Undead, cremation, and cultural relativism


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I have an idea about undead that I'm not 100% sure is supported by Golarion lore. My assumption. There are lots of ways undead can manifest, but as a general rule of thumb, the more disrespect shown to the dead, the higher the chances of an undead spontaneously manifesting. But I'd also assume disrespect is defined through cultural relativism. Some cultures want to be buried, some want to be cremated, some want to be tossed into the ocean, others would want to be left out in the woods for nature and decay to take its course.

Certain scenarios might call for going against cultural norms, like if there's an independent force animating corpses en masse. Some people might assume cremation is the safest way to dispose of corpses, but I imagine that isn't always true. Saranrites seem like they'd be pro-cremation, but if you burn Viking corpses without the boat I assume you'd get Viking ghosts instead of Viking skeletons/zombies/draugher.

Am I right?

1. Do the odds of undead spontaneously manifesting (ie without the intervention of a necromancer type) go up if you a corpse isn't respectfully handled?

2. Are respectful funeral rites defined by the deceased's religion?

3. Does burning corpses of people who'd rather not be cremated just change the type of undead which will manifest?

I recently lost my witch, Momma Maggot, who worshipped Mother Vulture. She got mostly eaten by a werewolf but the party recovered her remains. I decided she had a will which specified how she'd like her remains to be completely consumed, ideally partially by those closest to her but otherwise by scavengers and fungus. If the party insists on giving her a "proper burial," the GM and I agree Momma should rise as something nasty. Which brings me to question 4...

4. What would be an appropriate undead for the character above? She had the Starless Shadow patron so a greater shadow seems obvious, but they are kind of boring. I was thinking of a revenant. The werewolf was identified and not in control of himself, so he's basically free and clear as long as appropriate full moon precautions are taken. Seems like having him get attacked in human form would be juicy.


1) sounds like it, in that undead seem to turn up from many cases where the creature died in 'improper' circumstances. Though there are a lot of criminals that become undead, with no obvious indication of whether the burial rites affect it.

2) Yes and no, in that it seems to be a matter of what the creature thinks is important at the time. For example, ghosts want what they want, religion notwithstanding.

3) Maybe. I imagine it makes some corporeal types much harder to manifest.

4) Depends on the CR you want. I think you'll need to roll your own, and it will depend on how much of a story you want to make out of it. I might take the vulture and buried aspects and have a vulture/human shadow/ghost that arises from a Gravebound or Immured. The ghost haunts the PCs until they return to the burial to dig her up, whereupon the Gravebound tries to bury them to see how they like it. Both will keep reappearing until the body is exhumed and left out for the vultures with proper ceremony.


Captain Morgan wrote:
1. Do the odds of undead spontaneously manifesting (ie without the intervention of a necromancer type) go up if a corpse isn't respectfully handled?

I suppose that's possible, and undead do seem to just appear when required by the story, but I think that the real ingredient that makes undead more likely to arise is trauma, rather than disrespect of their remains. I could see the argument that disrespecting their remains can cause trauma, but off-hand I can't think of many undead who arise from disrespectful funerary practices, and tons who rise because they were burned alive, eaten by monsters, imprisoned, murdered, etc. It's almost like trauma gives the Void a vector for touching someone's body and soul, and the kind of trauma determines which specific vector the Void can take.

Captain Morgan wrote:
2. Are respectful funeral rites defined by the deceased's religion?

I'd say so, at least if you're going with the idea that disrespect creates undead. The prospective undead being the arbiter of what constitutes respect makes the most sense to me, though I'm sure the intentions of those who lay them to rest also matter to an extent.

Captain Morgan wrote:
3. Does burning corpses of people who'd rather not be cremated just change the type of undead which will manifest?

That sounds too cool to not do, and I'd say yes for that reason alone. Reminds me of a joke I was telling some of my gaming friends the other day.

GM: Congratulations, you have burned all the bodies. Now none of them will rise as zombies.
Party: Hurray!
GM: They're all going to rise as ash wraiths, instead.

Captain Morgan wrote:

I recently lost my witch, Momma Maggot, who worshipped Mother Vulture. She got mostly eaten by a werewolf but the party recovered her remains. I decided she had a will which specified how she'd like her remains to be completely consumed, ideally partially by those closest to her but otherwise by scavengers and fungus. If the party insists on giving her a "proper burial," the GM and I agree Momma should rise as something nasty. Which brings me to question 4...

4. What would be an appropriate undead for the character above? She had the Starless Shadow patron so a greater shadow seems obvious, but they are kind of boring. I was thinking of a revenant. The werewolf was identified and not in control of himself, so he's basically free and clear as long as appropriate full moon precautions are taken. Seems like having him get attacked in human form would be juicy.

I'm not sure what level your party is, but if you're looking for some general suggestions I'd suggest maybe a bhuta for the nature connections, a beefed up bog mummy if they try to bury your PC in somewhere swampy, a corpseroot with the Fungus instead of Plant traits intent on eating the party since they wouldn't eat the character, a guecubu for the burial theming and obsession with vengeance, or a witchfire because, well, they were a witch.


My answer to all 3 questions is generally no.

I think "disrespect" of the corpse is used within a story as a potential reason for undead to rise, but there is nothing mechanically (that I'm aware of) that makes it the case.

But story can literally come up with any reason for undead to spawn.

I simply don't think disrespect is sufficient on it's own to cause undead to rise.


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I have been skimming the Book of the Dead for a bit now, and while Geb's notes don't seem ever to touch on the disposition of the corpse (much more the manner of death and ambient void), there is at least one monster--a particular species of beheaded called the daqqanoenyent--which arises spontaneously when victims of mass death have their bodies desecrated to deny a chance at a respectful rest. Furthermore, the 'hungry ghost' variant arises from ghosts who were denied proper burial or even had their graves neglected (notably these are listed as Neutral), and the Little Man in the Woods is a murder victim left in the forest without proper burial, "that would smooth his spirit's transition to the afterlife" which leaves him unable to leave the mortal plane.

So, I don't know if it's the odds per se, but unambiguously there are some undead who rise as a result of improper respect shown to their remains. Planar Adventures likewise corroborates that it matters more what the soul's convictions are regarding the appropriate procedures of their afterlife journey than what those procedures are.

To touch on another question, Geb seems to think it silly that most cultures don't cremate their dead, but it's possible that should this method of disposition have been more common we would simply see more ash- and flame-related undead next to all the ghosts if/when those final resting procedures failed to settle the soul.

Liberty's Edge

Undead rising because of the manner of their death seems a rather recent notion to me.

IIRC lack of respect from the living to the dead, including improper burial, has been considered IRL a source of undead activity for ages.

Heck, even burying christian people in consecrated graveyards was deemed to have enough impact on the fate of their soul that it was purposefully withheld as a punishment from those deemed to have lived in sin.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

My character was level 4 at the time of death and the party hit 5 immediately after. (I'm not salty at all about the fact that I'd probably have survived if we were level 5 when we fought the werewolf. Not. At. All.)


Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
So, I don't know if it's the odds per se, but unambiguously there are some undead who rise as a result of improper respect shown to their remains. Planar Adventures likewise corroborates that it matters more what the soul's convictions are regarding the appropriate procedures of their afterlife journey than what those procedures are.

Absolutely there are plenty of cases within Pathfinder's written cannon of disrespect of remains being the source of undead creation. And also plenty of cases of "unfinished business", or the conditions of one's death being so awful that it gives rise to undeath as well.

But I guess what I'm saying is, not every case of one of these results in undead. And it's pretty much entirely the demands of the story that results in an undead being created.

For the OP who is interested in whether or not their character might become an (NPC?) undead I would say it depends on what kind of story your GM and the other players want to tell.

Honestly if I was the GM I would say no. Mostly because I wouldn't want anyone thinking that generating undead is guaranteed under any specific condition that isn't mechanically outlined via spell/ritual. And also because it doesn't sound fun for other players. If I was one of the players in the group, and our former companion came back as undead I would be annoyed more than anything.


I'd say it really depends on the group and the story. I ran Tyrant's Grasp for a group, and just so, so many PCs died in that game. A few of them came back as undead to challenge the party later, and everyone loved it because of how on-theme it was, and because they made really memorable bosses.
That worked because we were playing TG, though. If it just happened out of nowhere I could see someone being salty about their character being jerked away post-mortem.

Also, Captain Morgan, if you guys are around level 5 I'd recommend the bog mummy from my list above, maybe with the elite template and one or two spells if your GM is feeling spicy. I think my other suggestions also work but they are level 9-10 on average, and it's possible that the group may have moved on from that PC's death by that point and the revelation of Mama Maggot rising for vengeance would have less impact.

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