GM Delmoth's recent recruitment for Wrath of the Righteous has rekindled my curiosity and fascination with this specific AP.
So I decided to throw the question out there - would there be any interest in playing/running this AP in a more 'controlled' environment? Meaning only Core Classes, Races, Feats and Spells. No traits apart from the AP specific ones.
Thoughts?
A back to basics - or back to Core, as it were.
Absolutely interested.
Indeed! Some good old PE1 basics.
I have a paladin I have been trying to finish this with. Never seem to get out of book two. He is a tiefling though so I guess that is out. Definite maybe then.
Incidentally, I'd guess that people will be interested regardless of your rules choices. AP recruitments don't come along that often anymore.
I've noticed it, and I wonder why that is. Perhaps there is more of a focus on PF2e now.
I have a paladin I have been trying to finish this with. Never seem to get out of book two. He is a tiefling though so I guess that is out. Definite maybe then.
Yep, that is a very relevant point though. I find it 'makes sense' to have Aasimar and Tiefling in Wrath of the Righteous so I would be inclined to say they should be allowed, but it needs to be treaded lightly so it does not get out of hand :D
I had a followup question: apart from restricting it to Core, what were you thinking of for character generation?
Another good question, though lets not get ahead of ourselves - this is only an interest thread ;)
I personally like 25pt buy builds because I think they offer you more 'options', but I also feel people tend to go even more min-maxing than usual with those. So 20pt buy is usually the 'safe' choice?
Though... Why not something different? Like 4d6 drop the lowest down the line? I like the 'randomizing' effect, but there are two things I am not crazy about - the possible shenanigans with the Paizo post preview feature, and the eventual disparities between character ability stats. Lets face it, it is never fun to be the 'below average' one in a group where everyone was really lucky with their rolls.
Would Unchained be available for Barbarian, Rogue, and Monk?
Hmmmmmmmm. If I was running it nope :P
I had a followup question: apart from restricting it to Core, what were you thinking of for character generation?Another good question, though lets not get ahead of ourselves - this is only an interest thread ;)
I personally like 25pt buy builds because I think they offer you more 'options', but I also feel people tend to go even more min-maxing than usual with those. So 20pt buy is usually the 'safe' choice?
Though... Why not something different? Like 4d6 drop the lowest down the line? I like the 'randomizing' effect, but there are two things I am not crazy about - the possible shenanigans with the Paizo post preview feature, and the eventual disparities between character ability stats. Lets face it, it is never fun to be the 'below average' one in a group where everyone was really lucky with their rolls.
You can always do 'both' though, which is actually the better of 2 worlds in some ways versus 25.
You roll, and your rolls need to meet the 20pt threashold, Aroden be praised if you get all 18s. But if you get all 12s, that doesn't meet the 20pt buy, so you roll again. Just a thought.
For me, I would also rather that the rolling be done on Discord or any other way than here at Paizo, for any number of reasons, which isn't to say that I have ever cheated, or re-labeled rolls the way that I wanted the results to look, or ever added an un-needed roll ahead of a roll that I didn't like to get a re-roll ... but yeah, anywhere but here.
GM Delmoth's recent recruitment for Wrath of the Righteous has rekindled my curiosity and fascination with this specific AP.
So I decided to throw the question out there - would there be any interest in playing/running this AP in a more 'controlled' environment? Meaning only Core Classes, Races, Feats and Spells. No traits apart from the AP specific ones.
Thoughts?
My thoughts on this btw is BRILLIANT
I have nothing so much neccesarily against the super convoluted min-max-diagonal-trigonometry builds, but there is something to be said for classic builds that might actually ever achieve a capstone. I get that playing through to 20th is a rare rare occurance, but it's nice to think it could still be a goal.
With core classes being specified, what archetype sources would be used? Only core? APG? Race Guide? Ultimates?
I had a followup question: apart from restricting it to Core, what were you thinking of for character generation?Another good question, though lets not get ahead of ourselves - this is only an interest thread ;)
I personally like 25pt buy builds because I think they offer you more 'options', but I also feel people tend to go even more min-maxing than usual with those. So 20pt buy is usually the 'safe' choice?
Though... Why not something different? Like 4d6 drop the lowest down the line? I like the 'randomizing' effect, but there are two things I am not crazy about - the possible shenanigans with the Paizo post preview feature, and the eventual disparities between character ability stats. Lets face it, it is never fun to be the 'below average' one in a group where everyone was really lucky with their rolls.
You can always do 'both' though, which is actually the better of 2 worlds in some ways versus 25.
You roll, and your rolls need to meet the 20pt threashold, Aroden be praised if you get all 18s. But if you get all 12s, that doesn't meet the 20pt buy, so you roll again. Just a thought.
For me, I would also rather that the rolling be done on Discord or any other way than here at Paizo, for any number of reasons, which isn't to say that I have ever cheated, or re-labeled rolls the way that I wanted the results to look, or ever added an un-needed roll ahead of a roll that I didn't like to get a re-roll ... but yeah, anywhere but here.
Interesting idea on the 20pt threshold. And an even more interesting one on where to roll the dice, with which I agree. Discord adds an extra layer of complexity though.
GM Delmoth's recent recruitment for Wrath of the Righteous has rekindled my curiosity and fascination with this specific AP.
So I decided to throw the question out there - would there be any interest in playing/running this AP in a more 'controlled' environment? Meaning only Core Classes, Races, Feats and Spells. No traits apart from the AP specific ones.
Thoughts?
My thoughts on this btw is BRILLIANT
I have nothing so much neccesarily against the super convoluted min-max-diagonal-trigonometry builds, but there is something to be said for classic builds that might actually ever achieve a capstone. I get that playing through to 20th is a rare rare occurance, but it's nice to think it could still be a goal.
With core classes being specified, what archetype sources would be used? Only core? APG? Race Guide? Ultimates?
No Archetypes probably.
Incidentally, I'd guess that people will be interested regardless of your rules choices. AP recruitments don't come along that often anymore.I've noticed it, and I wonder why that is. Perhaps there is more of a focus on PF2e now.
I have a paladin I have been trying to finish this with. Never seem to get out of book two. He is a tiefling though so I guess that is out. Definite maybe then.Yep, that is a very relevant point though. I find it 'makes sense' to have Aasimar and Tiefling in Wrath of the Righteous so I would be inclined to say they should be allowed, but it needs to be treaded lightly so it does not get out of hand :D
In this case I would definitely be interested. Kevin was originally built as a base tiefling and marshal path. I've been using the pitborn type and champion in later builds. Part of his shtick was that he got more demonic looking the longer in the worldwound through mythic eldritch heritage. Not an option here but I can get him down to core only.
Interesting idea on the 20pt threshold. And an even more interesting one on where to roll the dice, with which I agree. Discord adds an extra layer of complexity though.I had a followup question: apart from restricting it to Core, what were you thinking of for character generation?Another good question, though lets not get ahead of ourselves - this is only an interest thread ;)
I personally like 25pt buy builds because I think they offer you more 'options', but I also feel people tend to go even more min-maxing than usual with those. So 20pt buy is usually the 'safe' choice?
Though... Why not something different? Like 4d6 drop the lowest down the line? I like the 'randomizing' effect, but there are two things I am not crazy about - the possible shenanigans with the Paizo post preview feature, and the eventual disparities between character ability stats. Lets face it, it is never fun to be the 'below average' one in a group where everyone was really lucky with their rolls.
You can always do 'both' though, which is actually the better of 2 worlds in some ways versus 25.
You roll, and your rolls need to meet the 20pt threashold, Aroden be praised if you get all 18s. But if you get all 12s, that doesn't meet the 20pt buy, so you roll again. Just a thought.
For me, I would also rather that the rolling be done on Discord or any other way than here at Paizo, for any number of reasons, which isn't to say that I have ever cheated, or re-labeled rolls the way that I wanted the results to look, or ever added an un-needed roll ahead of a roll that I didn't like to get a re-roll ... but yeah, anywhere but here.
Slight modification to the attributes idea: Maybe first roll 4d6 (drop the lowest? Then decide between that or take a 20 pt build, leave it up to the player?
I have no opinion on where rolls are made, to be honest.
Not a fan of rolling because you could up with a batman to everyone's robin or worse yet you find yourself being robin to everyone else's batman.
Would you be working in mythic rules or no?
I have not played this one but it seems to be a big one to have powerful characters for so a 20-25 pt build would seem appropriate.
Doesn't this AP require use of mythic tiers?
An intriguing concept, but I think it would work better for an older AP that was designed when more players would be playing core only. Wrath of the Righteous, above many other APs, IIRC was really designed bearing in mind certain subsystems and allowing for a variety of player options. My two cents.
Is there any particular reason Mythic Tiers would not work with core characters? Asking honestly because I am not THAT experienced with Mythic PF, only used it once or twice as a character myself.
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I'd like to offer a couple ideas and thoughts. About the attribute rolls, to avoid shenanigans here, I'd advise the mentioned 4d6 drop the lowest with a minimum of 20 points, but instead of letting the players to roll, the GM rolls. So, for this to work, players would state their interest and request a roll from the GM and they reply to the request with the roll. No way of abusing anything.
I've personally seen this a good amount of times. The GM decides to go with the rolls and soon enough you'll see some people making comments, questions and expressing interest before rolling, while in the background they are previewing their rolls and when they don't like it they make a post and try again in a couple hours.
Is there any particular reason Mythic Tiers would not work with core characters? Asking honestly because I am not THAT experienced with Mythic PF, only used it once or twice as a character myself.
The main reason is that a good amount of options from Mythic require other sources. As an example, from the almost 180 mythic feats, 47 of them (over 25%) are from other sources. Of the 297 mythic spells, 90 of them (over 30%) are from other sources. The Mythic Abilities aren't that problematic though, since most are generic enough.
Aside from that, since you've mentioned you are not that experienced with Mythic, I'd suggest you to make a good research here on the forums for common nerfs, like banning Mythic Vital Strike and Foebitting property from a legendary item, as an example.
Other thing is that mythic rules very quickly becomes a rocket tag game, and that would be considering a normal 4-players game. With 5 or 6 (usually the norm for PBP), this becomes even more absurd, so you'll for sure need to adjust things up because the usual thing of adding one or two mooks or maxing HP will not be close enough.
IMHO (I've run this AP almost to completion IRL), the mythic rules are the problem, NOT the many sources for regular character build, so limiting to core rules wouldn't really tone down mythic, while will diminish a lot the options for players.
Like DeathQuaker mentioned, I believe the idea of Core only works much better with the first 3-4 APs. For WotR, I'd suggest you not limiting so much, perhaps the following:
Hardcover Books: Core, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Equipment, Mythic Adventures - (this would exclude the hybrid and occult classes, as well as the vigilante)
Softcover: Allow all of them, but limit to 1 single source for each player.
Is there any particular reason Mythic Tiers would not work with core characters? Asking honestly because I am not THAT experienced with Mythic PF, only used it once or twice as a character myself.
I was merely pointing out that Mythic rules themselves are non-core, but Sir Longears has made a much better explanation.
Like DeathQuaker mentioned, I believe the idea of Core only works much better with the first 3-4 APs. For WotR, I'd suggest you not limiting so much, perhaps the following:
Hardcover Books: Core, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Equipment, Mythic Adventures - (this would exclude the hybrid and occult classes, as well as the vigilante)
Softcover: Allow all of them, but limit to 1 single source for each player.
IMO I would add the APG to this (very useful things in the APG like archetypes, alternate racial traits, and additional combat maneuvers that the Adventure Path is likely to use), and the Unchained classes, because they explicitly fix some balance and functionality issues with core. You could however restrict races and classes to core only however, and just use the spells and feats, etc. from the other books.
I would eliminate softcovers entirely, but that's my bias as I tend to mostly ban them for my online games anyway. I find them too full of stuff that's either broken or way too circumstantial.
The main reason is that a good amount of options from Mythic require other sources. As an example, from the almost 180 mythic feats, 47 of them (over 25%) are from other sources. Of the 297 mythic spells, 90 of them (over 30%) are from other sources. The Mythic Abilities aren't that problematic though, since most are generic enough.
Thank you for the well thought out and detailed comment Sir Longears!
By contrast I would say ONLY about 1/4 of the options from Mythic require other sources, which seems to still leave a lot?
But I do realize a big part of the 'difficulties/issues' in running this AP might be due to the Mythic rules themselves. I would just hope the Core restriction might ameliorate some of the extreme rocket-tag (I personally hate rocket-tag). But of course I cannot attest to it.
In any case, that is why we are here in this thread - to discuss if it would work (or how it could work by adding/removing allowed sources), and if there would be people interested in it. So I value all input, the discussion itself, and hearing from people with more experience than me.
Personally, as a DM I am not interested in running a PF1e game which is not Core only (explaining why would be a whole other can of worms, so lets just go with 'because' for now) - I could envision content from other sources trickling in, but as part of the game itself, not from the get-go at character creation.
I am not necessarily against allowing classes (only) from other sources, just on the fence about it. Mainly because I have seen in the past it brings a whole new set of issues/questions/considerations to the table. I think I once suggested a Core only game, but which would allow any class (except Occult and Vigilante stuff), and that generated a debate around whether the classes are playable or ruined by simply allowing them and not the Feats/Archetypes/Traits and whatever else which comes with them, even though I don't think I remember (my memory could fail me) anyone having been able to point out an example.
So I feel that sticking to Core makes things simpler for everyone (DM included) ;)
P.S. DM rolling for the players - I think I like that soultion!
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But I do realize a big part of the 'difficulties/issues' in running this AP might be due to the Mythic rules themselves. I would just hope the Core restriction might ameliorate some of the extreme rocket-tag (I personally hate rocket-tag). But of course I cannot attest to it.
By my experience, like I've mentioned, core only will alleviate almost nothing about the extreme rocket-tag. This is why I've came up with the restrictions that DM Delmoth is using for his campaign (I'm GM Toothy that he mentioned in his recruitment post).
If you want to keep things extra simple, perhaps you could consider the following:
>Run the game with 6 players;
>DO NOT use any of the Mythic Rules. These rules only kick in from books 2 onwards and each of them have a section with instructions on how to run them with non-mythic. I believe it might actually be easier to tone down a couple tough encounters than buff all of them (which is necessary if you go 5-6 players with Mythic).
If you are only comfortable with core, than there is no point in trying to "squeeze" anything more. Full disclosure, I've no dog in this fight because like I've mentioned in DM Delmoth's game, I'm already at my limit of games, so consider this as just a fellow GM giving advice to another one.
I want to clarify and support that you can and should run a game Core only if you want.
My opinion, however, is that Wrath of the Righteous specifically is a non-ideal AP to select for that route, and you may be creating a headache for yourself as the AP itself makes use of non-Core rules, races, classes, and subsystems.
I personally would app into many PBPs if Core only was a restriction, and depending, might even find that attractive. This is not one of them. I am saying this all not as a criticism, but as advice and to respond to the interest check in a way that I hope is informative.
Good luck and happy gaming.
I want to clarify and support that you can and should run a game Core only if you want.
My opinion, however, is that Wrath of the Righteous specifically is a non-ideal AP to select for that route, and you may be creating a headache for yourself as the AP itself makes use of non-Core rules, races, classes, and subsystems.
I personally would app into many PBPs if Core only was a restriction, and depending, might even find that attractive. This is not one of them. I am saying this all not as a criticism, but as advice and to respond to the interest check in a way that I hope is informative.
Not at all DeathQuaker, in an Interest check you voice whether you would be interested or not. That is how it is supposed to be.
I would be interested in playing. Core only sounds fine.
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I like Core only campaigns, or even Core + a few other sources. I like that this limits options, since when making a character for PF nowadays I often suffer from decision paralysis (especially if making a caster), and it can help to make a thematically cohesive party. And PF1E suffered from power creep as more and more material was released, so limiting that can help the party and the GM.
As for the issue with the mythic rules, I think either option would be fine. I know that the AP has rules for running non-mythic (although I don't recall ever hearing any feedback for how such a campaign went). Also, I recognize the above speculation about how the mythic feats and spells interact with material beyond Core material, but I would say that it's only speculation until someone actually tries it out.
Also, I'm just sharing my opinion as someone who would not try to play in this campaign. I don't try and apply to 6-part AP PbPs anymore. I think that they become a slog in the PbP format.
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Also, I recognize the above speculation about how the mythic feats and spells interact with material beyond Core material, but I would say that it's only speculation until someone actually tries it out.
LOL. Speculation? Are you aware how mythic feats and mythic spells work? They are nothing but upgrades to existing feats/spells.
Example: You can only take Mythic Power Attack if you already have Power Attack. So, for you to take Mythic Improved Dirty Trick, you need Improved Dirty Trick, and since it isn't core, you can't take the mythic version.
The same works for spells.
There is no speculation at all. It is a fact that limiting to core only, a reasonable amount of mythic feats and spells will simply be unavailable.
Also, I recognize the above speculation about how the mythic feats and spells interact with material beyond Core material, but I would say that it's only speculation until someone actually tries it out.LOL. Speculation? Are you aware how mythic feats and mythic spells work? They are nothing but upgrades to existing feats/spells.
Example: You can only take Mythic Power Attack if you already have Power Attack. So, for you to take Mythic Improved Dirty Trick, you need Improved Dirty Trick, and since it isn't core, you can't take the mythic version.
The same works for spells.
There is no speculation at all. It is a fact that limiting to core only, a reasonable amount of mythic feats and spells will simply be unavailable.
What I was referring to is how a mythic WotR game would play if over 30% of mythic spells (to use your statistic from upthread) are taken out of the game because they rely on spells not in the Core rules. And a similar situation for mythic feats. Unless someone with that experience speaks up for how such a game would play, the discussion about it is just speculation.
I was not implying that you could use a mythic spell or feat without it's base spell or feat. What I am implying is that a group could try out a mythic game that uses only the Core spells and feats and their mythic counterparts. They could just go for it and see what happens.
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I'll offer my opinion, because I feel this is a valid discussion.
It is very valid that GM wants to limit some rules because they are known to allow overpowered character creations. However, in ky experience, if the GM does not fully understand the reason for this to happen (as Albion claimed they didn't), there will always be ways for players who do understand the specific mechanics to become extra powerful, because there will be cracks in the banning.
My advice to them is to just copy the mechanics limitation from the other WotR recruitment, since it was done by experienced GMs. Or, in a more chaotic approach, just allow everything and bloat enemy stats like in the wotr video-game.
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I was not implying that you could use a mythic spell or feat without it's base spell or feat. What I am implying is that a group could try out a mythic game that uses only the Core spells and feats and their mythic counterparts. They could just go for it and see what happens.
Yeah, this is also my perspective, and I can see there are several experienced DMs who feel this is not the way. Of course I cannot be sure until it is actually done. Or until someone who has done it before tells me it failed, and explains why :)
I'll throw in my two cents. I am not applying to that other Wrath recruitment preciously because of the changes being made. I don't like them and don't want to play that game so I won't. No biggie.
I am GM'ing a Wrath game and my restrictions are a bit larger in a way and I still HATE mythic vital strike. Regardless of what you do ban it would be my advice. It makes every hit a critical basically and the multiplier goes up as you add feats. I am running a Paladin only game and restricted it to core plus a few things. When I had 6 in the game I was adding enemies and advanced template and maxing HP. I have found what I think works best is smart enemies. If the enemies have enough HP to take more than 1 vital strike it's a bonus but I am not currently upping those. Currently at the end of book 2.
In the end I think you run the game you want to run.
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My first time running this AP was for my RL friends. While they are used to Pathfinder, they are not very well versed on it and usually just make choices because they "look cool" instead of being powerful or not. Because of this, I've indeed run it using only core rules.
We've gone up to book four before we as whole decided to stop. The reason? The mythic rules were just too broken, even for them who had absolutely no level of optimized characters. It was an extreme rocket-tag game. It was either the PCs stomping the encounters or the enemies stomping them, no middle term.
So, what I want to say is: you want to run a core-only WotR game? Sure, go for it and I really hope you have a good time. It will work just fine in terms of power, for you really don't need the other races/classes/feats/spells to succeed. It will also be a simpler game with less strange abilities and so on. What will not happen, however, is any change in this rocket-tag effect, because it happens because of the mythic rules, not anything else.
My first time running this AP was for my RL friends. While they are used to Pathfinder, they are not very well versed on it and usually just make choices because they "look cool" instead of being powerful or not. Because of this, I've indeed run it using only core rules.
We've gone up to book four before we as whole decided to stop. The reason? The mythic rules were just too broken, even for them who had absolutely no level of optimized characters. It was an extreme rocket-tag game. It was either the PCs stomping the encounters or the enemies stomping them, no middle term.
So, what I want to say is: you want to run a core-only WotR game? Sure, go for it and I really hope you have a good time. It will work just fine in terms of power, for you really don't need the other races/classes/feats/spells to succeed. It will also be a simpler game with less strange abilities and so on. What will not happen, however, is any change in this rocket-tag effect, because it happens because of the mythic rules, not anything else.
I really hate rocket-tag, and will always do my best to avoid it. So thank you Sir Longears, for recounting your own experience with Core + Mythic + an inexperienced group. It is exactly the kind of input I was looking for, because opinions we can all have, but one from someone who has already actually done it carries much more weight. It is a shame though, because I do liek the concept of Mythic heroes.
Has anyone here used any of the 3rd party Mythic sourcebooks? Particularly, the ones from Legendary Games. I've always wondered if they helped with the inherent problems with Paizo's Mythic rules.
My first time running this AP was for my RL friends. While they are used to Pathfinder, they are not very well versed on it and usually just make choices because they "look cool" instead of being powerful or not. Because of this, I've indeed run it using only core rules.
We've gone up to book four before we as whole decided to stop. The reason? The mythic rules were just too broken, even for them who had absolutely no level of optimized characters. It was an extreme rocket-tag game. It was either the PCs stomping the encounters or the enemies stomping them, no middle term.
So, what I want to say is: you want to run a core-only WotR game? Sure, go for it and I really hope you have a good time. It will work just fine in terms of power, for you really don't need the other races/classes/feats/spells to succeed. It will also be a simpler game with less strange abilities and so on. What will not happen, however, is any change in this rocket-tag effect, because it happens because of the mythic rules, not anything else.
I had a similar experience with my IRL group. I love the AP to death. Even though it was rocket tag combats were taking forever to resolve. There was one battle that took a whole 4 hour session to do and that's when we decided to call it quits, it was towards the end of book 5.
I'll throw in my two cents. I am not applying to that other Wrath recruitment preciously because of the changes being made. I don't like them and don't want to play that game so I won't. No biggie.
I am GM'ing a Wrath game and my restrictions are a bit larger in a way and I still HATE mythic vital strike. Regardless of what you do ban it would be my advice. It makes every hit a critical basically and the multiplier goes up as you add feats. I am running a Paladin only game and restricted it to core plus a few things. When I had 6 in the game I was adding enemies and advanced template and maxing HP. I have found what I think works best is smart enemies. If the enemies have enough HP to take more than 1 vital strike it's a bonus but I am not currently upping those. Currently at the end of book 2.
In the end I think you run the game you want to run.
When I ran my IRL game I was routinely doubling the HP of enemies, just so they could get a single round of actions in.
The party became very reliant on a vital strike build with a single attack that completely obliterated a single target, eventually doubling HP didn't matter. What was funny was there was an encounter, completely skip-able, that was immune to the 1st attack in the round so the vital strike character hit it and did no damage. They ran away even though they could have easily beat the encounter if they just did a full attack.
So, is this campaign still likely to happen?
I liked the option GM Delmoth used for Mythic in his game. It doesn't use the Mythic feats or any of the over-powered stuff, but does make the heroes stronger, more "Heroic".
True. Take the Mythic points out of the equation....
How does gestalt compare to mythic rules? Is one very obviously more powerful or out-balanced than the other?