Dying and Hero Points

[Ched Greyfell]

Last game session, and PC who was Wounded 2 got hit with a crit, which would take him to Dying 4.
My players told me that he could spend his hero points to avoid taking the Dying condition, and just be stable at 0.
I didn't think this sounded right. The text says "keep your Dying condition from increasing" not "keep from gaining the Dying condition."

If this were the case, any PC with a hero point would be nearly unkillable.

Thoughts?

[Finoan]

Going from Dying 0 to Dying 4 sounds like increasing your Dying condition to me. Hero Points should be able to prevent that increase.

Yes, as long as you have 1 Hero Point, you are pretty much unable to be one-shot killed. But it only works once. You have to spend all of your Hero Points to do that. If you get hit again, you won't have any Hero Points available to do it again with.

[Farien]

In a completely unrelated question, why are you fighting while at Wounded 2 instead of running from a battle that you are losing?

[Ched Greyfell]

Finoan wrote:

Going from Dying 0 to Dying 4 sounds like increasing your Dying condition to me. Hero Points should be able to prevent that increase.

Yes, as long as you have 1 Hero Point, you are pretty much unable to be one-shot killed. But it only works once. You have to spend all of your Hero Points to do that. If you get hit again, you won't have any Hero Points available to do it again with.

So, when you're conscious, it's not that you don't have the Dying condition, it's just that your Dying condition is at 0? It's not that you don't have the Frightened condition, you are just at Frightened 0?

[Finoan]

Ched Greyfell wrote:

So, when you're conscious, it's not that you don't have the Dying condition, it's just that your Dying condition is at 0? It's not that you don't have the Frightened condition, you are just at Frightened 0?

I'm sure there are people on the rules forum who will argue that the two are distinct. And probably with plenty of rules citations to back it up.

But from a practical actual gameplay perspective, I don't see any meaningful difference between 'Frightened 0' and 'not having the Frightened condition' when it comes to doing comparisons on the condition's value. That distinction would only be important if it was interacting with an ability that triggered on the creature having the Frightened condition or not.

But in any case, going from 'null' to 'Dying 4' also looks like an increase in the Dying condition too. At least, it does to me.

Is there some reason that a character with Wounded 2 that gets hit by a crit from a longbow while running away from battle is more deserving of instant death than one that is laying on the floor at Dying 2 and gets hit by a crit? Assuming that both have Hero Points to spend on avoiding death.

[Ched Greyfell]

Maybe I'm getting caught up in the wording. But that's kind of what TTRPG gamers do.
As far as I can tell, absolutely everyone disagrees with me on this. Which is why I posted the question. Not to argue with the internet, but to see if I was just wrong.

[Ravingdork]

Your players are correct.

[Bluemagetim]

One of the Hero point uses is this so that you don't have to rip up a character sheet because of bad luck if you saved at least 1 for that purpose. it think its a good safety net for your players and makes your role a bit more forgiving as a GM when the rolls just keep coming up for you.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Yeah dying value increasing is any time it. Well, increases in value. That is the trigger.

You don't get back up and aren't concious so it is actually really rare that it makes a useful difference in combat since allies will usually get you back up, but it will 100% always stop you from dying (which is why it uses all of your heropoints)

I should note that in pf2e resurrection options are both restricted and generally not reliable. I have watched a party bankrupt themselves trying to resurrect a fallen ally 3 times in a row and have the ally still stay dead.

Another thing to note, it doesn't clear persistent damage or save the downed PC from getting caught in more AoEs. Although thinking on that, I may start houseruling that it does auto cure persistent damage at my table to give a bit more value to saving heropoints (my party learnt long ago that they are better spent than saved)

[Errenor]

Finoan wrote:

Yes, as long as you have 1 Hero Point, you are pretty much unable to be one-shot killed.

Unless somebody brings you to 0 with a death effect of course. Or kills you with a death effect that simply says that without bringing you to 0 at all.

[jcheung]

i'm fairly sure that you just straight up die if you go from massive damage, or an ability that says "you die" like phantasmal killer/vision of death or disintegrate.

or, if you really need to kill off a PC, kick 'em when they're down. your wounded 2 player takes that crit, auto-stabilizes and increases wounded to 3, and then you just hit them with some splash damage which sets their dying to 4. note that this option will usually make the player upset as well, at whatever the source of the splash was.

or if they're stupid enough to be raised back into the fight at dying 3 and stay there, then just take them out the normal way.

[Errenor]

jcheung wrote:

your wounded 2 player takes that crit, auto-stabilizes and increases wounded to 3

If you mean hero points here, they don't increase wounded.

[jcheung]

you know what, i think you might be right on that. i never actually noticed that wounded wasn't supposed to increase when hero points were used.
still, point stands. easy enough to kill off a PC if you really want them dead

[SuperParkourio]

You gain the Dying 2 condition, and if the Wounded 2 condition would increase it, you can prevent that by spending all your hero points.

[Errenor]

jcheung wrote:

still, point stands. easy enough to kill off a PC if you really want them dead

Yeah, that's true. Especially as it always includes 'stones fall you die'.