I just graduated from Wrath of the Righteous as a 18th-level/10th-tier Inquisitor of Ragathiel and have been wondering whether becoming a herald of Ragathiel would be a possible long-term outcome for me. I'm certainly significantly more powerful than the typical 15th-level heralds normal deities seem to have... but can demigods have heralds, or is that restricted to capital-G Gods?
Cheers,
Lady Jādhanakṛti Vārima, Sixth Wing of Ragathiel, Avenger of the Worldwound, Wielder of Symmetry
Creative Director
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In 1st edition Pathfinder, the concept of a Herald was something we came up with for the spell greater planar ally, because I was always kind of annoyed that this spell let you conjure a minion of your deity of up to CR 15 (or was it 18 HD... one of the two), so I championed for the creation of a herald for each of the core 20. That way, a cleric of those deities could have a top-tier best-in-class thing to summon that had built-in ties to their faith.
In that rules set, we generally limited them to full deities, as one of the ways we set mechanical differences between deities and demigods.
In 2nd edition, we got to fix the problem spell in the first place so that things work a little different, but also have a much wider range of extraplanar options to choose from on top of that. And as of Wrath of the Righteous, we'd already started to open heralds up for demigods.
The only thing really keeping us from listing heralds for every deity at this point is simply lack of space and time to do such a project. It's tricky enough to do 20 unique stat blocks for each of the core deities... it's tough to justify expanding that pagecount up significantly to cover lots more, but I could see us potentailly someday maybe doing more of them beyond the core 20 here and there... just not all in one fell swoop.
THAT said... Luis is the creative director of the lore side of things so he'd be the one to ask for a definitive answer!
Thanks James!
Since WotR was 1e, I guess I should be bound by the «core deities only» design choice. Then again, I’m effectively immortal now and might plausibly survive into 2e times.
What’s that about demigod heralds in WotR? Does Baphomet’s daughter count?
In any case, it seems the title of herald is more of a technicality — perhaps it’s better if I can’t be summoned with Greater Planar Ally. Then again, in WotR certain deity finds herself restricted by her lack of access to her herald, so I guess there’s more to it after all?
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Thanks James!
Since WotR was 1e, I guess I should be bound by the «core deities only» design choice. Then again, I’m effectively immortal now and might plausibly survive into 2e times.
What’s that about demigod heralds in WotR? Does Baphomet’s daughter count?
In any case, it seems the title of herald is more of a technicality — perhaps it’s better if I can’t be summoned with Greater Planar Ally. Then again, in WotR certain deity finds herself restricted by her lack of access to her herald, so I guess there’s more to it after all?
To add more confusion, consider Deskari's avatar, the Echo of Deskari.
Wouldn't a Demon Lord or Infernal Duke be more likely to have an avatar speak for it instead of a somewhat independent herald?
Personally, I don't see a problem with Demigods like Ragathiel having a herald, but a herald should be much less powerful than your character (which is probably in the CR 23-25 range). Ragathiel is a CR 26. Your Inquisitor is practically a demigod on its own!
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...but a herald should be much less powerful than your character (which is probably in the CR 23-25 range). Ragathiel is a CR 26. Your Inquisitor is practically a demigod on its own!
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Interesting point. Makes me pause and think.
.... My first observation is that with the Leadership Feat one can indeed have a Cohort (minimum) two Levels lower. Obviously not the same, but same ballpark. Further food for thought.
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...but a herald should be much less powerful than your character (which is probably in the CR 23-25 range). Ragathiel is a CR 26. Your Inquisitor is practically a demigod on its own!.
Interesting point. Makes me pause and think.
.... My first observation is that with the Leadership Feat one can indeed have a Cohort (minimum) two Levels lower. Obviously not the same, but same ballpark. Further food for thought.
Yes, the Leadership feat really should scale to higher levels, including into the Mythic realm.
I know there's a Mythic version of Leadership in the Mythic Hero's Handbook," but I don't think it's sufficient.
The whole determination of what a "level" is for monstrous cohorts is also entirely inadequate. There's too much ambiguity with it.
Leadership should be based on Hit Dice and Mythic characters should be allowed to get cohorts with more than 17 or 18 Hit Dice. Maybe up to 22 or 23 Hit Dice?
In Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth, Baphomet transformed Iomedae's herald into his own. His CR is 20 and he also has 8 MR. Does that mean, while he is the herald of a god, he cannot be conjured with Greater Planar Ally spell?
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In Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth, Baphomet transformed Iomedae's herald into his own. His CR is 20 and he also has 8 MR. Does that mean, while he is the herald of a god, he cannot be conjured with Greater Planar Ally spell?
Correct. That whole plotline and creature and character are exceptions to the rule, sort of in the same way Tarrasque was an exception to that rule in 1st edition Pathfinder.
Wasn't the Hand of the Inheritor Ragathiel's herald before Iomedae ascended?
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I believe mythic destiny is the name for the different mythic options we'll have in the upcoming War of Immortals. I could be mistaken, though, and just picking up on the term I've been seeing floating around.This discussion also has me thinking that becoming a divine herald would be a really cool mythic destiny.What's a "mythic destiny"?
Do you mean a "mythic path"?
If so, yeah, that would be a pretty cool mythic path.
What would some of the path abilities be, do you think?
It's right there on the store page description of War of Immortals. 'Apocalypse Rider' and 'Eternal Legend' are two examples of Mythic Destinies.
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It's right there on the store page description of War of Immortals. 'Apocalypse Rider' and 'Eternal Legend' are two examples of Mythic Destinies.I believe mythic destiny is the name for the different mythic options we'll have in the upcoming War of Immortals. I could be mistaken, though, and just picking up on the term I've been seeing floating around.This discussion also has me thinking that becoming a divine herald would be a really cool mythic destiny.What's a "mythic destiny"?
Do you mean a "mythic path"?
If so, yeah, that would be a pretty cool mythic path.
What would some of the path abilities be, do you think?
Sorry. My groups are still playing PF1. I haven't been paying very much attention to PF2 stuff.
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Aiudara is the Gates the elves used to go back to Castrovel to escape Earthfall. The new term for half-elf is Aiuvaran.
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You and me both, Arkat -- this morning I learned that they changed the name 'Half-Elf' to "Aiudara" (or something like that).
Aiudara should be the name of the elf gate network across the planet (which iirc is their name from 1e but no shade if it's just not one you encountered!)
The linguistic connection between aiudara and aiudeen (dominant elf ethnicity in Kyonin, the 'gate elves' if you will) is readily apparent, and so similarly us the aiuvarin (elves of mixed heritage ie half-elves). It's a lotta aiu- so fair enough if it's hard to keep straight. I'm only 80% certain I spelled them right and got the right name for the right thing myself...
Oh, but, uh, I guess that's a bit of a tangent...
Edit: Aaaand ninja'd
I just realized that Great Planar Ally can only summon an outsider (not sure if the word "summon" is appropriate in this context though). And Tarrasque, the herald of Rovagug, is a magical beast, not an outsider. So even if Great Planar Ally has no HD limit, it can still not be used to summon Tarrasque right? Sigh. It's clearly disadvantageous for Rovagug worshippers.
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In Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth, Baphomet transformed Iomedae's herald into his own. His CR is 20 and he also has 8 MR. Does that mean, while he is the herald of a god, he cannot be conjured with Greater Planar Ally spell?
While this is a great example of a demigod gaining a herald, it is achieved by re-educating a pre-existing herald of a major deity. That sounds like it might be a loophole around the rule, rather than a disproof of the rule.
Wasn't the Hand of the Inheritor Ragathiel's herald before Iomedae ascended?
According to the Pathfinder Wiki, he was merely «a servant» of Ragathiel's.
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Hand_of_the_Inheritor
In any case, I'm fine with not getting the title of Herald. My legend will speak for itself. And since I'm apparently only about two CR steps away from Ragathiel himself, maybe I should aspire to become his peer rather than his herald. >:)
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I just realized that Great Planar Ally can only summon an outsider (not sure if the word "summon" is appropriate in this context though). And Tarrasque, the herald of Rovagug, is a magical beast, not an outsider. So even if Great Planar Ally has no HD limit, it can still not be used to summon Tarrasque right? Sigh. It's clearly disadvantageous for Rovagug worshippers.
Fortunately, those Rovagug worshipers have a LOT more choices than neutral or good clerics, because we publish a lot more evil outsiders for those clerics to pick and choose from.
A big part of the herald plot wasn't meant so much to provide equality among the gods, but to give player characters (who generally worship good or neutral deities who tend to have much smaller selections of allied outsiders to conjure than do those who worship evil deities) to have a bespoke option built in to match their faith's themes.
There's also the thematic element of Rovagug and his faith that, like the Elder Mythos, he doesn't care about his worshipers and if he gets his way, they'll all be destroyed anyway. Him not giving them a choice of a greater planar ally herald is part of his deal. If you're into fairness and being respected and treated well by your deity, don't worship Rovagug. (He and his worshipers are mostly meant as NPC antagonists anyway.)
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And since I'm apparently only about two CR steps away from Ragathiel himself, maybe I should aspire to become his peer rather than his herald.
That would be my suggestion if you were to ask.
I'm actually writing a story about my Level 20 Mythic 10 Paladin of Iomedae becoming an Empyreal Lord after closing the Worldwound and killing Baphomet and Deskari.
He did more stuff than that, but killing 2 Demon Lords is what drew the attention of a few other Empyreal Lords to him, not to mention Iomedae's and Desna's (and Sarenrae's) interest.
Hoping to publish it as part of Pathfinder Infinite some day soon.
after closing the Worldwound and killing Baphomet and Deskari.
Huh! We killed neither of them… Congratulations!
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BTW...Does anyone have any theories on how Ragathiel views the celestial being that was formerly known as the Hand of the Inheritor (HotI)?
Do you think he was upset that the HotI in any way "betrayed" him by agreeing to become the Herald of Iomedae?
Now that Queen Galfrey is Iomedae's new herald, do you think Ragathiel would take the HotI back as a servant or is the celestial being formerly known as the HotI now a "free agent" able to serve any demigod or god who would have him?
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BTW...Does anyone have any theories on how Ragathiel views the celestial being that was formerly known as the Hand of the Inheritor (HotI)?
Do you think he was upset that the HotI in any way "betrayed" him by agreeing to become the Herald of Iomedae?
Now that Queen Galfrey is Iomedae's new herald, do you think Ragathiel would take the HotI back as a servant or is the celestial being formerly known as the HotI now a "free agent" able to serve any demigod or god who would have him?
Nah, if I recall correctly the Hand asked for permission to take his leave from Ragathiel's host to serve Iomedae. Nothing cloak and dagger about the Hand leaving his service.
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Nah, if I recall correctly the Hand asked for permission to take his leave from Ragathiel's host to serve Iomedae. Nothing cloak and dagger about the Hand leaving his service.BTW...Does anyone have any theories on how Ragathiel views the celestial being that was formerly known as the Hand of the Inheritor (HotI)?
Do you think he was upset that the HotI in any way "betrayed" him by agreeing to become the Herald of Iomedae?
Now that Queen Galfrey is Iomedae's new herald, do you think Ragathiel would take the HotI back as a servant or is the celestial being formerly known as the HotI now a "free agent" able to serve any demigod or god who would have him?
Ok, so the HotI didn't leave Ragathiel on bad terms. Fine.
But that fact does not say one thing or the other about whether Ragathiel would accept him back as a servant.
I'm tending to think that the celestial being formerly known as the Hand of the Inheritor is a free agent and is currently unattached as far as whom he serves now.
I suppose he may not serve anyone until he gets over the fact Baphomet corrupted him.
Maybe he would serve a demigod again despite the fact he used to be the herald of a full fledged deity. After all, he fell pretty far.
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Hmmm...how about the Celestial Being Formerly Known as the Hand of the Inheritor as a cohort of PC quasi-deity? Specifically, a Paladin 20/Mythic Tier 10 who has four domains via taking the "Divine Source" General Mythic Path Ability 3 times? He has both the Leadership feat as well as the Champion's "Crusader" path ability.
FYI, the Celestial Being Formerly Known as the Hand of the Inheritor is a CR 15 being with 18 Hit Dice according to Inner Sea Gods, page 292.
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This discussion also has me thinking that becoming a divine herald would be a really cool mythic destiny.
We've got a winner :-D
Don't know if there's a Fey related destiny, but for what it's worth, they mention that Divine Mysteries will have a "Mortal Herald" Mythic Destiny, so it seems to be a system they plan add to in future products, where appropriate.
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I think Mortal Herald was just an archetype, not a Mythic Destiny?
Both places I've seen it mentioned describe it as being both. I don't know precisely how that works but it seems a realistic possibility.
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Right, but that's 1E. We're talking about the 2E equivalent.
Who knows, then?
I suppose James knows, but he doesn't appear to be in a spoiler-y mood regarding any of the new Mythic rules and stuff.
I guess we'll just have to wait until War of the Immortals comes out. I don't think it was specifically said in that playtest with those two new classes that came out with it, though.
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Right, but that's 1E. We're talking about the 2E equivalent.Who knows, then?
I suppose James knows, but he doesn't appear to be in a spoiler-y mood regarding any of the new Mythic rules and stuff.
I guess we'll just have to wait until War of the Immortals comes out. I don't think it was specifically said in that playtest with those two new classes that came out with it.
In fact, I probably wouldn't. That content is being created and developed over on the Rules and Lore team. I could go peek or chat with Luis or Michael and find out easy enough, but I'm busy Treerazer-Wrangling at the moment.
That said, I AM pretty timid and careful about revealing too much mythic stuff, in part because as mentioned above, that's not part of my job since I'm the Narrative Creative Director and it's not my place to talk about it publicly, but also because I want to make extra-double-sure that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to PC mythic options so as to try to avoid a situation like Wrath of the Righteous when I wasn't up to the task of making that work the way I had hoped.