EmmaSno |
Ok so I haven't thought this build through fully yet, but is an Unchained Rogue using Claws as their primary weapon for DPS viable? My GM has explicitly allowed me to take the cat folk talents with unchained rogue. Also house ruling that Aspect of the beast stacks with Imp Natural attack and cat folk examplar (for 1d8 damage). Also said if I want I can still attack with my claws like natural weapons using claw blades, which I would greatly prefer for the feeling of using natural weapons and not just making another twf character, and I don't know how else I could make claw damage keep up. Even then though I'm not sure it's viable when my party will be getting (hypothetically) three or four iterative attacks
Taja the Barbarian |
Your fears are valid: A full attack of two full BAB Claw Attacks at level 1 is pretty good, great at level 3 (with full dex bonus to damage on each), but seriously underwhelming at level 20...
As stated by other posters, you typically want to get as many natural attacks as possible, but note that you won't get 'dex to damage' with any of these unless you select them for your second and third 'Finesse Training' class feature choices. Likewise, Weapon Focus and similar feats only apply to a specific natural attack type. This isn't necessarily a 'deal-breaker' since you can potentially still get sneak attack, but it is something to keep in mind.
At just 5,000 gold, the Ring of Rat Fangs is probably a good place to start getting additional Natural Weapon attacks (a Bite attack in this case).
At 8,500g, the Helm of the Mammoth Lord will add a Gore attack (which isn't actually explicitly stated to be a natural attack).
The Amulet of Mighty Fists is pretty much mandatory for such a build, and you'll probably need to emphasize a straight enhancement bonus so you can deal with Damage Resistances effectively (this will vary by campaign, but getting +3 to bypass Cold iron and Silver DRs is typically pretty important). The Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes could also work, but the limited number of uses per round based on your mediocre BAB make it a subpar option at best...
Claw Blades actually convert your claws into masterwork manufactured weapons, so using them is just your normal dual-wielding without the need to actual draw them.
Mysterious Stranger |
Rogues don’t get there third attack till 15th level. So, before that getting two attacks at full BAB is superior to using weapons. Even at 15th level the chance actually damaging your opponent is greater with the two attacks than taking the penalty when using weapons. Spending some feats on this is not a bad idea, but I would not worry too much about the base damage. The difference between 1d6 & 1d8 is on the average 1 point of damage. Picking an alternate racial trait and a single feat is probably good enough. Martial classes don’t get a third attack until 11th level. Even at that point their chance of hitting on the third hit is not that great. So, the extra attacks from the party are only going to matter at higher level.
Rogues get UMD as a class skill and Catfolk have a racial CHA bonus. A mid to high level catfolk unchained rogue should be able to get a very high UMD roll. This gives him more options in combat besides just attacking at melee. A wand of Invisibility cost 4,500 gold which may seem a bit pricy, but at 10th level is pocket change. It also allows you to use scrolls which are fairly cheap. The idea that a wizard can do anything a rogue can do and better because of spells is forgetting the rogue may have access to a lot of those spells through items.
Rogues are not casters and have few if any level dependent class abilities. This means they don’t get screwed when multiclassing. A 7th level unchained rogue with 5 levels of fighter would allow you to pick up Weapon training with Natural weapons, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for claws and Piranha Strike. The bonuses to hit from the BAB, weapon training and weapon focus cancel out the penalty for piranha strike, so you chance to hit is the same, but your damage goes up by +9. You lose 2d6 of sneak attack, but still have 4d6 sneak attack. Accomplished Sneak Attacker can boost this to 5d6, so you are only down 1d6 for 5 levels. Armor training also reduces the ACP on any armor you wear and increases the maximum DEX bonus. This also allows you to use a mithral breastplate and have the same restrictions as wearing a mithral chain shirt. You would be giving up 27 skill points and 3 rouge talents. Since the fighter levels are giving you 3 free feats plus all martial weapons and up to medium armor proficiency you can simply choose extra rogue talents if that is what you want.
So, this can easily be a very good build if you are open to multiclassing.
Trokarr |
You can dip a level into elemental ascetic kineticist to get always on kinetic fist adding 1d6 damage to all ur natural attacks. A level dip in elementalist shifter lets you add 1d6 energy damage to all melee attacks as a swift action. Taking accomplished sneak attacker will negate the loss of two levels of rogue. VMC cavalier with order of the blossom will add an extra 4d6 sneak attack by level cap. Dip a level in snakebite striker brawler to add another 1d6 sneak attack.
Mysterious Stranger |
One thing to also consider is that the character does not need to match the fighter or barbarian in combat. A rogue is never going to be able to match a dedicated martial class in combat. What they need to be able to do is to contribute to the combat in a meaningful way. As long as the rogue has a decent chance to hit and can deal enough damage without sneak attack that makes him a threat that should be sufficient to be considered a viable character. That way once sneak attack is added in the character will be fine.
What you need to do is to factor in what else the rogue is bringing to the table. When the rogue has a +36 perception, takes a -1 per 40 feet instead of -1 per 10 to spot the invisible attacker while asleep that should count for something. When the rogue can in 1 round use diplomacy to alter the attitude of an opponent so that the party does not have to fight them, that can be better than being able to deal as much damage as the fighter. If the cleric in the party is dead but had a scroll of raise dead, would you rather have a barbarian that deals massive damage, or a CHA based rogue with maxed out UMD in the party?
Derklord |
Also house ruling that Aspect of the beast stacks with Imp Natural attack and cat folk examplar (for 1d8 damage).
That's not really helpful. Each of those is +1 average damage per attack, that is not worth the price of a feat. Especially for the class with the highest bonus damage in the game.
Even then though I'm not sure it's viable when my party will be getting (hypothetically) three or four iterative attacks
It's not just the number of attacks that's the issue, but the Rogue's general weaknesses. No pounce, no flight, low attack roll bonus, low fort save, low will save, d8 HD with no defensive boosts, no in-class means to ensure sneak attacking is possible...
My recommendation: Take the Sylvan Trickster archetype, which lets you select Witch hexes. The Flight hex grants you, well, flight, and can help you flank with Press to the Wall. Greater Gift of Consumption grants you to all but immunity to fort-save effects. And especially for your build important, Animal Skin allows polymorphing into an animal, and conveniently cats grant pounce, and hey, you've already selected claws for dex-to-damage, so you can select bite with your 11th level Finesse Training and have 3 attacks at full BAB with dex-to-damage. Other notable options are Murksight if you can get your hands on a Saltspray Ring, and Hag's Eye to be actually good at scouting for once.
Derklord |
If the cleric in the party is dead but had a scroll of raise dead, would you rather have a barbarian that deals massive damage, or a CHA based rogue with maxed out UMD in the party?
I'd rather have a Bloodrager with massive damage and maxed-out UMD... of course, with the massive damage from the Barbarian, the enemy that kiled the Cleric probably would have died first.
In what universe is a Rogue cha-based, though?
Mysterious Stranger |
Rogues that specialize is social interactions often have a fairly high CHA. Calling them CHA based might be a bit much but some do have decent CHA. Ninja are basically a variant rogue and are CHA based so they could count.
Bloodragers may have a good CHA, but they do not have UMD as a class skill. Nor do they have an abundance of skill points. That means that most Bloodragers will not have a good UMD bonus. In fact most of them probably are untrained in it.
My whole point is that looking only at combat for the rogue ignores what the class is really about. You want to make sure you can contribute in a meaningful way, but trying to match the dedicated martial is a mistake.
Derklord |
My whole point is that looking only at combat for the rogue ignores what the class is really about. You want to make sure you can contribute in a meaningful way, but trying to match the dedicated martial is a mistake.
Yeah, I got that. But my point was that a couple of skill points and an increased ability score (that the Rogue doesn't otherwise profit from) doesn't give the group any reason to take the Rogue along, as others can easily provide that, too. Therefore, every Rogue (and every other character, for that matter) should strive to contribute to combat in a meaningful way.
Sure, you won't match the Barb in damage done in a vanilla fight. But what if the enemy is flying? The Barb is probably reduced to throwing javelins or something, while the Sylvan Trickster activates the Flight Hex and is suddenly miles ahead in damage done!
My point: Don't be satisfied with being bad in combat just because you have more skill points and class skills than most. Find a way to overcome the class's shortcomings!
Mysterious Stranger |
I never said the rogue should be bad in combat. I specifically stated the rogue needs to contribute to combat in a meaningful way. What I was saying is look to what else the rogue can bring to the table.
Being able to spot the invisible assassin before he gets near the party is a very useful thing, when the character can do it while asleep is even more valuable.
UMD is an underrated skill for a rogue. It allows him to use a lot of magic items they normally cannot. If done right they can steal a page from the wizards play book. An invisible wizard may be able to match a rogue in stealthy, but he cannot match the invisible rogue that used a scroll of invisibility.
A high-level unchained rogue with the diplomacy skill unlock and maxed out diplomacy could be able to prevent an attack by shifting the enemy's attitude to a more friendly attitude. I don’t think the barbarian is going to be able to do that.