Worked with a plan for Barbarian build of my dreams and stumbled upon this problem - AC is really low. And I mean REALLY. I can barely hit 30 notch at level 20.
How lethal it will be? I mean, I will have lots of hp, better DR from Invulnerable Rager. But still, even if I can cut down a Balor Lord with one pounce, what about his friends?
What are your thoughts? Can Barbarian survive without relying on AC?
Especially with your DR, I think you should be all right. Having some way to get to full hitpoints between fights, whether it's through a healer in party or some sort of item that gives you fast healing or regeneration, will be extremely helpful. Focus on cranking your offense as high as possible to compensate - anything that doesn't survive long enough to hit you is that much less damage to take.
This is why come and get me is the thing, you just do too much damage to die first. And you shouldn't be the only one fighting, you pounce the Balor Lord and your friends engage his friends.
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You can add some defenses, but by the level you seem to be worried about, AC is just about the worst defense you can ask for. Pump your saves with Superstition, see if you can finagle a miss chance out of your party, and make sure nothing can survive spending a round adjacent to you. And of course, start every combat at full hp. High Hp is actually enough to carry you through a lot of fights with terrible AC.
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This is why come and get me is the thing, you just do too much damage to die first. And you shouldn't be the only one fighting, you pounce the Balor Lord and your friends engage his friends.
pretty much this, there is only one class better at solo fighting that balor lord, and thats a paladin. And he is only marginally better.
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Hrm.
Mithral BP+5, AC 21.
Dex +5, AC 26.
Nat Armor +5, AC 31
Deflection=5, AC 36.
Jingasa, Luck +1 = 37
Ioun Stone, +1 Insight, = 38.
Rage powers for Nat AC, Dodge??
Why are you having problems hitting a 30 AC again? Just because you didn't buy the typical defenses?
==Aelrynth
Use a heavy shield, and get the best enhancement bonus you can afford. There are some feats you can take to increase your AC.
One thing I found playing a low-AC martial is that you're more likely to get hit by creatures with grab abilities. If you depend on a two-handed weapon, that's a problem. So make sure you have a plan for what to do if grappled.
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At high levels, miss chance and good saves are what matter. You might be able to avoid a few iteratives, but things that want to hit you will hit you. Also, you will be a party with (hopefully) synergized tactics so that while you chunkify the Balor Lord, the wizard has Mazed the lord's major domo, the archer feathered the lord's friend and dual-cursed cursed oracle Reach Plane Shifted the guy hiding in the corner.
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One thing I found playing a low-AC martial is that you're more likely to get hit by creatures with grab abilities. If you depend on a two-handed weapon, that's a problem. So make sure you have a plan for what to do if grappled.surge of strength and break free?
Rings of FoM for everyone!
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miss chance becomes less and less effective as you level, due to the prevalence of creatures with blindsight, tremorsense and true seeing.
A high AC is never a bad thing. Especially for a melee toon.
Good saves are, however, very important, but shouldn't be a problem for a barb.
==Aelryinth
Hrm.
Mithral BP+5, AC 21.
Dex +5, AC 26.
Nat Armor +5, AC 31
Deflection=5, AC 36.
Jingasa, Luck +1 = 37
Ioun Stone, +1 Insight, = 38.Rage powers for Nat AC, Dodge??
Why are you having problems hitting a 30 AC again? Just because you didn't buy the typical defenses?==Aelrynth
I just don't have those bonuses from amulet, ring, jingasa, stone.
I do have bonuses from beast totem, but -8 from rage and reckless abandon drops it down a notch.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The -8 is the problem. You've fighting uphill now to fix your AC. The name reckless abandon kinda implies that you've made a conscious choice to tank your AC.
Yep, taking Reckless Abandon basically means "I have decided that the best defense is a helluvalot of offense". Not a bad decision for a Barb. I think you should be fine.
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I remember my first barb.. haha. at level 12 I was asked what my AC was on the enemies turn. I shrugged and said "IDK, a kobold could probably hit me. I'm like, at -10 total with CAGM." thought a bit more and said "probably about an AC of 6-7"
He was dumbfounded as I went on to not only survive but wreck half the enemies :3 ah. good times. good times.
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Yeah, -8 isn't the problem, the notion of AC being important enough to pick up a shield is problem.
Just remember that you don't HAVE to always turn on Reckless Abandon. Sometimes you just hit on 2's anyway.
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Hrm.Mithral BP+5, AC 21.
Dex +5, AC 26.
Nat Armor +5, AC 31
Deflection=5, AC 36.
Jingasa, Luck +1 = 37
Ioun Stone, +1 Insight, = 38.Rage powers for Nat AC, Dodge??
Why are you having problems hitting a 30 AC again? Just because you didn't buy the typical defenses?==Aelrynth
This. Most people do not know how to stack AC or have a good idea of Purchase order. Many people tank a Barbs Dex to 10 or less.
Barbarians can survive without the AC of the Fighter/paladin. They are given a D12 hit dice and Damage Reduction. They also tend to favor Kill it before it kills me strategy.
My advice is buy the items Aelrynth mentioned to help try and stop the Iterative attacks. Damage from each attack is the same...it is the To HIT that is the difference. As for the Balor's mooks...if they hit you your DR eats a good chunk of their attacks making them more a pest than a problem.
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The problem with sword and board fighters is that they're min-maxing for the least important defense in the game. The most dangerous stuff to get hit with doesn't target your AC, it targets your saves.
I hear this sentiment a lot, and I sometimes wonder if am playing the same game as the people who say it.
They are generally the same people who haven't been one rounded by a full attacking enemy cause of crappy AC. heh.
AC is actually more relevant at higher levels then miss chances. But saves, yeah, insta-gibb missed saves are indeed more important then AC. It's the main reason why you don't play a high level fighter, and are reeeeeeal careful with a high level ranger.
barbs get around it by juicing their DR to the level where they are taking so much less damage, it doesn't matter that they are getting hit.
The hit die is +1 pt/level over other melees...basically immaterial. Their staying power comes from Con bonuses from raging, and the DR to magnify the effect of those extra HP.
Of course, it also helps when you have CAGM and kill the enemy on their turn.
==Aelryinth
Depends where the miss chances come from. They're not all (in)visibility.
blindsight and tremorsense ignore them regardless, and true sight most of the time. Pretty much the only ones that true sight won't ignore is natural darkness and fog, the latter is extremely rare and the former immaterial.
==Aelryinth
I don't think tremorsense does anything to negate miss chances.
aaaand exactly why would you be susceptible to miss chances, which are based on visibility, when basically your extended sense of touch is doing the spotting?
==Aelryinth
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aaaand exactly why would you be susceptible to miss chances, which are based on visibility, when basically your sense of touch is doing the spotting?
==Aelryinth
Because tremorsense is like blindsense: It gives you the square, but does not see clearly. You need a theoretical "tremorsight" to negate miss chance with touch senses.
hmm, the language it uses is 'pinpoints location' not pinpoint square. I always treated it as far more accurate then Scent, because you know exactly where he is. Mirror Images dancing around his footprints aren't going to distract you, and invisibility isn't going to conceal those things. He's not in 'this area', he's exactly RIGHT THERE.
Meh. Debatable. I've never played it like Scent, however.
==Aelryinth
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hmm, the language it uses is 'pinpoints location' not pinpoint square. I always treated it as far more accurate then Scent, because you know exactly where he is. Mirror Images dancing around his footprints aren't going to distract you, and invisibility isn't going to conceal those things. He's not in 'this area', he's exactly RIGHT THERE.
Meh. Debatable. I've never played it like Scent, however.
==Aelryinth
Still more accurate than scent. Scent only gives you direction w/in 30ft, location w/in 5. This doesn't matter to a melee guy, but does for anyone with reach. Also, scent requires a move action to get direction/location in either of those cases. Otherwise it's just presence/absence. Tremorsense is automatic within range on all of these points, no action needed.
Scent is more helpful for tracking, though.
The -8 is the problem. You've fighting uphill now to fix your AC. The name reckless abandon kinda implies that you've made a conscious choice to tank your AC.
the -8 isn't really that big of an issue. The beast totem he has gives a +6, which is the exact penalty that reckless abandon is giving. Thus you're back to a -2 from class abilities (rage). So with all those defensive items listed above you'd be 2 AC lower than the ranger doing the same build. And then your AC might be a point or two lower from not having a high dex, but then again you want the high dex for many AoO with Come and get me, so you'll probably have a fine dex. People see a -2 to AC, which isn't a huge deal once you have items, and feel that it means they should ignore AC
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You could take the Energy Absorption rage power-- the first attack of your rage that deals energy damage is negated and grants some temporary HP. Although you need a few other rage powers first, so it might be late in the game to make that happen.
You also have to pick a type of energy damage to resist. Fire is usually a good choice-- any commoner can throw a torch, but not many things deal, say, electricity damage unless they're [air] aligned, and so forth.
Yeah, dumping AC can create problems. However, you can turn that weakness into a strength, of sorts. If you know you are going to get hit, and you will with that AC, do everything you can to negate it.
1) Redirect it: Miss chances and straight out denials of attacks (crane riposte, parry and riposte, roll with it, etc, etc).
2) Convert it to eliminate it: As you are an invulnerable rager, find some way to turn a good portion of that damage to non-lethal. You already have nonlethal damage reduction equal to your level. Take the Guarded Life rage power. If you don't have nonlethal damage reduction, find a way to fit in the Undead Blood, Greater rage power. Its a great visual to imagine a barbarian getting beat down, over and over, yet the more injured he gets, the more it seems not to effect him. You could absorb twenty points of damage every time you are hit @ level 20.
3) More HP and some form of fast healing: I've heard boots of the earth are a good item, as long as you don't move.
One thing I found playing a low-AC martial is that you're more likely to get hit by creatures with grab abilities. If you depend on a two-handed weapon, that's a problem. So make sure you have a plan for what to do if grappled.surge of strength and break free?
Round 1:
Enemy pounces, full-attacks you and grabs you.You spend a standard action to try to break free. Thanks to strength surge, you succeed!
Round 2:
Enemy full-attacks and grabs you...
hmm, the language it uses is 'pinpoints location' not pinpoint square. I always treated it as far more accurate then Scent, because you know exactly where he is. Mirror Images dancing around his footprints aren't going to distract you, and invisibility isn't going to conceal those things. He's not in 'this area', he's exactly RIGHT THERE.
Meh. Debatable. I've never played it like Scent, however.
==Aelryinth
Tremorsense is just like blindsight. Pinpoint in pathfinder only means you know what square they are in. If you want to avoid miss chance then you need blindsight.
When blindsense and tremorsense are going up against mirror image they are basically giving the same information that someone's eyes would also give them. "They are somewhere in that square."
They way I described it to someone before is that blindsense and tremorsense basically cover the entire 5 foot square, which is why mirror image still works. That is accurate as they get. Blindsight hones in on the exact location.
Worked with a plan for Barbarian build of my dreams and stumbled upon this problem - AC is really low. And I mean REALLY. I can barely hit 30 notch at level 20.
How lethal it will be? I mean, I will have lots of hp, better DR from Invulnerable Rager. But still, even if I can cut down a Balor Lord with one pounce, what about his friends?
What are your thoughts? Can Barbarian survive without relying on AC?
A well made Invulnerable Rager should have at least DR 20/- by that level - when you have DR that high, AC becomes a complete afterthought. Between your DR and some sort of Displacement or Blink effect, you'll never notice your AC. Or their hits, for that matter.
Many thanks for all the input! After rethinking my shopping list and dumping reckless abandon I managed to get AC up to 38 points - 11 from +5 Mithral Breastplate, 5 from Dex Bonus, 6 from Beast Totem, from 5 Amulet of Natural Armor, 5 from Ring of Protection, -4 from Rage and Pounce.
Yet still - If I'll also decide to use my CaGM, my AC will offer protection only against very last iterative attack of that Balor Lord baddie, and I'll probably either maul him to death before that happens, or will die myself. Taking that into account - should I even bother to improve AC?
A well made Invulnerable Rager should have at least DR 20/- by that level
Teach me your secrets! How do you do that? Flesh Wound? Guarded Life?
Those powers seem rather limited to consider if I read them correctly.
Increased DR from Rage powers and Stalwart, I'd imagine.
AC 38 will be enough to help you with all the other stuff you'll be fighting in the meantime.
You can add Defiant to your Armor for +2 AC vs Evil Outsiders. You probably want heavy fortification, however.
The jingasa and ioun stone will cost you 10k for +2 AC.
You can buy a Defiant heavy Shield +5 for another total +9, and if you make it a +5 Defender, potentially another +14 pts...which means you're now rocking AC 54 (56) and are pretty good against all but his primary attack.
AC is what you want it to be.
==Aelryinth
One thing I found playing a low-AC martial is that you're more likely to get hit by creatures with grab abilities. If you depend on a two-handed weapon, that's a problem. So make sure you have a plan for what to do if grappled.surge of strength and break free?Round 1:
Enemy pounces, full-attacks you and grabs you.
You spend a standard action to try to break free. Thanks to strength surge, you succeed!Round 2:
Enemy full-attacks and grabs you...
Or you know you Strength surge to stop the grapple in the first place
"or to her Combat Maneuver Defense when an opponent attempts a maneuver against her. This power is used as an immediate action"
Increased DR from Rage powers and Stalwart, I'd imagine.
Then I'm good with my 10 DR.
You can buy a Defiant heavy Shield +5 for another total +9, and if you make it a +5 Defender, potentially another +14 pts...which means you're now rocking AC 54 (56) and are pretty good against all but his primary attack.
But I'm using two-handed falchion and I can't really drop those 2H bonuses - they are just so huge.
Increased DR from Rage powers and Stalwart, I'd imagine.Then I'm good with my 10 DR.
This is an older version of the build I'm talking about... its gone through a few iterations since then, but those changes were mainly a matter of preference. I've made alterations for a straight Invulnerable Rager, dropping Urban Barbarian for instance, and that's probably my favorite version of the character right now. My I wouldn't discount maxed out DR - many attacks won't even deal damage. Don't make the mistake of putting too much emphasis on AC, especially at later levels. BIG difference between DR 10/- and DR 24/-.
Unbreakable dip Invulnerable Rager
Against that Balor you mention, he gets seven attacks per round... with DR 24/- even if he hit with all seven, the three whip attacks wouldn't deal any damage at all and the four sword attacks would only deal their unholy damage.
Another quick recommendation - carry a weapon with reach if you're going to use CaGM against creatures with superior reach, otherwise, RAW, it won't proc.
I don't really know what level range you're planning on playing the character - that actually makes a pretty big difference on optimized build suggestions - but if you're going to be in the level range where you can Rage-cycle, don't overlook Auspicious Mark as an option.
Increased DR from Rage powers and Stalwart, I'd imagine.Then I'm good with my 10 DR.
But I'm using two-handed falchion and I can't really drop those 2H bonuses - they are just so huge.You can buy a Defiant heavy Shield +5 for another total +9, and if you make it a +5 Defender, potentially another +14 pts...which means you're now rocking AC 54 (56) and are pretty good against all but his primary attack.
IT was a note that you CAN get up to a virtually unhittable AC if you are so inclined. A quick draw shield lets you swap between modes. Using a one handed weapon that can be used in two hands lets you swap between modes as you like for 1-3 points of difference in damage.
That +6 Nat AC bonus in a rage can easily catapult you into unhittability if you bother to go more defensive.
==Aelryinth
And lets Remember the "guarded stance" rage power that gives you +6 ac while raging (activated as a move action)
Use in tandem to moving to a enemy and using CAGM.
For the record, the AC bonus is +1 to start, +2 at 6th, +3 at 12th and +4 at 18th. As a Dodge bonus though, it does stack with everything else.
All of which means the barbarian can get a MUCH higher AC then the fighter can, if he wants to build for it.
Fighter best defensive class me arse.
==Aelryinth
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All of which means the barbarian can get a MUCH higher AC then the fighter can, if he wants to build for it.
Fighter best defensive class me arse.
==Aelryinth
No, I feel fighter has a higher AC more innatley and can boost his AC much easier than a barb.
I was just making a point that the barb can boost his own AC fairly well.
On a side note, the fighter can easily gain DR18/- with adamanite heavy armor+ stalwart chain. As IIRC stalwart stacks with armor. At the least he will get DR/15 and a one level dip in moms will get him crane style if he so desires.
All of which means the barbarian can get a MUCH higher AC then the fighter can, if he wants to build for it.
Fighter best defensive class me arse.
==Aelryinth
No, I feel fighter has a higher AC more innatley and can boost his AC much easier than a barb.
I was just making a point that the barb can boost his own AC fairly well.
On a side note, the fighter can easily gain DR18/- with adamanite heavy armor+ stalwart chain. As IIRC stalwart stacks with armor. At the least he will get DR/15 and a one level dip in moms will get him crane style if he so desires.
Stalwart: "This damage reduction stacks with DR you gain from class features, such as the barbarian's, but not with DR from any other source."
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Stalwart: "This damage reduction stacks with DR you gain from class features, such as the barbarian's, but not with DR from any other source."All of which means the barbarian can get a MUCH higher AC then the fighter can, if he wants to build for it.
Fighter best defensive class me arse.
==Aelryinth
No, I feel fighter has a higher AC more innatley and can boost his AC much easier than a barb.
I was just making a point that the barb can boost his own AC fairly well.
On a side note, the fighter can easily gain DR18/- with adamanite heavy armor+ stalwart chain. As IIRC stalwart stacks with armor. At the least he will get DR/15 and a one level dip in moms will get him crane style if he so desires.
this being said, at level 19 an armor master fighter with combat expertise has insane AC (and touch AC) + 22Dr/- lol. (12 from heavy armor (from a class skill)+10 from combat expertise