Hey Table of Elders (this is how I view you all as I assume the most active people here for PF1E have been here for a long time), I'm looking for advice on a 3pp class to see if it's a viable class or if I should try for something else or a different character idea all together.
Class webpage is right here.
So as a person who has imagined magic being used via tracing runes/glyphs on objects or in the air as just part of the basics of casting any sort of magic, despite the fact the the class doesn't have actual spells and everything is converted to spell-like or supernatural abilities I like the angle that the class is taking.
With this I wanted to make a Dwarf in my buddy's campaign who is studying the magic of yore as well as believing the the history books aren't telling us everything and now wants to travel with a party so he can discover the true history of both magic and the world. My buddy has already said that this kind of magic is a thing in his world and that it would be yore magic that is slightly more difficult to use but is more powerful, but the real issue is understanding it and finding sources of it to learn more magic.
What do the Elder Gods of Pathfinder think about this class, and do you have any reccomendations for the character idea I have?
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It seems like a legit build with a skilled GM who knows how/when to keep your character advancing. Without runes, a level up isn't useful and with too many runes, leveling up becomes less meaningful.
I would compare the class to maybe the Medium class or Vigilante where it can be versatile to the point that it can recreate or recombine other classes.
You should decide if you want the GM to decide which direction the class can go or if you want to be able to pick the runes as you advance. And there is room in between where the plot gives you options to choose from.
But importantly for this kind of game, you should be able to talk with the GM outside the game in advance of him planning sessions so that your idea of the character you want matches the type of game he is planning. It's no fun having the vision of a Cha negative barbarian and be thrown into endless social encounters or be a rogue in a mega-dungeon with zero traps to find.
I have a problem with this class.
Over all: It's TOO powerful. It gives you way too much: D8 HP, Simple and Martial Weapon proficiency, Light and Medium Armor proficiency, the ability to create your own weapons as well as double enchanting them, replacement of used ability bonuses, a ridiculous number of active powers at once; some with no way to be countered... it literally allows you to make a character that can easily overpower any other character in a party or even the enemy.
The class needs a major overhaul to be balanced. Time limits on many powers are a MUST as well as certain restrictions. It needs to be closer to being a spell caster than a melee combatant and some of it's abilities make absolutely no sense; Number of runes known=1/2 your Wisdom score... number of ACTIVE runes=3+Constitution Modifier +20 once you reach level 20. You can LITERALLY make a char with mostly crappy stats, make him a dwarf for the +2 to both Wisdom and Constitution... I'll build an example char here to show you.
Grimbahl Runicheat Level 20 Runecaster
Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 18 changed to 20 by level 8 changed to 26 with belt
Int: 12
Wis: 20 changed to 23 by level 20 changed to 29 with headband changed to 35 with Runic insight and if we really wanted to push it change it to 40 with a tome of wisdom.
Cha: 10
HP: (Taking average here save for level 1) 244
BAB: 15/10/5 (ANY weapon created using Runic Weapon changes this to 20/15/10 then adding your Wisdom mod to it because why not changes it to 35/30/25 the weapon can be enchanted using the War Rune changing it to 40/35/30 and adding a +1 magic ability to the weapon. This combination also gives the weapons damage +20 per hit. If it's a two-handed weapon that's +27 besides the weapons damage)
I'm sorry I can't continue with this I'm so disgusted with it and I haven't even gotten to the saves, armor, feats, or spell choices or even how you can have MULTIPLE of the same rune on but not active just waiting for you to turn them on when the other reaches its "End State". The class is broken.
I'll post again proposing things that could balance the class out into a more... useable and fair state if you want.
After looking this over I have to agree with Archmic. This class is completely unbalanced. I would never allow this in a campaign I run, but if the GM is ok with it go for it. I am not going to bother giving any advice on this because it is something I am not interested in learning about.
This thread will probably get more useful advice in the Third –Party forum instead of the advice forum. Many people reading it here are simply going to say it is overpowered.
I'd been gradually evaluating the class since I saw this topic a few days ago as I went over it with a fine-toothed comb, but the long and short of it is that I agree that the class is extremely powerful. I don't know that I agree that it's necessarily so powerful that it should never see play. There are things you can do with just the CRB (let alone all 1st-party Pathfinder 1e materials) that are arguably stronger than a "fair" build of Runecaster, but those would be considered abusive builds at most tables. An "honest" Runecaster is going to be much stronger than any other 6th-level caster played "honestly" from 1st-party materials. It's still going to have a lower optimization ceiling than things like Exploiter Wizard or Spirit Guide Oracle using ideal spells, but I don't consider those to be the normal standards of balance most tables are aiming for.
The problem is that Runecaster is a modular class where nearly everything is overtuned. Not only are individual options not balanced against the normal scale of power for a class talent gained every other level, but the combinations of many different options need to be taken into account. The power of Runes, again, is all over the place, ranging from barely worth setting up to equivalent to a Hero Point each time they're activated.
Logos is a bizarre feature that starts off looking like it gives you a partial spell progression for utility options, then starts adding in Explosive Runes and Symbol spells with material components measured in the thousands of gold (that the Runecaster doesn't need to spend because they're SLAs) that they can spam repeatedly.
Even things like the class skills give me reason to raise my eyebrows at them. Why does a WIS-based class focused on obscure runic lore gain three out of four of the major social skills and every Knowledge as a class skill? What could the reason possibly be for giving Knowledge (Local) to this class? What points to the idea that they should be good at Diplomacy, Bluff, or even Sense Motive? These are more minor issues than the more serious problems with the class, but they point to how widespread the design issues are.
It's an interesting concept, but the nuts and bolts of what's actually on the table here are very strange. Personally, I'd sooner redesign the entire concept as a brand new class if I wanted to provide something like this for a player at my table than try to make this class work.
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I know I tore it apart in my post, but there are elements of the class that work just fine. I agree that it doesn't feel like a Wisdom based class, but it has the feel of being a Dwarven Exclusive archetype.
Change the runes around a bit and give level restrictions to them, give it a proper spell progression and caster level, possibly even a unique ability or two, and remove most of it's ungodly power and it becomes balanced. It has fine options for allowing a player to do some things that are fun and unique, but nothing to keep it constrained.
Let's see...
Alignment: I don't really see them being chaotic... but honestly shouldn't have a restriction
Race: Dwarf... because it feels right.
Casting ability: Intelligence; you're doing research here not getting divine inspiration.
HP: d6; you're not a cleric you're a weird Dwarven spell caster.
To keep some of the feel, give it medium armor pro but only simple weapon proficiency. Again, we're going for Dwarven feel.
BAB: 1/2 You're a weird wizard Harry.
Saves: Will good, Ref and Fort bad.
Skills: Appraise, Craft, Fly, Heal, Knowledge (Arcane and History), Linguistics, Lore, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points: 2 + int mod
Spell progression up to 6th level spells, require a spell book and give it spell slots up to 4 from class per level like a wizard.
Spells: Give it a unique spell list. Mix and match spells from several different classes.
Rune Casting: complete overhaul. Make it a pool of points equal to 2 or 3+Int Mod. and increase it by maybe 2 points a level. Have it spend those points to make the runes.
Limit the number of runes to location. One per armor set, one on a shield, one on a weapon. One on a person and have it use a spell slot.
Size and visibility: not sure why size is a thing with it but the runes should have to be visible at all times to be used/activate.
End state: get rid of this concept... it just doesn't work.
Dismissing and Dispelling: Dispell magic should work on a rune; even an inert one; like normal for a spell. Erase should work on runes with an opposed caster check. Dismissing... well that thought should just be thrown out.
Runes (Renamed to Runic Mastery) (SP): This should be the uniqueness of the class, and it should be limited. Activating them should be a move action or standard action. Should be be allowed to pick on every 2 to 3 levels.
Accuracy: remove; or have it allow you to ignore all cover bonuses save for total cover for a round or a few rounds as the class levels up.
Air: see Elemental Runes at bottom.
Bear: see Animal based runes at bottom.
Blast: can be placed on a piece of ammunition, adds 1d6 per Rune point used. Limit the number of points to something like 1 point per 2 levels up to 5 points. This gives them some attack bonus. Note: only one piece of ammunition can be modified with this so if you want more you're spending more points.
Bleed: can be placed on any slashing or piercing weapon but not ammunition. Lasts for 1 round per 2 levels, adds 1 point of bleed damage to the weapon.
Blocked Trails: remove
Cougar: see animal based runes at bottom
Earth: Rename it to invulnerability make it work on armor and have it give a bonus to saves or resistances for a few rounds.
Eldritch: remove
Fire: see elemental runes at bottom
Fog: get rid of it.
Hardness: Keep what it does for armor and shield, change duration to 1 round per level.
Healing: place on a person. Allow it to be activated by them as a move action and have it heal like a cure light wounds spell. Have it upgrade with levels to change into cure moderate and serious.
Incompetence: remove
Inspiration: remove
Misfortune: remove
mitigating: remove
Mongoose: see animal based runes at bottom
owl: see animal based runes at bottom
ownership: change it so that it persists for 1 day per caster level or 2 and would probably be the only mark that doesn't have to be visible. Allow the Rune Caster to sense the items location while the mark is activated. Fun little utility thing.
Shielding: allow it to give resistances to elemental damage; 5/10/15; that has to be designated by the activator at time of activation and have it last for 1 round per 4 levels.
War: remove or change so it affects the user, giving them a +X morale bonus to attack rolls for the next round; NOT ROUNDS.
Wolf: See animal based runes at bottom.
Elemental: place on a weapon and give it one of the following properties for 1 round per 2 levels - Flaming, Frost, Corrosive, or shock. Allow it to upgrade at a higher level to include the upgraded versions of these abilities or have it deal a flat damage amount of the elements.
Animal Based Runes: could do the following; gives a small limited bonus to ability scores, or skills, or feats, or something like that for a few rounds or minutes and the abilities should fit the animal. Ex: Wolf could give scent, or owl could improve perception, fish could grant a swim speed or water breathing etc. etc.
Add a few more runes to give it a few more options.
Logos: replaced with proper spell casting
Rune Lore: remove or have it grant read magic, or create scroll, or something to that affect.
Runic Mastery: removed and name taken and given to the "Runes" ability
Runelord: Allows you to double to the number of runes you can have active on yourself. So two runes per area on yourself or allows you to spend X Rune Pool points to increase length of time Runes are active.
There... a few hours work and the class is WELL on it's way to being balanced and mildly unique.
