I'm looking for help in preparing myself in advance for counter-arguments.
The table has 2 people who are pretty open to whatever, but 2 pretty hefty rules lawyers. They're good peoples just, y'know. We do try to play RAW as closely as we can to avoid things spiraling and arguments coming up.
Parties alchemist just hit 14 and took Greater Alchemical Simulacrum with my blessing that he doesn't try to abuse it to break the game open.
His plan is to grow a succubus (for the usual profane gift cheese) and I'm okay with it. +2 int at level 14 isn't going to break the game and honestly it kinda fits his character.
However, he asked me if the rule for monster advancement is DM only. Basically, he would like me to allow him to treat GAS like it's weird science and not a magical effect which...I'm also inclined to allow. He wants to create a simulacrum of a Succubus who just happens to dabble in alchemy and stick her with a necklace of adaptation in his portable hole where she can sit there with crafting feats cranking out preserving flasks (and occasionally take her out to dinner to creep out the rest of the party).
Given that he could just take leadership and accomplish basically the same thing, and that as vague and abuseable as simulacrum can be, I'm again...inclined to allow it. In fact, I was thinking of 'soft house ruling' that at 14 he gets GAS but can't really use it as he wants but if he takes leadership at 15, then I'd let him build his Frankenuccubus.
A 3 feat tax (alchemical simulacrum, greater alchemical simulacrum, leadership) for some roleplay potential and half off preserving flasks seems pretty reasonable to me.
However, I also don't want to upset the more rules lawyery people at the table and am hoping to get ahead of any problems they may point out with all of this at our next session. Obviously "I'm the DM, what I say goes" along with the "It's my house, my materials and my pizza" are strong arguments but I want to avoid going that route.
Is there anything -obviously- against the rules I'm missing?
I guess the more condensed form of my question is, is there anything that would stop me as the GM from making a monster with character levels for a PC with simulacrum to copy.
One thing you are not factoring in is that Simulacrum creates a duplicate of a specific creature. So unless there is already a succubus with the creation feats already in existence you cannot create a simulacrum of one. Even if one exists the player would need to be aware of its existence.
Simulacrum cannot become more powerful, including gaining levels or abilities. It also has half the abilities of any creature it duplicates. So, the succubus will have half the HD special abilities and skill ranks of the original and will never improve.
-Rant on-
If you follow strict raw, leadership doesn't even come close controlling the creature as do clone, as it state the cohort and followers are NPC as in control of the gm not the player (non player characters).
they are not mini-pc for the player to control. and in fact having them have a say in what exactly their build would be is also not part of the rules. the character with leadership might op for a fighter cohort and wait to hire one, but having him decide it's feats, stats spread, starting gear etc is out of the question the same as with any other npc.
Having the cohort npc sit in a portable hole for day on end sweat-shopping away is very poor treatment and should warrant an immediate confrontation and likely resining.
-Rant off-
as mentioned by Mysterious Stranger the clone need to be a copy of a specific Indvidual creature. so first one must find the right target to clone (with the right feats) and get a sample before creating a Dolly out of it.
Thank you kindly. For what it's worth, for simulacrum you don't need a piece of the target. That's only clone.
It sounds like there's no reason I can't stat a custom Succubus and let him make a simulacrum of it (at half HD). The question at this point becomes how to go about doing it in a way that is fun and interesting.
Thanks again my friends!
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Thank you kindly. For what it's worth, for simulacrum you don't need a piece of the target. That's only clone.
It is an old rule that wasn't ported in Pathfinder. A serious mistake.
It sounds like there's no reason I can't stat a custom Succubus and let him make a simulacrum of it (at half HD). The question at this point becomes how to go about doing it in a way that is fun and interesting.Thanks again my friends!
It appears to be the same as the original,
So he can copy a generic succubus, or a specific one of which he has heard/he knows, but he can't make a simulacrum of "a succubus with this and that skill, and this specific class" unless he knows of one.
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Having the cohort npc sit in a portable hole for day on end sweat-shopping away is very poor treatment and should warrant an immediate confrontation and likely resining.
tick her with a necklace of adaptation in his portable hole where she can sit there with crafting feats cranking out preserving flasks (and occasionally take her out to dinner to creep out the rest of the party).
That gave me a lot of creeping signals about abuse. Even a simulacrum is a creature, not a machine.
It says that explicitly in the alchemical simulacrum "The created simulacrum is a creature, not a supernatural effect."I consider all simulacrum creatures.
They are under your "absolute command", but beyond that, they are free to do whatever they want (i.e., if you order them to "never betray me", they will never betray you, but they can be still snarky, or seductive, or betray other party members, depending on their alignment and how they are treated).
Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).
The spell specifically states it creates a duplicate of any creature. A duplicate is an exact copy of something. You don’t need to have a part of the original or to have control of the creature, but do have a creature to copy. You cannot create a simulacrum of a generic creature and give it any ability you want. You have to create a duplicate of an existing creature. You cannot copy a generic royal guardsman, but can copy Sam the royal guardsman.
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Actually, the Succubus needs a way higher Alchemist level to make Wondrous items.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
The Succubus SLAs don't fulfill that requirement.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th)
She doesn't have a caster level, she has a CL for her SLA.
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells".
So she would need:
1) Spell Knowledge;2) the ability to use level 3 extract, so to be a level 7 Alchemist;
3) and then Craft wondrous items (and without retraining that requires her to have 17 HD).
Without some major rule tweaking all that requires the Alchemist to be level 17 and to copy a 34 HD succubus with 14 alchemist levels.
Even with retraining, your simulacrum needs to be a 15 HD Succubus (i.e. a 8 HD succubus with 7 Alchemist levels) and you need a 30 HD succubus to copy.
Alchemist: Is an alchemist a spellcaster for the purpose of crafting magic items other than potions?
As written, no, alchemists are not spellcasters, and therefore can't select feats such as Craft Wondrous Item.
The design team is aware that this creates some thematic problems with the idea of an alchemist creating golems and so on, and plan to examine this in the future.
posted March 2013 | back to top
Apparently, the solution was to create some archetype that can craft constructs.
Thank you to everyone for the thoughts and feedback. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me.
Actually,
I believe the master craftsman feat allows you to let you use your Craft(X) skill ranks as a substitute for caster level. Granted, that's another one of those vaguely worded feats that's going to be left up to my interpretation.
For the most part I trust this player to not abuse it.
This thread has encouraged me to make it a monumental task though.
They are under your "absolute command", but beyond that, they are free to do whatever they want (i.e., if you order them to "never betray me", they will never betray you, but they can be still snarky, or seductive, or betray other party members, depending on their alignment and how they are treated).
Good point. I'll make sure he has it be more than just a "10 feats for the price of two" thing.
I think instead of creating a succubus with crafting feat, why not create a succubus for profane gift and another random simulacrum with crafting feat?
Thematic reasons mostly. It would be fitting with his character which is why I'm entertaining this mess of an idea in the first place.