JuliusCromwell |
So I have a question.
Besides their 3x Critical Multiplier what reason other than for character flavor is there to use an Axe type weapon
Is there any feats or class abilities that could Benfit from using an axe or Make it worth it more to use an Axe over a sword type weapon
I ask cause I want to build a Knight like character who is a heavy armored character that Swords and boards with a Axe and shield. I want the biggest Axe i can use one handed speaking both Damage dice size and just typical image of a large axe I know I can fluff stuff to fit my vision so my idea is a large single blade great axe like weapon but able to be used one handed.
Mysterious Stranger |
The difference on a long sword vs battle axe is pretty much a 19-20 x2 critical hit vs a 20 x3 critical hit.
If you are comparing a great sword to a great axe then there is a bit more difference. The damage on the great sword will be more consistent, with most damage being around 7 points. It has a relatively low chance of rolling really high or really low. The great axe on the other hand has equal chance of any number being rolled. This means the damage is all over the place. A great axe has a .00417% of dealing 36 + x3 the damage bonus in damage. A great sword has a .00278% chance of doing 24 +x2 the damage bonus in damage.
Pizza Lord |
Mysterious Stranger got the basics. The crit threat to crit multiplier and the range or consistency of damage.
Other than that, mechanically, you might have hit points and hardness to sunder or damage, since a sword is likely all metal and an axe will likely use the wood of its haft rather than its metal component. After that is GM calls, like how easily something is suitable to use for damage, like using a sword to cut down a tree or door instead of an axe. Or how it's probably easier to find an axe/spear or axe/hammer hybrid than a similar sword analogue for when you don't want to do slashing damage, but you got the basic answers already .
Taja the Barbarian |
Mechanically, most weapons are pretty balanced and it doesn't really matter too much which specific one you pick:
For one-handed weapons, your typical options are:
Martial options:
1d8 dmg, Crit 19-20/x2 (high dmg, high threat, low crit)
1d8 dmg, Crit 20/x3 (high dmg, low threat, high crit)
1d6 dmg, Crit 18-20/x2 (low dmg, very high threat, low crit)
1d6 dmg, Crit 20/x4 (low dmg, low threat, very high crit)
Exotic options:
1d10 dmg, Crit 19-20/x2 (very high dmg, high threat, low crit)
1d10 dmg, Crit 20/x3 (very high dmg, low threat, high crit)
1d8 dmg, Crit 19-20/x3 (high dmg, high threat, high crit)
In the long run, there is little difference between equivalent swords and axes, but personal preferences on crit rates/amounts will come into play.
Generally speaking, the traditional down-side of axes is that you probably aren't going to find as many of them as you will swords in a typical adventure...
Azothath |
there are a couple of things to consider; average weapon damage(which includes the critical), your PC's feat choices, weapon Hrd & HPs, cost, weapon proficencies as some weapons are used as other weapons(see gladius), feats/abilities that span weapons or are specific, damage types, fighter weapon groups, general taste & style (as it is a game).
The easy way to roughly compute average weapon damage is to find the simple average of the damage die then multiply by (20 + #crits)/20. For 19-20 *2 the #crits is 2 for +1@19 & +1@20. For 20 *3 the #crits is 2 for +2@20. So mathwise #crits=(21-lowest crit)*(crit muliplier-1). Actually confirming that crit means 19+ is a bit easier than 20 and that would add slightly to those average weapon damages. The weapon ability Deadly(see katana) is very situational. Past 5th level keen spell and weapon ability amplify that difference so blades nudge a small win over axes.
There are posts and spreadsheets that describe how to calculate it accurately.
PC's feat choices are critical and usually this is tied to a feat chain(series of dependent feats). I could elaborate but 'nuff said.
Weapon hardness and HPs are mainly important below 3rd level where sunder/broken condition can be an issue. Fully metal weapons (heavy blades) clearly win that topic.
Cost is more an issue below 3rd level. It's basic cost effectiveness. Consider an obsidian(glass) dagger {fragile} 0.75lb at 1gp.
Weapon proficiencies are overpriced so it is best to stick with a class's set or try traits, races, multiclassing, or spells to avoid the feat cost. Some weapons are used as another and that is a hidden boon. Sometimes you don't care if you hit as you just want the weapon's attribute like the tonfa's defending ability.
Damage type (B,S,P) and weapon materials really only make a difference situationally but 'more is better' and it is generally a low to mid level issue.
the rest are class build based or optional.
Dragonchess Player |
As stated, the difference between axes and swords is pretty negligible when it comes to average damage. 19-20/x2 and 20/x3 weapons (or 18-20/x2 and 20/x4 weapons for crit-fishing) are statistically the same other than a few corner cases where the attack roll needed to hit is within the critical threat range.
The falcata (1d8 S, 19-20/x3) is the best weapon for average damage (with the tongi [1d6 P, 19-20/x3] being almost as good).
The reason high critical ranges are "more valuable" than high multipliers is because of "riders" on critical hits: namely, the critical feats at higher level play (basically, the ones with Critical Focus as a prerequisite) and magus Spellstrike ("the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier"). For riders, you want critical hits to happen more often because the additional effects are usually more significant than "just extra damage."
Mysterious Stranger |
When looking at the average damage one thing to factor in is how likely is the damage going to be outside this range. The number of dice your roll for damage can have a large impact on this. Rolling multiple smaller dice tend to give you more stable damage, but the chance of rolling extremely high or low is much smaller than if you were using a single die. Take for example the difference between 2d6 and 1d12. The 2d6 is going to result in a range of 5-9 point 66.67% of the time. The 1d12 is going to have a 41.65% chance of it falling into that range. The 2d6 roll has a 16.67% chance of rolling 10 or above compared to the 24.99% of the 1d12. The downside of the 1d12 is that it has a 33.32% chance or rolling less than 5, while the 2d6 has a 16.67 or that. The 2d6 has 0% chance of rolling 1 vs the 8.33% chance of the 1d12.
Weapons with a single high damage dice and larger crit multiple have a greater potential for some really high damage shots, but they also have a greater chance of a really low damage roll. Most of these type weapons are usually two handed so are also benefiting from the 1.5 damage from STR and Power Attack. This helps minimize the low rolls and maximize the high ones. This can often lead to overkill, where you do more damage than is needed. The thing to keep in mind is that you are just as likely to get the incredible critical hit on a meaningless minion as you are the Big Bad Boss.
Goldcape |
For more flavor wise a axe would have additional uses in day to day fantasy life such chopping wood and its more likely a random ciziten would
have a use a use a for a axe but its depending on the knights backstory eg if they were a woodsmen before becoming a knight having a axe for survival purposes and emergency combat would be easier than having to lug a heavy sword around with them.
JuliusCromwell |
Ok basically its mostly the Crit on 20 X3 vs Crit on 19 or above with x2 Damage
Along with Damage Dice
Also the whole material the weapon is made out of
Ok Another Question Any Good weapon abilities beside just strait +s to it.
I can't imagine anything that would Trigger on critical but is there just some Genericly good weapon Abilties
Also the best I can Describe is I want a large looking Exuctioner Axe that can be Wield in one hand or in both
I use the Term large more as a description of fluff and flavor that the actual weapon being large size.
Like aa much as I want to Sword & Board I might go just a Great Axe
Azothath |
weapons by avg dmg, prfc wpn-sz, etc (descending)
•butchering axe, extc 2hnd, Str 19+ else -2 Atk.
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•dwrv giant stckr, extc 2hnd, brace reach.
•dwrv longhmmr, extc 2hnd, reach.
•earthbrkr, mrtl 2hnd.
•grtswrd, mrtl 2hnd.
•orc hornbow, extc 2hnd.
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•split-bld sword, extc 1hnd, disarm trip, holy symbol, Dex 15+ else -2 Atk.
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•dwrv long axe, extc 2hnd, reach.
•flying blade, extc 2hnd, pfrm, reach.
•gastraphetes, mrtl rngd.
•grtaxe, mrtl 2hnd.
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•lucrn hmmr, mrtl 2hnd, brace reach, +2 CMB to sunder med & hvy armr.
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•elvn curve bld, extc 2hnd, +2 CMD vs sunder, wpn fnss.
•fauchard, extc 2hnd, reach trip.
•nodachi, mrtl 2hnd, brace.
•tetsubo, extc 2hnd.
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bulk of good weapons and some 1hnd: bardiche, bstrdswd, bec de corbin, brknback seax, hvy crssbw, hvy rprt crssbw, dwrv dbl waraxe, dwrv sphinx hmmr, dwrv war axe, flambard, glaive, glaive-guis, gnom ripsaw glaive, grt tebutje.
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just pick (top down) for a proficiency(prfc) you have and then a 1hnd or lgt wpn and then a ranged(rngd) wpn.
At first level you only need a cheap weapon(melee or rngd), 2 obsidian daggers. Notable no cost weapons are wood club, wood quarterstaff, leather/cord sling, wood stake.
Mysterious Stranger |
If the character is a dwarf then the dwarven waraxe is would be a good axe for sword and board. I don’t think it would be worth spending a feat for a non-dwarf character.
If you want a big two-handed axe the butchering axe does 3d6 damage and has a x3 crit multiple. While the chances of rolling max damage are even smaller than a great axe the extra dice does boost the average considerably. You will be rolling between 8-13 points of damage about 67.58% of the time. You have about an 83.79% chance of rolling 8 or above and a 50% chance of rolling 11 or more. Your chance of rolling either 14 or more is about 16.17%, which is the same chance as rolling 7 or less. This is an exotic weapon so will require a feat. Your chance of rolling a critical hit and max damage is only .0023% so is likely to never happen, but your chance of rolling a critical hit and doing 8 or more points of damage before the multiplier is about 4.12%.
Raudabjorn Kjallaksson |
If the character is a dwarf then the dwarven waraxe is would be a good axe for sword and board. I don’t think it would be worth spending a feat for a non-dwarf character.
It's basically the axe equivalent of the bastard sword (and even does the same base damage, 1d10). A dwarf wielding one of those as a martial weapon and a human spending their bonus feat on Exotic Melee Weapon come out roughly equal, really.
Taja the Barbarian |
General 'Big Axe' Options for Medium size characters:
Two-Handed:
Butchering Axe [Exotic, Str Requirement] 3d6 dmg, Crit 20/x3 (base damage king)
Orc Double Axe [Exotic, Double] 1d8/1d8 dmg, Crit 20/x3 (double weapons are kinda silly and generally not very good)
Greataxe [Martial] 1d12 dmg, Crit 20/x3 (standard issue for barbarians)
Bardiche [Martial, Reach] 1d10 dmg, Crit 19-20/x2 (Poleaxe with the advantage of Reach)
Dwarven Waraxe [Martial] 1d10 dmg, Crit 20/x3 (kinda meh as a martial weapon)
One-Handed (which can be wield two-handed):
Dwarven Waraxe [Exotic] 1d10 dmg, Crit 20/x3 (one of the base damage kings for one-handed weapons)
Battleaxe [Martial] 1d8 dmg, Crit 20/x3 (standard equipment)
Tongi [Exotic] 1d6 dmg, Crit 19-20/x3 (low damage but unusually good crit stats)
I'm not going to bother going into light axes and axe gauntlet options, as they don't seem to fit the OP's vision...
Mark Hoover 330 |
One very minor thing to point out, and it's kind of negligible, is that if you're a heavily armored melee type you likely start with some kind of martial weapon proficiency. If in that case you want to sword and board with an axe instead, the battle axe costs 5 GP less than the longsword, but it weighs 2lbs more. IDK if folks even really use starting gold anymore when building PCs, but there you go.
Zehnpai |
Feat wise there isn't much that is axe-exclusive.
For some 'okay that was cool' flavor you could have your knight carry a few throwing axes. Then take the sliding axe throw feat. Allows you to ignore shield AC (at a -2 ranged penalty) and if your target is fleeing or flat footed, you get a free trip attempt.
Not practical by any means, but who builds only practical characters? xD
Mightypion |
Bardiches are great weapons, Orc butchering axe is potent too.
Not so much because it is an extra D6, but because enlarge person and lead blades, both are level 1 things, can get it to 6d6.
If you have weapon groups as a feature, axes have a reach weapon, several good one handed and two handed no reach option, and a good throwing options, as well as light sidearms. Heavy blades/Light blades dont quite match that.
Dragonchess Player |
Two other things to keep in mind with average damage and criticals:
1) The keen weapon ability or the Improved Critical feat are pretty much expected from about 7th or 8th character level to keep pace with expected damage output (unless the character has a source of additional damage not multiplied on a critical, such as Sneak Attack);
2) Aggregate bonuses to damage (from Str, enhancement, morale [Inspire Courage bardic performance], etc.) become more important than the base weapon damage dice at higher levels.
Belafon |
Ok Another Question Any Good weapon abilities beside just strait +s to it.
I can't imagine anything that would Trigger on critical but is there just some Genericly good weapon Abilties
Keen is, of course, quite good if you aren't taking the Improved Critical feat. There are many other good ones, but most of them are at least slightly dependent on your build.
There are actually quite a few weapon qualities that trigger on a critical hit. Everything from the elemental burst abilities (flaming burst, shocking burst, etc.) to exhausting, up to Vorpal. Are any of them worth it? Eh, probably not except in specialized builds.
For the general "which weapon?" question: after 13 years of doing theorycrafting and a ton of actually playing the game I've come to the conclusion that unless you are playing a Vital Strike build (which wants the biggest weapon dice possible) or a build that needs to crit (swashbuckler to regain panache, using critical feats, etc.) you can really divide weapons into two categories. Low damage (20 x2) and good damage (everything else).
Math shows that some weapons do more damage than others. And it is true. But when you are in an actual campaign the difference between a 1d6 (19-20 x2) and 1d8 (20 x3) is minuscule. Because what really matters is "how often does that ever so slightly better weapon end the fight earlier?" The answer is "very rarely." Use the fun weapon.