So... just wanted to see if there was any clarification regarding having (different) natural attacks using the same limb? I.e.: Gore and Bite both using the head, Claw/Pincer/Slam all using arms, and Tail Slap/Sting both using tail (Got that last one from an Eidolon threat that never got a complete answer yet).
How exactly are natural attacks of different types ruled when using the same limb? The closest FAQ I could find references the hypothetical of having x2 Bite Attacks rather than a Bite Attack and a Gore attack or a Claw and Slam attack.
To my knowledge there is absolutely no rules for this. There are official statblocks with creatures having multiple different NAs on the same body part (gore with horn + bite is rather common), and also at least one with bite+gore form the same mouth (hybrid form Wereboar)). Stat blocks don't make rules, of course, and are known to be erroneous.
The closest FAQ I could find references the hypothetical of having x2 Bite Attacks rather than a Bite Attack and a Gore attack or a Claw and Slam attack.
Which oen do you mean? I don't know of any FAQ that actually addresses this. We have the claws vs talons FAQ, but that doesn't actually say you can't have two claws on a single hand.
I mean, the rules are clearly written with the unwritten "common sense means you can't hate the same NA more than once per body part" rule in mind, but nothing actually says this. No one thinks that a human Lesser Abyssal Blood + Lesser Beast Totem Barbarian should get four claws, but RAW?
The FAQ that is being referred to is this one.
Half-Orc--Toothy: Does this alternate racial trait stack with the Razortusk feat (page 168) granting you two bite attacks?
This is one of those areas where we tried to get at the same idea multiple ways. In this case, the answer is no, unless you somehow manage to get an extra mouth. Generally speaking, natural weapons can only be used once per round each. This also applies to the Animal Fury barbarian rage power (Core Rulebook, page 32).
This thread was started in response to a discussion on this topic in the Advice forum. Part of that discussion was if it was possible to gain multiple attacks on the same limb can u make multiple natural attacks from the same limb as part of a full attack action or are you limited to one attack per limb. It was also a discussion on a build for a character meant for PFS if that’s relevant to the question.
The problem that I am currently having with the Manufactured + Natural Attacks rules as stated in the Attack Action rules is that it specifically calls out the Manufactured Weapon being used rather than just referencing different Natural Attacks using the same limb. (i.e.: "For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.")
This also brings up the issue that several existing monsters have attacks that conflict with this ruling, such as Gore + Bite both using head, Claw + Slam / Pincer + Slam both using Hand. So it's hard for me to argue with people who use it in my group when there are examples of these monsters that don't fit the ruling.
Probably too late to ask Paizo to make an FAQ on which Natural Attack is attached to which limb and which attacks can/can't be stacked on each other. Especially when the group I play with has practically ran out of replay credits and Paizo is dead set on letting 1e society fizzle out without granting more replays credits. lol
The problem that I am currently having with the Manufactured + Natural Attacks rules as stated in the Attack Action rules is that it specifically calls out the Manufactured Weapon being used rather than just referencing different Natural Attacks using the same limb. (i.e.: "For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.")
This also brings up the issue that several existing monsters have attacks that conflict with this ruling, such as Gore + Bite both using head, Claw + Slam / Pincer + Slam both using Hand. So it's hard for me to argue with people who use it in my group when there are examples of these monsters that don't fit the ruling.
Probably too late to ask Paizo to make an FAQ on which Natural Attack is attached to which limb and which attacks can/can't be stacked on each other. Especially when the group I play with has practically ran out of replay credits and Paizo is dead set on letting 1e society fizzle out without granting more replays credits. lol
You can use the same body part in some situations, however no monster used the exact same location on the body that I can recall.
As an example a bite attack uses the mouth, and a gore attack would use the head.
I don't know of any monsters that claws and slams from the same limbs.
What monsters are using "Claw + Slam / Pincer + Slam" from the exactl same "hand"?
edit:Sadly they are not doing anymore FAQ's. They didn't even keep up with FAQ's when PF1 was the only system they had to support. I appreciate what they did do, but I still feel like they dropped the ball on some of the easier questions.
The FAQ that is being referred to is this one.
Half-Orc--Toothy: Does this alternate racial trait stack with the Razortusk feat (page 168) granting you two bite attacks?
This is one of those areas where we tried to get at the same idea multiple ways. In this case, the answer is no, unless you somehow manage to get an extra mouth. Generally speaking, natural weapons can only be used once per round each. This also applies to the Animal Fury barbarian rage power (Core Rulebook, page 32).
Huh, I did not know that FAQ. Thank you!
It's amazing how much they managed to not make a general ruling here, and I'm in awe how the sentence "Generally speaking, natural weapons can only be used once per round each." is able to simultaneously sound on-topic yet not doanything.
Still, it's a "close enough to RAW" on at least that front.
You can use the same body part in some situations, however no monster used the exact same location on the body that I can recall.
I already linked one above, the hybrid form wereboar, which uses teeth for bite and gore.
generally with this kind of thing if there isn't a Rule allowing it, it is not allowed.
The options say you gain natural weapons, and the general rules say "you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack" CRB pg. 182. The problem is that nothing definies where one body part ends. This is really a case where you need a rule to disallow it.
The FAQ that is being referred to is this one.
Half-Orc--Toothy: Does this alternate racial trait stack with the Razortusk feat (page 168) granting you two bite attacks?
This is one of those areas where we tried to get at the same idea multiple ways. In this case, the answer is no, unless you somehow manage to get an extra mouth. Generally speaking, natural weapons can only be used once per round each. This also applies to the Animal Fury barbarian rage power (Core Rulebook, page 32).
Huh, I did not know that FAQ. Thank you!
It's amazing how much they managed to not make a general ruling here, and I'm in awe how the sentence "Generally speaking, natural weapons can only be used once per round each." is able to simultaneously sound on-topic yet not doanything.
Still, it's a "close enough to RAW" on at least that front.
You can use the same body part in some situations, however no monster used the exact same location on the body that I can recall.I already linked one above, the hybrid form wereboar, which uses teeth for bite and gore.
generally with this kind of thing if there isn't a Rule allowing it, it is not allowed.The options say you gain natural weapons, and the general rules say "you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack" CRB pg. 182. The problem is that nothing definies where one body part ends. This is really a case where you need a rule to disallow it.
I already accounted for the bite and gore in my comment.
You can use the same body part in some situations, however no monster used the exact same location on the body that I can recall.
As an example a bite attack uses the mouth, and a gore attack would use the head.
However I accidentally erased some text that tied all that together in a manner that made sense. So that's my fault.
What I'm looking for is a claw/pincer/slam combo(2 out of 3) on the same limb.
What monsters are using "Claw + Slam / Pincer + Slam" from the exactl same "hand"?
edit:Sadly they are not doing anymore FAQ's. They didn't even keep up with FAQ's when PF1 was the only system they had to support. I appreciate what they did do, but I still feel like they dropped the ball on some of the easier questions.
I didn't go far into in-depth searching, just enough to find one example for Claw/Slam and Pincer/Slam. Nachzehrer (PAP #119) has both a Claw attack and a Slam attack, which as listed on the generally accepted chart would both be an arm attack.
As for the Pincer/Claw attack, first one I was able to find was Champion Automaton (PCS: Construct Handbook) - which has both x2 Pincer attacks and x2 Slam attacks. It also has the wording which if it grabs with a Pincer, it turns into 'another' slam attack, so there isn't confusing that it has both of them. And unless I'm missing something, I only see two arms.
It might be the case that they're ruling hands and arms as separate for natural attacks just like how they're ruling mouth and horns as separate (albeit as previously stated, some Gore attacks use the mouth not the horn).
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To my knowledge there is absolutely no rules for this. There are official statblocks with creatures having multiple different NAs on the same body part (gore with horn + bite is rather common), and also at least one with bite+gore form the same mouth (hybrid form Wereboar)). Stat blocks don't make rules, of course, and are known to be erroneous.
While it can be assumed that he gores with his bite, there is no text saying what it uses to gore.
As you say, statblocks are not rules, and that statblock has a rule problem:
Melee: A lycanthrope gains natural attacks in animal and hybrid forms according to the base animal.
The wereboar gets the natural attack of a boar.
Melee gore +4 (1d8+4)
No bite attack there.
There is a piece of the template that implies that it gets a bite attack:
Curse of Lycanthropy (Su) A natural lycanthrope's bite attack in animal or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 15 negates). If the victim's size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope, this ability has no effect.
but 0 support for a rule that says that the wereboar gets to use both simultaneously.
As the bite is not a natural attack of the boar, I would either rule that the gore counts as a bite attack or that the bite attack is a separate attack that he can make as a standard action. The former interpretation seems the most logic.- * - * -
For the general question, not a rule, but something that shows how limbs are intended to work:
Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
The unwritten rule seems to be that you can make 1 attack (or iterative attack) for each limb you possess. Heads seem to be an exception, as several monsters have bite and gore or horn attacks.
- * - * -
Paizo probably has never printed a general rule because monsters have so many body shapes that it is conceivable to have something like a many-limbed spider-like creature that attacks with claws and spikes on the elbow of the same limb, or other kinds of creatures that use the same limb to deliver different attacks.
They should have written rules for player characters when they added the many ways to get additional natural attacks, but they overlooked the problems with people wanting to cram as many natural attacks as possible in a single character arsenal.
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Well, if they didn't want us to put as many natural attacks are possible on a single character, they shouldn't have made that really the only viable way to use natural attacks.
Sure, at low levels just having 2 claw attacks is great. But once you're at a level where you would get iterative attacks with a weapon, you're going to end up falling off with just claws.
And a bit off topic but on topic at the same time, I actually did manage to get all the natural weapons onto a single character. It's an unholy multiclass of Weretouched Shifter, White-Haired Witch, Wizard, and Barbarian on a Kasatha. I doubt I'll ever be allowed to play it.
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Judging from the designs in the Bestiary and People of the Stars, Kasathas have no hairs. You can't get the attack without the limb. Same thing for attacks that use a tail. You need a race with one.
It is true that to be viable a character needs several natural attacks, but some classes help with that.
While it can be assumed that he gores with his bite, there is no text saying what it uses to gore.
It's a boar. It gores with its tusks. With no game term definition, we fall back to the regular meaning of the English word, and for "gore", that's "to wound a person or another animal with a horn or tusk".
There is a piece of the template that implies that it gets a bite attack:
[...]
but 0 support for a rule that says that the wereboar gets to use both simultaneously.
The lycantropy template does not grant a bite if the animal doesnt have a bite. The bite in this stat block comes from the Animal Fury rage power that the wereboar has.
The rules say "you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack" (CRB pg. 182). A bite would be made with different teeth than the gore (it's not as if real life boars can't bite something).
Where does one body part end and another begin?
The unwritten rule seems to be that you can make 1 attack (or iterative attack) for each limb you possess.
This FAQ[/b], when making a (non-exclusive) list of body parts, has both fist and elbow. This tells us a body part is not an entire limb, but a smaller portion.
What monsters are using "Claw + Slam / Pincer + Slam" from the exactl same "hand"?
edit:Sadly they are not doing anymore FAQ's. They didn't even keep up with FAQ's when PF1 was the only system they had to support. I appreciate what they did do, but I still feel like they dropped the ball on some of the easier questions.
I didn't go far into in-depth searching, just enough to find one example for Claw/Slam and Pincer/Slam. Nachzehrer (PAP #119) has both a Claw attack and a Slam attack, which as listed on the generally accepted chart would both be an arm attack.
As for the Pincer/Claw attack, first one I was able to find was Champion Automaton (PCS: Construct Handbook) - which has both x2 Pincer attacks and x2 Slam attacks. It also has the wording which if it grabs with a Pincer, it turns into 'another' slam attack, so there isn't confusing that it has both of them. And unless I'm missing something, I only see two arms.
It might be the case that they're ruling hands and arms as separate for natural attacks just like how they're ruling mouth and horns as separate (albeit as previously stated, some Gore attacks use the mouth not the horn).
Thanks for replying. That's strange since it only has one slam attack despite having two arms. If the rules allow for two attacks per limb it should have two slam attacks in addition to the claw attacks.
I would chalk it up to this being an outlier just like how one adventure had illusions that could actually damage you despite illusions not normally being able to do so.
There's also the fact that no published eidolon does this, and I doubt it's because no dev would have thought of it if it was intended to work that way.
I've always allowed monsters to do the same thing as players so if they think this is ok they shouldn't have problems with an NPC Eidolon being able to do the same. Sometimes it's not just about what you can do as a player, but if you should do it.
After this session/campaign you may want to houserule it.
edit: As for the champion automaton it loses access to a pincer in order to have a slam attack. It's not getting the pincer and slam attack in the same way your players are trying use it with the eidolon.
@wraithstrike I think there is a misunderstanding, since I'm not DMing and don't have players. I'm asking for Society purposes, since Society doesn't allow individual rulings and requires uniformity. Hence asking for a RAW ruling or and Errata or FAQ involving this question.
Regarding the Champion Automaton; I've revisited the book and looked up the information on two separate wikis (Archive of Nethys and d20pfsrd), and while I was wrong about the number of attacks, I can confirm that it does have one Slam attack listed on it's list of Natural Attacks.
Based on the wordings for Arcane Pincer ("While holding a creature in a pincer, the champion automaton loses access to that pincer attack and gains an additional slam attack") the fact that it says an addition implies that it already had a slam attack to begin with.
That and the fact it does have a slam attack listed in it's melee attack list (2 arcane pincers +18 (2d6+12 plus grab), slam +18 (1d8+6)), so if it had someone grabbed, it would be 1 Arcane Pincer and 2 Slam attacks, and so on.
So I can see it working out one of three separate ways: (A) Slam Attacks are like Unarmed Strikes and can be used with any part of the body. (B) Slam attacks use the Arm while Claws/Pincers/Ect use the Hand and are separate 'limbs'. (C) Natural Attacks can stack on the same limb as long as they're different natural attacks and don't interrupt each other.
I'm more inclined towards C because there is also Gore/Bite in the argument and it's widely considered okay for Gore and Bite to be used together despite both being on the head.
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For slam attacks, it is mostly A).
As an example, elementals say:
"When an earth elemental lumbers into action, its actual appearance can vary, although its statistics remain identical to other elementals of its size. Most earth elementals look like terrestrial animals made out of rock, earth, or even crystal, with glowing gemstones for eyes. Larger earth elementals often have a stony humanoid appearance. Bits of vegetation frequently grow in the soil that makes up parts of an earth elemental’s body."
Zombies get an additional slam attack regardless of the conditions of the body (but they can't make full attacks).