the PCs to defeat Ruzadoya.
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I have spent the better part of an hour poring through all three volumes trying to work out who sabotaged the gala, before thinking to check here. How the GM is supposed to resolve this without making massive changes to the campaign as written is beyond me. Either Ruzadoya is the mastermind and does not get turned into a graveknight since she knows what's coming, or Zibik is much more hostile and pro-active than presented in the adventure. Either option would require massive re-writes to make sense.
I'm flabbergasted this was overlooked.
EDIT: Ok, how about this. Ruzadoya is responsible (possibly working with a third party), but her sister Vandalya is not aware of her intent. When the seedbag erupts, Vandalya is killed. Ruzadoya is overcome with rage and guilt, and proceeds with her plan to take over the Wildwood Lodge as written, blaming everyone but herself for her sister's fate.
EDIT 2: Maybe Vandalya is the one to come back as a graveknight, working with Ruzadoya without realizing who is responsible for her death. If the PCs can prove her sister's guilt, she fights along the PCs to defeat Ruzadoya.
I was thinking about running this AP, but I keep coming back to the fact that my players would side with the BBEG at the end of Book 1.
This really would have been a great opportunity for Paizo to put out an 'evil' AP. Henchmen for the BBEG, doing horrible things to those who threaten the forest.
This really would have been a great opportunity for Paizo to put out an 'evil' AP. Henchmen for the BBEG, doing horrible things to those who threaten the forest.
They already published Blood Lords for PF2...
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This really would have been a great opportunity for Paizo to put out an 'evil' AP. Henchmen for the BBEG, doing horrible things to those who threaten the forest.They already published Blood Lords for PF2...
Blood Lords is basically Parks and Recreation meets a Nightmare Before Christmas
It's hardly an 'evil' AP.
You can be an "evil" PC, but there's no evil being done.
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I am so disheartened to hear this. The promised theme and gist had me drooling for WoW, but the more I read on the forums, the more disappointed I am. The whole "the match isn't as important as stopping the wildfire" is a huge fallacy. It's what kicks off, well, everything. Calming down the fallout is important, yes; but finding who's responsible is equally important.
To put it on a smaller scale (and this might not be the best of analogies, I grant), look at it this way. You and your family/friends save money ALL YEAR to go on vacation. Someone steals all that money. You work hard to regain funds and go... but are you really going to say "oh well, we still don't know who took it, but whatever, it all worked out"?
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I am so disheartened to hear this. The promised theme and gist had me drooling for WoW, but the more I read on the forums, the more disappointed I am. The whole "the match isn't as important as stopping the wildfire" is a huge fallacy. It's what kicks off, well, everything. Calming down the fallout is important, yes; but finding who's responsible is equally important.
To put it on a smaller scale (and this might not be the best of analogies, I grant), look at it this way. You and your family/friends save money ALL YEAR to go on vacation. Someone steals all that money. You work hard to regain funds and go... but are you really going to say "oh well, we still don't know who took it, but whatever, it all worked out"?
i think the bones are there for a really solid AP, but the enterprising DM is going to have to do some additional work and make sure that he approaches it in the right way.
This really would have been a great opportunity for Paizo to put out an 'evil' AP. Henchmen for the BBEG, doing horrible things to those who threaten the forest.They already published Blood Lords for PF2...Blood Lords is basically Parks and Recreation meets a Nightmare Before Christmas
It's hardly an 'evil' AP.
You can be an "evil" PC, but there's no evil being done.
Yes exactly. I wanted Paizo to GO HARD on the Blood Lords AP, and they didn't deliver anything close. Way too cautious, politically correct, and comedic. Come on! Let us light a match, trigger a new conflict, be the ones responsible for some bad things in the setting! But no. Let's just save people and avoid war. As usual. Lol
This really would have been a great opportunity for Paizo to put out an 'evil' AP. Henchmen for the BBEG, doing horrible things to those who threaten the forest.
Would be interesting to have good vs good conflicts, something we've not seen.
Verduran forest vs. Andoran for example, would have been nice.
Mendev vs Sarkoris. Or an AP fighting the Firebrands where you put them in jail or bury them. Something a bit more controversial.
I still felt like the death of the god they chose and for the reasoning they chose was pulling punches, so I'm hoping after 6 years we can see some good factions take a punch to the face for once, no matter who delivers the blow! Can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs!