In a recent game I was in, my summoner conjured a wall of water in order to divide and slow enemies.
I figured they would need to expend a Stride action moving up to the wall, a Swim action to traverse it, and their final action to Stride into melee. Sucking up the entire turn of multiple enemies for a single spell seemed like a pretty good trade.
But then the GM asked me for their Swim check DCs. When we didn't find anything mentioned in the spell description, he used the spell DC for the Swim DC. The enemies then failed attempt after attempt after attempt to traverse the wall. What's more, since they couldn't "sink" from their failures (as they hadn't even entered the wall yet), the GM ruled that they were instead knocked prone by the current.
It proved to be a most formidable barrier! The monsters in question did not seem to have Athletics, nor a swim speed (we were in a dry dungeon at the time combating the undead). The did have ranged piercing attacks though, and started resorting to those after fruitlessly wasting two full rounds on move actions.
How exactly is this spell intended to be run? How might you have run it in your games?
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What you are describing sounds reasonable to me.
The rules are a bit vague. The spell does mention "The rules of aquatic combat apply to creatures traversing the wall of water" - so I guess that means swim checks. The Aquatic Combat rules don't mention much about how to traverse water. Certainly nothing about being allowed to walk along the bottom of the water as difficult terrain (which the PF1 underwater combat rules do have).
There is the option of Combining movement. That would potentially let the creatures move up to the wall, swim through it, then continue their movement as one action instead of three. But that is also explicitly called out as a GM discretion thing. I would also say that the ruling should be consistent for creatures controlled from both sides of the GM screen. If the enemies have to use three actions to go through a wall of water, then so do the player characters. And if the enemies are allowed to combine the movement up to the wall and the swim movement through the wall into one action, then so can the player characters when an enemy caster uses it.
Using the spell DC for the swim check DC to traverse the wall makes perfect sense. I have no other recommendations for what DC to use.
Edit: Though Aqueous Orb does mention a DC 10 Athletics check. But it also mentions an escape DC equal to your spell DC. And the difference between those two is astonishing. I'm not sure how DC 10 is ever expected to be any sort of detriment or challenge to any creature that is regularly expected to face Rank 3 spells.
I agree. The Wall of Water is basically an action sink. If you want to crosss it it is going to take 3 actions. Move, Swim, Move.
The Swim check DC doesn't really matter unless they fail - which will cost them another action. The spell works fine even if the GM just sets it at 10. If it is a moderate DC, then someone trying to pass through keeps wasting an action till they succeed.
If the players set up with the right attacks to take advantage of it, it is a very effective spell.
I hadn't considered walking along the bottom. Is there anything preventing that?
If it were me traversing it, I'd much rather spend a single Stride action with one square of difficult terrain than I would spending three actions.
I ostensibly picked up the spell because my amphibious eidolon can swim through it freely, and can attack with his piercing reach tentacles without penalty, even pulling creatures into the wall.
Not only is it great for dividing enemies, restricting specific attacks, and putting out fires, but since there's nothing indicating it is land bound, it could be used as a "water bridge" to get across a chasm or something similarly creative.
All in all quite versatile for its level.
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I hadn't considered walking along the bottom. Is there anything preventing that?
It is a GM call in the movement rules
I wouldn't do it but over to you.
This is the whole point of a Wall of Water. It takes a spell slots and 3 actions from the caster. It really is just a one round delay tactic. A spell that is unpopular as it is and you want to nerf it? Doesn't really make any sense from a balance point of view.
I hadn't considered walking along the bottom. Is there anything preventing that?
A creature traversing the wall of water needs to Swim through.
Must swim through.
Take a look at Wall of Thorns
Same level and spell slots.
That one is difficult terrain, provides cover and does a small/moderate amount of damage with no save, it is possible but a a pain to destroy.
The Wall of Water can counteract magical fires and causes aquatic combat (-2 circumstance for some attacks, prevents some ranged attacks and all fire).
Looks like you need to swim through the wall of water.
I'd probably let people combine movement to get through the wall, but it still eats an extra action to get through. (Looks like calm water so probably auto crit success) (Spell gets notably stronger if GM doesn't let movement combine, possibly unreasonably so.)
So Wall of Water: good for slowing down people a little, providing a bit of pseudo cover, or total protection from boulders, fire spitting monsters and uhh chakram throwers. Particularly strong if you have swim speed and piercing reach/ranged weapons to avoid being constrained.
Seems similar in power level to the wall of thorns but nicely different.
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I hadn't considered walking along the bottom. Is there anything preventing that?
It is a GM call in the movement rules
I wouldn't do it but over to you.
This is the whole point of a Wall of Water. It takes a spell slots and 3 actions from the caster. It really is just a one round delay tactic. A spell that is unpopular as it is and you want to nerf it? Doesn't really make any sense from a balance point of view.
I think it's a GM call as to if a particular creature would "sink to the bottom" or not.
Relevant section of rules text about walking through water| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, it does specifically state "A creature traversing the wall of water needs to Swim through." That seems pretty unambiguous.
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Or you could do both. Set the swim DC at 10 to match Aqueous Orb and allow combination movement types so that characters can Stride-Swim-Stride through the wall of water.
There. Now the spell does absolutely nothing.
I have some problems with combination movement (I used it sometimes).
I only allow it if the char have the both speeds that it need (in this example the land and swiming speed) and I rule that worse speed as maximum for that combined action.
Yet the Combining Movement rule uses Leap as example with is something that may not harm you normal land movement. If you are trying to combine the movement of something that clearly is slowing down you movement (like a Wall of Water) it will look like a cheese. So I probably won't allow such thing.
The spell specifically says that you need to swim to traverse, so no walking through it.
I think you set the the DC at either 10 or 15. 10 because it is the same as Aqueous Orb, also a level 3 spell, but that seems really low. But Aqueous Orb can be rolled back onto a creature next round, where a wall is stationary.
My preference would be DC 15. Standard trained DC, nothing in spell's text to say that there is a current or anything to increase the difficulty. A level 3 Creatures trained in Athletics have about a +11, so succeed to swim through on a 4 or better. Even untrained creatures can move through on a good roll.
...nothing in spell's text to say that there is a current or anything to increase the difficulty.
It is described as "a wave," however, which implies that the water is not completely motionless. Take that as you will.
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Yeah, I don't abide by any interpretation that says the water is motionless or even remotely calm, in my mind it HAS to be extremely lively in there. I know this is fantasy and all but I cannot fathom the wall actually existing in any way that can be interacted with if there isn't some STRONG flow of water moving from the outer surface inward in a one-directional manner:
(Clouds in the sky for prof pic spacing)
>|W|<
>|W|<
Anything else would either suggest a completely impenetrable force (not the damage type) that holds the water in place or an absolutely insane amount of surface tension that, when broken by something/someone entering it, would cause the entire wall to explosively empty where the tension is broken.
I also agree that the DC for the Swim Check should probably just match the Spell DC of the caster who created it plus or minus any circumstance bonuses/penalties depending on the actual situation and any beneficial or mitigating factors at play at the moment.
