I'm bad at using the DPR calculator, but would like help comparing options. In a few levels my sukgung sniper gunslinger will have a bunch of two action strikes competing with each other. I'd like help figuring out when to use each, or if any are entirely skippable.
Advanced Deed 9th
Vital Shot [two-actions]
Your careful shot against an unsuspecting opponent pierces a vital artery or organ. Make a ranged Strike. If the target is flat-footed, the Strike deals an extra die of weapon damage, and the foe takes persistent bleed damage equal to the amount of precision damage from your One Shot, One Kill.
Can't be skipped. Obvious best use: at the beginning of tough solo encounters, or against a fleeing opponent. Problem: bleed damage won't stack with crossbow crit spec.
Sniper's Aim Feat 6
[two-actions]Concentrate
Prerequisites way of the sniper
You take an extra moment to carefully sync your aim and breathing, then fire a shot with great accuracy. Make a ranged weapon Strike. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to this Strike's attack roll and ignore the target's concealment. If you're using a kickback firearm, you don't take the normal circumstance penalty on this Strike for not having the required Strength score or firing without using a stabilizer.
Super appealing since it raises crit chance and big crits are why I play the class. Obvious best use: when the enemy has concealment. When not to use: crit immune enemies, or when I have an ally Aiding already. (Which doesn't seem to be often in my party.)
Megaton Strike[two-actions] Feat 4
Prerequisites armor, construct, or weapon innovation
You activate gears, explosives, and other hidden mechanisms in your innovation to make a powerful attack. You make a Strike, dealing an extra die of weapon damage. If you're at least 10th level, increase this to two extra dice, and if you're at least 18th level, increase it to three extra dice. The type of Strike you can make depends on your innovation.
Unstable Function You put even more force into the Strike, though you risk stress fractures to your innovation. Add the unstable trait to Megaton Strike. The Strike deals another extra damage die, for a total of two extra dice at 4th level, three at 10th level, and four at 18th level.
Archetype option, very tempting. I'm pretty sure the unstable option will out damage anything else on average, but I'm not about the regular version. But I think the extra dice get multiplied on a crit which is super tempting. (But they don't add extra damage from things like Sniping Duo, right?) This also seems like my best unstable option until Clockwork Celerity.
Elemental Ammunition
Activate [one-action] Interact
When activated, the reservoir of alchemical reagents in elemental ammunition atomizes on impact, dealing persistent acid, cold, electricity, fire, or poison damage to the target and splash damage in addition to the damage the attack normally deals. Each damage type requires a different formula, and the ammunition gains a trait matching the damage type.
(Lesser)The ammunition deals 1 persistent damage and 1 splash damage.
(Moderate)The ammunition deals 2d4 persistent damage and 2 splash damage.
I already have munitions crafter, so I'll have enough rounds of the lesser to use for every shot of the day if I wanted to... Which I generally won't because the damage is piddly for the action cost. Only time to use: when targeting weakness. I could take munitions machinist at 6th or 8th, but the 2d4 doesn't trigger weakness any better than the 1st level versions, and I can't imagine this is worth using over the options above otherwise.
Standard strikes: Seems worth checking whether the standard 2/1/2 single action strike/reload variation compares favorably to the above. I also have a sorcerer friend with haste, which might make regular strikes better.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's a bit hard to calculate DPR considering that you need to Reload. So it's more DPF than DPR that we need to calculate.
Do you have easy access to Off Guard? Advanced Deed is roughly equivalent to Megaton Strike with just this condition so it impacts how interesting Megaton Strike is.
Sniper's Aim is only interesting if the enemy has Concealment. Otherwise, it's just weaker than everything else.
Also, you haven't given the runes you have (or intend to have) on your weapon. It changes damage calculations (the more damaging Runes you have and the less interesting abilities like Megaton Strike are). Can you give your average damage per shot? With biggest forseable changes?
|
Elemental Ammunition can do a lot of damage in the right scenario.
We recently fought a construct with 10 resistance to physical, but 10 weakness to electricity. The 1 persistant damage - amplified to 11 - contributed a lot.
Without a weakness it's rather useless.
Regarding off guard: Best to cooperate with your group. Boss-type enemies need to be debuffed, try to encourage others to trip/grapple to apply vital shot.
I would not fret about the crit, against enemies that you crit a lot you probably don't need vital shot as you can hit them with your second strike.
It's a bit hard to calculate DPR considering that you need to Reload. So it's more DPF than DPR that we need to calculate.
Do you have easy access to Off Guard? Advanced Deed is roughly equivalent to Megaton Strike with just this condition so it impacts how interesting Megaton Strike is.
Sniper's Aim is only interesting if the enemy has Concealment. Otherwise, it's just weaker than everything else.
Also, you haven't given the runes you have (or intend to have) on your weapon. It changes damage calculations (the more damaging Runes you have and the less interesting abilities like Megaton Strike are). Can you give your average damage per shot? With biggest forseable changes?
I think I'll have off guard more often than not because i actually understand the stealth rules (applying cover bonuses, failures on initiative rolls still leaving you hidden), maxed my bonus, and have covered reload. We used to have a snagging strike fighter but he's gone, sadly. Best party support I can expect is briny bolt from the sorcerer, and maybe bless from the cleric.
I'm surprised Sniper's Aim is ranked so low TBH, given how juicy crits are.
At level 5, I have a flaming +1 striking Sukgung. The flaming rune was found way ahead of "schedule" but I don't expect that to be true for future fundamental runes. I'll probably take astral as my next property rune. I can't think of much better unless I can inventor modifications to make my Sukgung bludgeoning for Crushing.
My average damage is:
Hit: 2d8 piercing +1d6 fire +1 circumstance= 13.5
Crit 2*(2d12 piercing +1d6 fire +1 circumstance) +1d12 + 1d10 Persistent fire + 1d8+1 persistent bleed = 41.5 initial and 11 persistent.
So my initial damage triples on a crit and quadruples if you count persistent. Hence why I thought bumping my crit odds by +2 might be better than another d8 or two.
Well, that's simple, a +2 is 10% chance to crit instead of missing, so 5.25 extra points of damage acccording to your calculations. 2 dice is 9 points of damage, only with the 10 chances to succeed at your attack it's 4.5 extra points of damage. Then, you count the damage bonus on crits (these dice are affected by Fatal as they are weapon damage dice so it's 2d12). So, yeah, you deal more damage with Megaton Strike and slightly higher ones with Advanced Deeds.
My average damage is:
Hit: 2d8 piercing +1d6 fire +1 circumstance= 13.5
Crit 2*(2d12 piercing +1d6 fire +1 circumstance) +1d12 + 1d10 Persistent fire + 1d8+1 persistent bleed = 41.5 initial and 11 persistent.
So my initial damage triples on a crit and quadruples if you count persistent. Hence why I thought bumping my crit odds by +2 might be better than another d8 or two.
if you have
25% miss, 50% hit, 25% crit.And add +2 you end up with
15% miss, 50% hit, 35% crit.
Assuming you don't already hit on a 2, adding +2 to hit will net add 10% crit.
41.5 * 10% = +4.14 damage per shot.
Compared to adding 1d8
25% =0
50% * 4.5
25% * 9
= 4.5
Overall, the higher your accuracy, the more you want damage, and the higher your damage, the more you want accuracy. And gunslinger have higher accuracy by default.
Forgive me, I'm bad at this, as I mentioned. But I don't quite follow. Could you explain in a little more detail? Or if you know how to input it into a chart that would help too.
Also, forgot to mention one shot, one kill. It's only one attack per fight at best, but it adds 1d6 at my current level and 2d6 at level 9.
Assuming you roll a d20
1-5 is a miss (25%)
6-15 is a hit (50%)
16-20 is a crit (25%)
+2 will make it
1-3 is a miss (15%)
4-13 is a a hit (50%)
14-20 us a crit (35%)
So +2 gives 10% crits.
10% chance at 41.5 damage = +4.15 average damage over a normal 1 action shot.
The math is pretty tight in PF2. So your looking at using feats in at situations. Acid damage when weak to acid. Snipers Aim when they have concealment. Ect...
Got it. So 4.15 damage from the crit initial damage. But you'd also add 10% of the regular hit, right? That's 1.35, for a total of 5.5. If you tack on one shot one kill, that's another .35 (10% of the average of a normal hit) and .7 (10% of a crit) for 6.55. That's pretty modest, and maybe worse than getting a second attack every other round, but...
It doesn't account for the persistent damage, right ? IIRC the average number of ticks is about 2.5, so we are talking about another 27.5 damage from a crit. 10% of that would be 2.75. So we are looking at... A 9.3 damage increase for Sniper's Aim with one shot one kill, assuming the creature survives long enough to take the persistent multiple times. It drops by to about 8.25 without one shot one kill.
That still looks like a significant lead on regular Megaton Strike... but it looks like the adding 1d8 didn't account for fatal. So it is actually:
25% =0
50% * 4.5
25% * 13
= 5.5
Still worse than Sniper's aim, even without one shot, one kill. However, it would win out with the another dice from unstable. At 10th level it would pull further ahead thanks to another dice, though once greater striking another property rune enter the equation this needs to be done again.
So prior to Vital Shot, it feels like the best plan is:
Turn 1: Sniper's Aim (to maximize the extra d6 from one shot one kill)
Turn 2: Unstable Megaton
Turn 3+: Sniper's aim until level 10, Megaton Strike after level 10.
Using either option costs me two -5 attacks across 3 rounds, though, and I have no idea how that compares. It is too late for me to math it out tonight.
Vital Shot, meanwhile, would add 5.5 initial damage and then
25% =0
50% * 7
25% * 14
= 7 damage, x2.5 ticks = 17.5 extra damage. Wow, that's more than I'd have thought. 23 extra damage. Did I do that right? If so, Vital Strike becomes the clear winner on anything that will survive long enough for persistent to pay off. Except... Crap, the crossbow crit speak bleed damage wouldn't stack with Vital Strike. That's shaving off 3.4375 damage if I did the math right. Still really good though.
So at level 9 the rotation becomes:
Turn 1: Vital Strike
Turn 2: Unstable Megaton
Turn 3: Sniper's Aim, switching to Megaton at 10th.
I think in practice all 3 will have situations that the average damage won't cover, though. For example, Megaton is reliant on the persistent damage and therefore better for focus firing weaker targets. Meanwhile, Sniper's Aim will improve my odds of landing the the kill shot if a creature has single digit health left.
Phew. Did I do that all right?
Got it. So 4.15 damage from the crit initial damage. But you'd also add 10% of the regular hit, right?
Nope. The number to hit dropped by 2, but the number to crit also dropped by 2. So you're still at 50% chance, still 10 out of 20, to regular hit.
it doesn't account for the persistent damage, right ?
I did not include persistent damage, one shot one kill, and also forgot to Fatal the Megaton Strike.
Anyways. +2 is only half of Sniper's Aim power. Ignoring Concealment is the other half. Use Sniper's Aim on an enemy with concealment and it goes
40% miss -> 15% miss
40% hit -> 50% hit
20% crit -> 35% crit
Also, if the enemy only has 5 HP, Megaton Stike won't add anything. Sniper's Aim works well in that situation too.
Using either option costs me two -5 attacks across 3 roundsI feel missing out on Fake Out is a bigger issue.
But -5 is 25% (5 out of 20) so would give..
50%
45%
5%, since you still crit on a Nat20.And 2 shots out of 3 rounds would multiple by 2/3s.
At some point, Captain, you'll have to choose: Either you do the math yourself or you trust us :)
As a side note:
It doesn't account for the persistent damage, right ? IIRC the average number of ticks is about 2.5
It's 3.3333 considering an infinite number of rounds. But realistically it's way less than that. I consider 1 point of persistent damage to be equivalent to 1 point of damage, it's way closer to its actual value. And in your case it's even less than that as you apply it after a critical hit and critical hits tend to reduce enemy's life expectancy considerably.
Also, remember that Bleeding is a type of physical damage so anything with a physical resistance will just shrug, on top of all the bleeding immune enemies. So, really, I'd not count much on Persistent Bleed on critical hit and I'd count the one from Vital Shot as a single d6 for basic situations (against bosses, on the other hand, go Vital Shot go!).But overall, you end up in a pretty tight situation. Megaton Strike is the highest damage dealing one and it doesn't care about bleeding immunity, lack of Off Guard or enemy already Bleeding. But on the other hand it's once per fight (roughly). Sniper's Aim is good against Concealed enemies, and it can make for a poor Megaton Strike when you can't use Vital Shot. I'm not really convinced by Sniper's Aim. Advanced Elemental Ammunitions are limited to Weakness exploitation, so it's rare.
Personally, I'd go for Megaton Strike as a back up to Vital Shot. It's definitely the one you'll use the most often despite its once per combat limitation.
Lol that was my attempt at doing the math myself, in just bad at it.
You can use Megaton Strike more than once per combat, but you only gain one more dice on top of its baseline once per fight. Basically it is power attack with an option to go above and beyond that once per fight.
Lol that was my attempt at doing the math myself, in just bad at it.
You can use Megaton Strike more than once per combat, but you only gain one more dice on top of its baseline once per fight. Basically it is power attack with an option to go above and beyond that once per fight.
Yes, it's true but it's much worse (it's still in the ballpark of Sniper's Aim, I don't know which one is really better). But considering that you have Vital Shot, too, I don't see you using stable Megaton Strike often.
Does Sniper's Aim at least have a place prior to being able to get the other two action options? I'm not sure what else to do with that feat anyway. I guess there's always Sniping Duo.
Fake Out is in a weird position. I'll probably retrain into it soon, but my attack bonus wasn't high enough before to maximize it, especially with the higher pre-remaster DC. Quick draw was also better than you'would think because the majority of our encounters were nighttime ambushes, so I saved an option a lot. I also had bombs and a hand crossbow to fall back on, which ok damage pre-runes. Now thG I have master proficiency, retraining into Fake Out is more tempting. I can use a gauntlet bow for rounds I don't end my turn with a loaded Suki. It just is awkward with my stealth use.
But I think Fake Out is less important with amped message in the party. Sniping Duo can grant powerful reaction options.
Fake out is nice in combination with cooperative nature, the gunslingers high attack bonus and an additional +4 to aid result in a lot of crits.
Yeah, but I'm a kobold, not a human.
Fake out is nice in combination with cooperative nature, the gunslingers high attack bonus and an additional +4 to aid result in a lot of crits.Yeah, but I'm a kobold, not a human.
doesn't matter that much.
At level 5 you have a +15 vs a DC 15
So you are handing out either a +1 or +3, with a 5% chance at 0. And the chance to hand out +3 grows as you level.
Humans can hand out the +3 a bit more often, but it's an easy to trigger reaction.
Fake out is nice in combination with cooperative nature, the gunslingers high attack bonus and an additional +4 to aid result in a lot of crits.Yeah, but I'm a kobold, not a human.doesn't matter that much.
At level 5 you have a +15 vs a DC 15
So you are handing out either a +1 or +3, with a 5% chance at 0. And the chance to hand out +3 grows as you level.
Humans can hand out the +3 a bit more often, but it's an easy to trigger reaction.
Oh, I know it is still worthwhile reaction, I'm just noting it isn't AS good for me. The other thing is amped message and sniping duo can both let me strike with my reaction, and I'm pretty sure that's going to be better for a while at least.
Thanks for y'all's help. I think I have some more accurate numbers now. I'm going to assume persistent damage and regular damage are one to one in value per SuperBidi'd suggestion, bringing my average crit damage to 52.5
-5 shot: average 8.7 damage. (If done every two rounds, it is 5.8 damage increase per turn.)
Sniper's Aim: 5.25, or 5.95 with one shot one kill.
So basically Sniper's Aim is a good for an opening shot but I should only use it past that point against concealment. Definitely useful at level 6, before I can get Megaton Strike or Vital Shot. I would need to rerun the numbers when I get 3 additional weapon specialization damage at 7, and then again at 8 and 9 when those other options become available.
If I can regularly take 2 strikes per round from haste, that's a really strong option, as is amped message.
Oh, I know it is still worthwhile reaction, I'm just noting it isn't AS good for me. The other thing is amped message and sniping duo can both let me strike with my reaction, and I'm pretty sure that's going to be better for a while at least.
yes
Extra Strike with no MAP is going to be better than +4.But that also takes an extra reload.
And your allies actions.
But your turns might look like...
1: vital shot, reload, reaction strike
2: reload, strike, reload, reaction stike
3: reload, strike, reload, reaction stike
If I can regularly take 2 strikes per round from haste, that's a really strong option, as is amped message.
If you have haste and an reaction then probably something like...
1: stike, reload, stike, reload, reaction shot
2: reload, megaton strike, reload, reload, reaction shot
3: reload, snipers aim, reload, reactions shot.