Fiend's Door ancestry feat no longer available to normal 'Tieflings'

[Cool Tiefling]

A few years ago I made a Tiefling character that now has the 13rd level Fiend's Door ancestry feat (Legacy).

But when the new Remastered rules came out we decided to transition to what everyone apparently calls 'a large update - not a new version' (I am of another opinion but whatever..)

I recently decided to convert my build in Pathbuilder to Remastered rules and became aware of a gatekeeping and imo unnecessary ruleschange. Fiend's Door - now renamed Slip Sideways - now has the prerequisite of any fiendish lineage feat being chosen at level 1.

Why? Tieflings (Fiendish Nephilim if you prefer) used to be vague in their lineage. You didn't have to choose a Hell lawyer type like Hellspawn or any other lineage just to be Fiendish. And Fiend's Door was still available to you. Now, just because Nephilim may origin from both the Pit and Heaven and anywhere in between, you now have to spend your 1st level ancestry in a particular way to qualify for Fiend's Door/Step Sideways?

How do I make my character 'Fiendish' other than by choosing a lineage feat - which I refuse to do?

My GM have no problem with me having the old Fiend's Door feat, but I want a more general solution that works with RAW/RAI.

Sorry for the rant.

[Baarogue]

If it wasn't reprinted with the same name it's still usable as it was, especially if you're playing at your own game. But if you're worried about PFS it's spelled out even more clearly there. "The nephilim trait is interchangeable with either the aasimar or tiefling trait and vice versa, but aasimar characters may not treat that trait as interchangeable with the tiefling trait (or vice versa)."

If your character was created as a "tiefling" then it is STILL a tiefling and qualifies for tiefling AND nephilim (but NOT aasimar) feats. If you can't rebuild it in Pathbuilder then that's a Pathbuilder problem, not a game system problem. All "legacy" 2e content is still compatible with 2r content. As a tiefling, due to that line I quoted above, you can take "nephilim" remastered feats you qualify for or legacy tiefling feats like Fiend's Door, since you only technically don't qualify for Slip Sideways

And it all works with RAW/RAI since Paizo have said it over and over

[Ruzza]

Or to put it simply, the old feats and legacy content are not gone if it goes by another name. There's the Remastered "Slip Sideways" which has the Nephelim trait and requires a lineage feat. Then there's "Fiend's Door" which as the Tiefling trait. As your character is a Tiefling, you still would have the "Fiend's Door" feat. There is no conversion needed in this situation.

[Cool Tiefling]

Ruzza wrote:

Or to put it simply, the old feats and legacy content are not gone if it goes by another name. There's the Remastered "Slip Sideways" which has the Nephelim trait and requires a lineage feat. Then there's "Fiend's Door" which as the Tiefling trait. As your character is a Tiefling, you still would have the "Fiend's Door" feat. There is no conversion needed in this situation.

Thank you Baarogue and Ruzza for your answers. Both your answers are in line with my own judgement of the matter. However, what really bothers me is that there are no anonymous fiendish lineage feat (that gives you dark vision) that slso allows you to pick the Step Sideways feat... in case you don't use the Legacy version.

Also I know that Pathbuilder isn't the game but it IS still the most popular characterbuilder out there. And a Remastered solution should imo have been made available from the get go. And the lack of this bothers me since now you can't - easily - create a fiendish nephilim that may gain Side Step.

But this is just my humble 5 cents worth of opinion.

[Claxon]

Is there any particular reason why your so opposed to selecting a fiendish lineage feat?

Slip sideways works with any of Grimspawn (NE daemons), Pitborn (CE demons), or Hellspawn (LE devils).

Without selecting one of these, your Nephilim doesn't have a clear distinction of being a "tiefling" it's a "planar scion" of indeterminate origin manifesting no real features/traits.

If anything, I think there's an argument to be made that you should get one of the lineage feats (for free) and be required to select one.

If things weren't written as they are, you could end up with Celestial nephilim taking something that was meant for evil descended characters.

[Cool Tiefling]

Claxon wrote:

Is there any particular reason why your so opposed to selecting a fiendish lineage feat?

Slip sideways works with any of Grimspawn (NE daemons), Pitborn (CE demons), or Hellspawn (LE devils).

Without selecting one of these, your Nephilim doesn't have a clear distinction of being a "tiefling" it's a "planar scion" of indeterminate origin manifesting no real features/traits.

If anything, I think there's an argument to be made that you should get one of the lineage feats (for free) and be required to select one.

If things weren't written as they are, you could end up with Celestial nephilim taking something that was meant for evil descended characters.

Yes, there's a reason - maybe more than one - why I oppose this idea so much.

First and foremost, I dislike the tropes depicted in the lineages. A devil might be many other things besides a deceptive lawyer. A demon might be something other than a brute and so on. I like to create my characters own backstory based on what I think is the right fiendish ancestry for my Tiefling who can't even call himself that anymore.

My character has plenty of fiendish traits. Only they aren't based on sny lame lineage feat.

I think that you should be able to choose whether your ancestry is fiendish based or not without the need to spend your precious ancestry feat on something you don't like and previously could easily avoid.

[Mathmuse]

Cool Tiefling wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Is there any particular reason why your so opposed to selecting a fiendish lineage feat?

Slip sideways works with any of Grimspawn (NE daemons), Pitborn (CE demons), or Hellspawn (LE devils).

Without selecting one of these, your Nephilim doesn't have a clear distinction of being a "tiefling" it's a "planar scion" of indeterminate origin manifesting no real features/traits.
...

Yes, there's a reason - maybe more than one - why I oppose this idea so much.

First and foremost, I dislike the tropes depicted in the lineages. A devil might be many other things besides a deceptive lawyer. A demon might be something other than a brute and so on. I like to create my characters own backstory based on what I think is the right fiendish ancestry for my Tiefling who can't even call himself that anymore.

I agree with Cool Tiefling's first and foremost reason. I recently created an NPC tiefling named Holliandra after the Brandon Dunn art I used for her token. She is a fellow student at the Magaambya School of Magic in the Strength of Thousands adventure path I started a month ago, because my players enjoy their characters meeting other students.

Her ancestry is half Alijae elf and half succubus to tie into the Mwangi Expanse setting, which would make her a Pitborn. However, her backstory is that her exiled elf father raised her to pretend to be an aiuvarin (elf-human crossbreed) with the aid of a Hat of Disguise (Masquerade Scarf). She is a druidic student with interest in magical crafting, so nothing about the Pitborn fits her. Ironically, Hellspawn's Deception fits her childhood in disguise, but the Alijae elves interact with demons not devils.

She is an NPC, so I am not limited by PC rules. And Holliandra will never reach 13th level to take the Slip Sideways feat. Nevertheless, the implication that demonic heritage makes a character athletic and brutish interferes with my setting.