Trip, Grapple, Reposition, Disarm, and Shove all seem like the kind of physical control/defensive things I imagine a Guardian doing. So what do you think about leaning into it harder?
Auto-scale Athletics and add stuff like like...
Trip or Grapple when an enemy tries to move away.
Reposition or Shove an ally out of a fireball zone (or enemy into one).
2 action Strike and Disarm without MAP.
Shields gain the Trip and Disarm traits.
+2 to Athletics checks against enemies that hurt Allies.
Use a Trip weapon to Disarm.
You count as 1 size larger (already exsist).
Etc...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will absolutely be using Athletics as a strength based Guardian. As-written, it would be almost laughable to not invest in athletics as a Guardian. I can see lots (maybe the vast majority) of Guardian concepts involving doing athletics maneuvers.
However, a case could be made that not every guardian should be shoehorned into doing athletics stuff. Is it worth making sure those types are served? I don't know.
Can anyone come up with an archetypical guardian type character from other media that *wouldn't* grab, trip, shove, disarm, etc?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As it stands yes. It gives you something to do other than use your fairly awful attack stat. Took a flail with my playtest Guardian for tripping.
I like the ideas you put forward.
What we have is okay but lackluster:
FLYING TACKLE [two-actions] is alright
RIGHT WHERE YOU WANT THEM and other Shove feats are OK, but compete for better stuff it feels like.
DISARMING INTERCEPT [free-action] I kinda skipped over due to disarm being bad unless you are fighting humanoids a lot etc. Also competes with a lot of level 6 feats.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The player: Yes.
The mechanics: Also yes, so it can have a proactive impact.
With its Strikes having no damage booster and then falling behind on attack bonus, the class needs more martial than martyr.
However, a case could be made that not every guardian should be shoehorned into doing athletics stuff. Is it worth making sure those types are served? I don't know.
Can anyone come up with an archetypical guardian type character from other media that *wouldn't* grab, trip, shove, disarm, etc?
Champion exists as an alternative defensive class. So no one is shoehorned into it.
I also kind of feel like Taunt (Divine Challenge) would be thematically better on them.
I’m actually leaning into this more as I continue to Playtest my Guardian… I’ve now built him to be more of a slow, somewhat stationary vortex of Reach/Hampered Sweeps/Tripping/Disarm with a Shield and Whip. Paired with a Stand your ground and tank Champion. I’m looking forward to seeing how fun it’ll be.
I am going to play around with a two weapon guardian with the dual warrior dedication.
I'm thinking it does three things for them.
- It gives access to shove on one weapon and trip on another. Adding: gauntlet in one hand lets the other have any other martial 1 hander. Kinda
good to have both since they hit different save DCs. Shove also has
unkind shove to boost it a bit.
- When theres a turn where the guardian needs to contribute damage or
bad things will happen double slice lets them have 2 attacks at their
best accuracy. 0 MAP is the only time strike is worth it for them
in a lot of situations.
- Last thing is the bonus damage from furious vengeance when it is
applicable will appply to both strikes if they hit doubling the
abilities contribution to damage.
They will be a dual wielding character that will feel like they are
always already parrying+ with their better Armor prof progression. Adding to this maybe twin repose is better on a guardian because they have the best chance of most classes for enemies to trigger it?
Trip, Grapple, Reposition, Disarm, and Shove all seem like the kind of physical control/defensive things I imagine a Guardian doing. So what do you think about leaning into it harder?
Etc...
Flying Tackle is quite good. But yes this is something that every strength based character can and should have as an option. I just don't see it as the Guardian's raison d'etre though. It only every makes sense as a part of it.
That should be but one avenue of proactive play for Guardians.
I think they should lean even more into a disrupting playstyle that makes them a fun class to play without being a damage dealer.
If the class had access to strong debuffs (not those associated with Athletics) and other disruptive actions, it would make it more distinct from the current defensive buildsand would open design space to solve the incredibly passive and reactive playstyle of the class.
That should be but one avenue of proactive play for Guardians.
I think they should lean even more into a disrupting playstyle that makes them a fun class to play without being a damage dealer.
If the class had access to strong debuffs (not those associated with Athletics) and other disruptive actions, it would make it more distinct from the current defensive buildsand would open design space to solve the incredibly passive and reactive playstyle of the class.
Or you can make more debuffing associated with Athletics.
Disarm Voice
A precise jab to the throat prevents an enemy from speaking clearly, if at all.
Attempt a Disarm against a creature with a throat, mouth, or similar.
Critical Success: the target can't speak or use effects with the Auditory trait until it uses an Interact action to clear it's throat.
Success: the target takes a -2 to attack rolls and DCs with the Auditory trait. And a +2 to future Disarm Voice checks.
Critical Failure: you are off-guard.
Trip Thoughts.
Make a Trip attempt.
Critical Success: Stupefied 2
Success: Stupefied 1.
The last one is more about Acrobatics for me... you spin around and make the enemy dazed, or at least distract them by make them wonder what the heck you are doing.
Trip Thoughts.
Make a Trip attempt.
Critical Success: Stupefied 2
Success: Stupefied 1.
Oo, I’ve got one! How about an Athletics check to flex your muscles and make an enemy frightened 1, or frightened 2 on a critical success? Maybe if you flex your muscles really hard, your enemy might be so impressed they could die on the spot? And while we’re at it, how about an Athletics check to give an ally a warm bear hug and heal them, or to draw from your muscle memory and get information on a creature? Just slap Athletics on anything, really, and you’ll never need to make any of those pesky meaningful choices over how to put your fourth attribute to use at all!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Athletics check to give an ally a warm bear hug and heal them
Sign me up right gd now.
Ride the Giant
Attempt a Climb check against a creature 2 or more sizes above you. While you ride on to them, they encumbered. They can take an interact action to attempt to shake you off.
The last one is more about Acrobatics for me... you spin around and make the enemy dazed, or at least distract them by make them wonder what the heck you are doing.
Ok, maybe not that one.
Perhaps simply
Guardian Maneuver, free action, Flourish
Attempt a Trip, Grapple, Reposition, Disarm, or Shove
Alternatively
Guardian Training
The first time on each of your turns that you attempt Trip, Grapple, Reposition, Disarm, or Shove, it does not increase MAP.
I'm wondering how much jostling PC2 barbarian and guardian will have over that juggernaut aesthetic in their feats. Of course having an offensive and defensive bent of the same fantasy is a valid distinction between the two. To OPs point, YES, guardian should definitely feel like a big meaty bully