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The inhaled trait on a spell is only relevant for creatures holding their breath or abilities that trigger off of the inhaled trait (such as a shoony's blunt snout).
The inhaled trait on a spell is only relevant for creatures holding their breath or abilities that trigger off of the inhaled trait (such as a shoony's blunt snout).
If that were true, the inhaled trait would be used all over the place. Monster abilities, many, many more spells, etcetera.
It is not. Instead, things call out "You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to saving throws against inhaled threats, such as inhaled poisons, and if you roll a success on such a saving throw, you get a critical success instead."
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The trait is only used for PC options to create poison clouds.
There are similar alchemical "blow at face" items like Blindpepper Tube that do not use the inhaled trait, and other non-traditional poisons like the Dark Pepper Powder that do use the trait.
The only function of that trait is to pop-in the text to explain how [blank] spawns a 1-min 2x2 cloud that invokes an exposure event when entered.
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It's always great to get more people engaging with this topic, and it would be beneficial to skim the different areas that have already been explored.
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The part you are extrapolating from in the GM core is specific to alchemical items. The entry on that page does not define the trait generally, only provide further information about alchemical poisons. The only place the trait is defined in in the player core.
Specially the text tells us that each poison has one of these traits, then the section tells us how alchemical poisons with those traits operate. But the traits are defined in the player core.
The part you are extrapolating from in the GM core is specific to alchemical items. The entry on that page does not define the trait generally, only provide further information about alchemical poisons. The only place the trait is defined in in the player core.
Specially the text tells us that each poison has one of these traits, then the section tells us how alchemical poisons with those traits operate. But the traits are defined in the player core.
Dude, no they are not.
Ingested is not even in the player core glossary because it never came up in regard to character creation. It's a very narrow book. Meanwhile, Poison Weapon means injury poisons are in, and Breath Control (and leshy familiar) mean inhaled needs some cursory explanation too.
The inhaled trait is too big for the glossary in the GM core, so it points to the full text page where it is defined.
And it's the exact same "Inhaled: An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from it's container..." as on AoN
The GM core page is absolutely is 100% defining the trait. I have no idea how you can honestly claim otherwise, it's shameful.
If the inhaled trait was suddenly redefined to be the little 7 word blurb, literally all those alch items would become non-functional. They all need the text of inhaled to work. If splash was defined "this does splash damage when thrown." instead of explaining degrees of success, the radius, removing STR from throw dmg, ect. It would similarly break that functionality. You know you are spewing nonsense.
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The inhaled trait originates from alch items. It's use is not limited to them. Same as Splash getting reused for guns.
The word "alchemical" does not even appear in the inhaled trait.
Golly gee, it's almost like traits were designed in such a manner as to be reused outside their originating context, like, on purpose or something.
I'm lucky enough to know you are spewing b$@~+#~% with that "the player core is the real one" nonsense due to having access to the books, but damn that BS attempt is rubbing me the wrong way more than usual.
"The entry on that page does not define the trait generally, only provide further information about alchemical poisons. The only place the trait is defined in in the player core."
Such an outright blatant lie, really did not expect that kind of bullsh.t from you.
The GM page with literal trait name followed by a colon and the full trait text is specifically and fully defining the trait. To claim otherwise is on the level of "do not believe your lying eyes."
I have no idea what causes people to get so caught up in "being right" they can loose the plot so thoroughly to actually say something that blatantly dishonest. I can only hope it's some form of self-deception and that you're not intentionally trying to deceive everyone. I don't hold grudges, but I do call it like I see it.
Play the way that is fun for you at your table. Clearly you are very passionate about this, probably because you are struggling to find people who read it the same way you do. I don’t know what your tables are like but I have never played any PF2 game with a GM that shared your reading. Good luck with your gaming.
I have a two Chiurgeon/ Wiz, meaning arcane cantrips. I slotted and used the spell while this thread was ongoing. Neither GM blinked at the idea of the spell creating a 2x2 cloud.
Due to the pushback here, I had expected to at least need to explain that the trait is *not* used to flag inhaled hazards, but only for PC poison clouds, but the cloud mechanic didn't even register to them as abnormal/objectionable.
One noticed the lack of repeat exposure, commented on it, and had the 2 puffed NPC humanoids stay in the cloud, so they 100% read the trait and understood it, the other was VS a boss.
I don't know how much of a local hivemind there is here, nor how much that influences participants of discussion. But I can at least provide those experiences, and try to read the text with a fresh perspective.
TBH, I have my doubts that the actual cloud question of Puff o P has been adjudicated at any table you've played with, given the "player core is the real trait" nonsense.
Removed a couple of posts and cleared flags. If you cannot disagree civilly,then this thread will be locked.
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@Trip.H, it sounds like you have a table then that is fun for you and that you are able to use this spell the way you want. Great!
As for why I arbitrate that the spell only works against 1 target (and have since before the remaster, I just think the remaster makes the trait issue clearer), it is because the spell itself only ever talks about having an effect on the target of the spell, which is stated as 1 creature. I all the alchemical poisons in the game use the word “victim” or “victims” which would include any exposed to the poison. But puff of poison is very particular in its language, so even if the spell did create a cloud (a point I do not agree with you about), then only your target can be affected b the spell because there is no language in the spell suggesting anyone other than the target has been exposed to the poison.
Again, I am not telling you that you are not allowed to play the spell however you like with the tables that agree with your interpretation, but that your reasoning is not convincing to me that there was any intention on the part of the spell’s writer to make it affect more than 1 target.
Dude, this is some great stuff, thank you for posting it.
First and foremost, my prior "the inhaled trait is only used for PC poison cloud-making abilities" has been handily proven false. Monster abilities do use it!
All 4 of these appear to be written as if they are pulling in the full inhaled trait text and modifying / specific overriding it for their abilities. I've pasted in trait text above each ability.
Creature 1
[...]Combustible The first time each round that a pickled punk takes fire damage, its fumes combust, dealing 5 fire damage to all other creatures within the area of its Suffocating Fumes aura.
An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.Suffocating Fumes (aura, inhaled, poison) 5 feet. A creature that enters or begins its turn within the aura must attempt a DC 14 Fortitude save, or DC 17 if the pickled punk is attached to the creature. On a failed save, the creature is sickened 1, and on a critical failure, it's also enfeebled 1 for 1 minute.
This one is interesting in that most of the trait is overwritten by being an automatic aura, nullifying the lingering cloud text.
As the "one exposure" and means of exposure triggers are also in the ability's text, I think this one is a great example of the only mechanic left to the inhaled trait text being the +2 via holding breath._____________________________________________
Creature 12
[...]
An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.Disgorge Bile [two-actions] (acid, inhaled) The xilvirek retches a small pool of debilitating, acrid bile onto itself. All creatures within 30 feet take 4d6 acid damage as they inhale the bile’s noxious fumes (DC 32 basic Fortitude save; on a failure, the creature is sickened 1, or sickened 2 on a critical failure). The xilvirek can’t Disgorge Bile again for 1d4 rounds.
This one has a range override, and I would call as an example of "oops didn't notice the cloud effect" being quite possible. Without anything written to override the creation of a cloud, I think this one does spawn a big ol 30 ft cloud of fumes. With inhaled also adding the "hold breath" mechanic.
There's no real way to imply only half a trait text is supposed to be used. IMO, if this ability was supposed to allow the "hold breath" but not spawn a cloud, then it would just drop the trait and write out the +2 mechanic. There are plenty of gas/cloud abilities that don't use the trait tag. As both mechanics are left to the trait's default, that's how I read this.
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Creature 6
[...]Fulminate [two-actions] (fire) Requirements The Melfesh Monster has created a spore cloud, and the cloud is within range of one of the Melfesh Monster's fire abilities; Effect The Melfesh Monster targets the cloud with one of its abilities with the fire trait. The spore cloud explodes, dealing 4d10 fire damage and 4 persistent fire damage in a 40-foot burst originating from a single square within the cloud (DC 24 basic Reflex).
An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.Spore Cloud [two-actions] (inhaled, poison) Frequency once per minute; Effect The Melfesh Monster conjures a cloud of spores within 60 feet in a 20-foot burst. The cloud lasts 1 minute. Creatures that enter or begin their turn within the cloud must succeed at a DC 21 Fortitude save or take 3d8 poison damage, be sickened 2, and inhale spores that remain in their bodies for 1 minute (on a critical failure, sickened 3 and an additional 4 persistent poison damage).
This looks like another "don't leave it up to the trait, put the text in anyway" example. And another that leaves the +2 hold breath to the trait.
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Creature 10
[...]An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.Black Seed Cloud [two-actions] The counteflora releases a cloud of black seedpods in a 15-foot-radius emanation. Non-counteflora creatures in the area must succeed at a Fortitude save or breathe in the toxic seeds. (Against plants and fungi, the seeds burrow into the creatures’ flesh rather than infiltrate their lungs.)
Counteflora Toxin (contact [for plants and fungi] or inhaled, poison) Saving Throw DC 30 Fortitude (DC 32 for plants and fungi); Maximum Duration 6 rounds; Stage 1 4d6 poison damage and enfeebled 1 (1 round); Stage 2 6d6 poison damage, enfeebled 1, and fascinated (1 round)
This is another example in the "need to read trait to know about the lingering cloud" camp. The monster text keeps talking in terms of clouds, which is heavily associated with lingering in the air, but it never outright states the 1 min hang-time, and if the trait is not used to give the ability that property, it could be missed. I think it is a very strong example of the designers nudging the reader to not forget the lingering cloud via the ability text, similar to how Puff of Poison does.
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I'm having trouble finding other good examples, so many No Breath creatures pinging that inhaled match, but here's at least 1.
It looks like an AP spoiler, so I'm going to remove the name and only post the ability.
Toxic Escape [two-actions] NPC Interacts to draw an inhaled poison, deploys the poison in a smoke cloud that provides concealment in a 5-foot emanation, then Sneaks up to their Speed. They are not exposed to the inhaled poison.
This is a great example of using the trait to keep the ability text very tight while not leaving any mechanics as question marks. Not only does the trait give the 1-min cloud duration, but the ability text also knows that it needs a line to say that the NPC does not suffer an exposure event, while knowing that the trait will provide the mechanic to expose all others to the poison. It could have written a full line saying "all non-NPC foes that enter or start their turn in... blah blah", but this ability trusts the reader to bring in the trait text mechanics, and provides concise specific overwrites.
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As far as the "it is/would be stronger that Electric Arc" idea goes, I'm fine with flatly disputing that.
The point-blank melee range is a huge deal. It means that you can't slot Puff as your "general-use harm cantrip" , you *have* to have another with real range to it, whether that's EA, Needle Darts, ect. I have literally never been in a scenario where I could/did affect more than 2 targets with the cloud-Puff o P. I'm waiting for it, and as a melee Alch it should happen someday, but it's just too rare for all the moving parts to line up. And there's also Caustic Burst that's a 2x2 at range w/ acid typing.
In general, EA's nearly automatic ability to hit 2, electric typing, Reflex targeting, and +1R scaling means that it's also going to do more damage than Puff will even when both are hitting 2.
The +2R +1d8 scaling spells are worse than the +1R +1d4 spells. 2d4 mins at 2 dmg, while 1d8 doesnt have any higher ceiling. It's not just variance, but outright better performance. Not only the dice difference, but +2 scaling also means that at literally half of your levels, those +1R cantrips are doing more damage while the d8 cantrips are a d4 further behind.
Puff does have the persistent dmg rider, which is it's saving grace.
Even if persistent dmg is typically looked upon unfavorably it gives the spell a real "thing" of its own.
If you find yourself looking at the mythical 3 foes in a 2x2, no one would think Caustic Blast is overpowered for being able to hit all 3. I've yet to hear anyone thinking that it's a better spell than Scatter Scree due to that niche, either.
If you have slotted a melee cantrip, and find yourself with that rare 3 foes in 2x2 while at melee range yourself, I think it should not be objectionable for Puff to outperform EA.
To be honest, it should also handily outperform EA with just 2 foes getting exposed to the cloud, and that it's hard for that to ever happen kinda sucks.
No, I don't think the cloud-Puff is at all above the norm. Let's say no EA, but SS, Puff, Caustic B.
Scatter Scree being a 30ft 2-target with terrain is a good side-grade to the melee Puff with a lingering cloud. Even if you only have 1 target to Puff, the potential for another foe to pass through the cloud for a 2nd exposure makes it a real possibility to pick the Fort + poison Puff over SS's Reflex Bludgeon. Note that Puff is still gimped by the range in that side-by-side.
Same idea with CB. If you see the 3, or even a 4 cluster filling the 2x2, and you have both, which do you pick? Would you Stride into melee to make a Puff? That spell has the persistent as baseline, which CB needs a crit fail. Meaning Puff technically can do more dmg. And it's always possible another foe walks through the cloud.
In my view, (cloud) Puff is a great "narrow tool" dmg cantrip. I've been looking for hallways and choke-points to cloud up, trying to maximize the need to walk through it. It's not really a thing that'll happen much. Even though I'm the frontline in one AP to get around the friendly fire issue, between both Puff and my Mustard Powder, the most I can get is either 2 in the initial pop, or 1 at the pop and 1 later pass-through exposure.
And even then, all that is with the blanket of having an EA spellheart on my weapon, and mindfully forcing myself to use the Puff due to character flavor reasons.
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The no-cloud Puff does not out damage EA 99% of the time. Even when at melee Puff range, the save, typing, easy 2-target, means that just about any other dmg cantrip will do more damage than no-cloud Puff unless the persistent ticks for many turns.
A no-cloud Puff is so far below baseline it's not even funny.
There's also the comparison of melee cantrip Gouging Claw which is 1 target only, 2d6 +[ +1R 1d6 ] heightening. And has 1 per +1R persistent dmg. And melee cantrips are the main situation where you *want* an AC targeting roll, due to flanking and greater chances of debuffs in general.
Puff being 1-target only next to GC does not make sense. It's rare enough for cloud-Puff to affect 2 foes (and 0 allies), and in all those situations, GC would have been better to slot.
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Yes, when all the needed stars align for cloud-Puff, it's an outright good cantrip. I think the commonality of that situation happening is being overestimated, and just as importantly:
From a numbers and design standpoint, I think that a no-cloud Puff is obviously FAR below any point of comparison.
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If a reader thinks the spell targeting can happen *before* the spell effect is created, and allows for independent behavior of what's created, like Create Water's water to exceed the spell's listed range, then those are the 2 ingredients I that I put together to think that Puff creates a lingering cloud. And again, that Target entry stops Puffing empty space.
While the inhaled tag is used more widely than I had previously known, it is still used by abilities that create cloud hazards. Not used to signal inhaled defenses, but is always mentioned as an example of such attacks.
It seems that all uses of the inhaled trait leave the +2 "hold breath" mechanic of the trait intact (and the strong wind dissipates rule). And from what I've seen, no-cloud Puff would be the only case in which the hold breath mechanic does not make sense for the ability/spell.
All the others have lingering clouds, perpetual auras, or reasons why a creature would know to hold their breath. No-cloud Puff does not. The moment a creature holds their breath, the cantrip caster is just going to instead cast Needle Darts, EA, ect.
**Every other inhaled example allows for reactive, assured play to Hold Breath and then cross into the effect. The "Hold Breath and hope you get hit" idea does not match.**
Which brings us back around to quote Puff of Poison one last time.
Puff of Poison - - - - Cantrip 1
Cantrip Evocation Inhaled Poison
Source Secrets of Magic pg. 124 1.1
Traditions arcane, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 5 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving Throw FortitudeAn inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.You exhale a shimmering cloud of toxic breath at an enemy's face. The target takes poison damage equal to your spellcasting modifier and 2 persistent poison damage, depending on its Fortitude save.
Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The target takes half initial and persistent damage.
Failure The target takes full initial and persistent damage.
Critical Failure The target takes double initial and persistent damage.Heightened (+2) The initial poison damage increases by 1d8 and the persistent poison damage increases by 1.
As far as the wordage of inhaled poison items goes, it's pretty consistent but contextual.
"victim" seems exclusively used by the items to talk about someone suffering from a failed affliction save.
Meanwhile "target" is used any time it's in reference to the mechanism of deploying/creating the cloud before it happens.
"user" is for drugs
"Creatures" is used more generically, and also used to bridge the gap; talking about the item's potential effects, but not explicitly those that are suffering from a fail.
Heck, even here it looks like a +1 to the idea of Target 1 being completely compatible with creating a cloud, lol.
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Re-reading Addlebrain did offer this quotable line though.
"Once soaked in special reagents and then dried, a dose of addlebrain must be either lit with flame or tossed into a fire to activate, whereupon it unleashes a cloud of toxin as normal for an inhaled poison."
Doesn't say alchemical inhaled poison, just inhaled poison. Yes, 100% the default behavior of inhaled is supposed to be making a cloud. If you think Target 1 deletes it, I point again to Dark Pepper Powder, Sneezing Powder, and Blindpepper Tube items. 2 have inhaled, all talk about targeting a creature. Side-by-side, it's clear that the trait is there to make clouds first. If any of those items did not create clouds, they would not have the trait, as they lack typical staged afflictions. The monster abilities, most but not all of which also lack staged afflictions, only further supports that idea.
If you think the Target 1 entry really does completely delete the cloud-spawning, that's your prerogative.
If Puff of poison targeting only one creature makes no sense, why does the spell itself list 1 target, and then all of the effect text specify what happens only to that target, not creatures exposed to the poison?
I have no intention of arguing against a reading of Puff of Poison that says it is a very niche spell, not one designed to be a workhorse cantrip of any character. I think poison has generally been relegated to "this is difficult to use to greater effect than most other options," deliberately in PF2's game design. "Secretly poison our enemies and wait for them to die" is just not heroic enough of a strategy to justify making it easy or tactically optimal in most situations. GMs that want to adjust that expectation easily can, and that is great, but I think it makes sense to keep those options under-par, rather than near the top.
As far as "how good is puff of poison vs Caustic blast," I think that is a really good comparison. While persistent damage is often discussed as less valuable damage in character optimization discussions, narratively, it can be really powerful. Many creatures who would not want to die, would start acting very differently in an encounter as soon as they have a medical condition that could kill them, even if they "win" the encounter. That is really something up to GMs and players to talk about at the table and for the GM to arbitrate based upon the kind of game they want to run.
But, a cantrip that does persistent damage even on a successful save is a pretty big deal. Caustic blast only does any persistent damage on a critical failure, and that damage is very low. A level 1 creature taking 4 persistent damage every round is in big trouble. A critical failure against caustic blast is only taking 1, and the only way caustic blast does that persistent damage is with a really bad roll. A creature has to roll really, really well not to be taking persistent damage against puff of poison, and that alone is a very big niche, even when it only targets 1 creature.
So the body text of the spell specifying that only the target is making the save (the only way to be effected by the spell) makes sense to me, because this is much more of a mean, assassin cantrip than a battlefield control option. And to make it clear why this cantrip would be over powered affecting every creature in a 5ft burst and having the cloud last for a minute, flip the scrip and imagine running into 4 level 0 creatures in a fairly tight dungeon at level one who all have this cantrip. even if they all only cast it once, the odds of killing a PC, or even wiping a party are much, much higher than any other cantrip you could give them. Even if you look through all level 1 and level 2 alchemical items, you wont find anything giving out persistent damage on 3/4ths of results against multiple enemies, much less staying in an area for a whole minute.
The inhaled items that speak of the target before the cloud exists work the same way with language like "the target must make a DC ___ save or ____" with 0 text mention of spawning a cloud, and just depend on the trait to do it.
That's why I keep saying to pop in the text, then read the ability/item/spell to see what is overwritten.
That Toxic Escape ability is a great example of why you need the cloud default and the benefit of that style.
You keep saying Puff's language is inconsistent when it is not.
To let Pepper Powder rest a bit, here's the inhaled alch item Sneezing Powder: "You can toss sneezing powder at an adjacent creature as an Interact action. The target must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid sneezing. On a failed save, the creature sneezes uncontrollably, becoming slowed 1 for 1 round. On a critical failure, the creature is instead slowed 1 for 3 rounds"
Still has the inhaled trait, and still unleashes a lingering cloud.
Spells like Create Water use magic to instantaneously create something out of magic, but the the thing created is not defined nor limited by the spell parameters.
There's that entire blurb in Spell Duration about just that mechanic.
I really don't know why it's so hard for you to separate the targeting behavior that limits the initial cast of the spell from the mechanical parameters of the created thing.
Why does Puff have a Range: 5 ft instead of range: touch?
Is it perhaps because the spell is not attacking a target directly, but conjures a cloud upon a target that can affect multiple foes?
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(edit: this is GC in the remaster)
Gouging Claw should be your point of comparison for the melee cantrip if you insist on Puff being no-cloud. GC does far more dmg w/ better scaling, and it does persistent bleeding on reg hits as well.
2d6 slash + 2 bleed, H: +1d6 & +1 bleed per +1 spell R. That is what a 1-target, melee cantrip is set to.
There is no way a melee, 1 target only spell was given the low damage and low scaling of AoE ranged cantrips like Caustic Burst when Gouging Claw is right there. 1 target-only ranged spells use Frostbite as baseline for their numbers, and once again that 60ft ranged cantrip starts higher and scales better.
And on top of even that, persistent damage is an automatic damage limiter. Persistent damage does not stack, and is easy to "waste" if one repeats the same action.
Not only is poison the worst damage type from an immunity/resistance standpoint, but Treat Poison is right there in every Healer's Kit, and is pre-defined as 1 Action.
While it's written in a way to help vs afflictions, some GMs might outright use the +2 /+4 to benefit the recovery check. If not, it's the perfect example of "something that would reasonably improve your chances" if not outright "particularly appropriate help" for Assisted Recovery from persistent poison damage.
Cloud-yes Puff is not a scary PC killer, and substituting literally any other attack cantrip, like GC or EA, would be far more threatening. Seriously, I would loath bumping into some PL -1 group of foes that just Step out of melee to spam EA, and would laugh at foes running into us to Puff. What other spell comes with a free 1 Action trade for a +2 save baked in? What other type of save is given away as free rider inside items/abilities? Every Elixir of Life has +saves VS poison in there, lol.
And if you are giving NPCs Alch items to kill players with, then the scary thing is to give them all a single Acid Flask for xd6 persistent acid, Thunderstones to deafen spellcasters, Skunk Bombs to AoE sicken. Sicken in particular is far scarier than most give it credit for, as it prevents the consumption of items orally during combat. No healing potions.
Like, again I don't like seeing such absurd statements being presented like that. Inhaled clouds are not scary to PCs, they only can trigger an exposure once p target.
They are immobile 2x2 clouds, that are polite enough to have their own +2 to save built in if you really need it, lol.
Worst case in your NPC Puff spam scenario, that Monk who insisted on not bringing a bow might relent and pack a ranged option.
You know what actually can be a scary persistent damage type and PC killer? Bleeding, like from Gouging Claw.
Bleed needs 2 actions to help with via Stop Bleeding, and is explicitly written to only give another flat check without changing the recovery DC. Perhaps unintentionally, but that well-defined action sets the bar for what would provide more mechanically effective recovery assistance *very* high.
Well, I would never read black pepper powder as affecting more than one creature either, because the text of the item itself is clear in talking about only affecting the targeted creature. Inhaled poisons that affect every creature that enters the cloud created by them are clear in stating that they effect the victims of the poison. The same language is present in sneezing powder, which is why it would only effect the initial target as well.
Treat poison is worthless for stopping ongoing poison damage because you are not making saving throws, as a GM I would probably allow someone to use it as an assist action to make the flat check easier, but most other forms of persistent damage have 1 action assist options as well. It is really only bleeding that doesn't, and doing persistent damage on a success is still only around a 50% chance of landing. Doing persistent damage on a successful save moves the needle to usually around 90%.
If puff of poison created a 5ft burst that effected every creature that entered the cloud and did persistent damage on a success, and stuck around for 1 minute, than any creature that hits 0 hit points in one of those clouds is likely dead and anyone trying to move into assist or heal them is in grave danger as well. It is a cantrip so the creatures can just keep spamming it until probably everyone is taking 2 or 4 points of damage every round, especially as any creature entering the cloud has to make a save regardless of whether they have made a save against this ability or not. The rules about overlapping clouds are confusing enough that it seems like if every enemy targeted just one PC with the cloud, than any creature moving in to try to save them is going to have to make 4 saves and be subject to taking the initial damage as well as the persistent damage. There is no other cantrip that does anything like create an area of effect that does initial damage and persistent damage and lasts a whole minute without needing to be sustained. Again, against PCs this is far too lethal to make sense to me to allow, which is why I wouldn't let a player use it this way either.
It is perfectly fine for you to not like my reading, but there is nowhere in the rules that says the text of a trait overrides the text of an ability, item or spell.
Sneezing/Pepper powder do not create clouds, either. They're not poisons, and the inhaled trait only speaks about inhaled poisons. The trait changes nothing about how these items are said to work in their descriptions, except that it enables abilities that work off the trait to grant their bonuses/penalties/immunities against them.
Traits are not that narrow. You bring in the full trait text, and then overwrite/modify as is fit for that context. And inhaled is 100% the "make a hazardous cloud" trait, like how splash is the "do some extra AoE dmg" trait.
One of the inhaled monster abilities was an acid, not a poison. That doesn't suddenly nullify the mechanics of the trait. Only the one NPC ability I posted was alchemical either. The word alchemical never appears in the trait text. Despite that, some players here insist it must be an alchemical poison to function because "context."
The Addlebrain item even has the courtesy to define a norm for us: "a dose of addlebrain must be either lit with flame or tossed into a fire to activate, whereupon it unleashes a cloud of toxin as normal for an inhaled poison."
It is absurd to say that Pepper Powder or Sneezing Powder do not get to make clouds because they lack poison damage and the poison tag. The presence of the poison tag would flag the items for immunities, if a trait doesn't specifically say "this requires __ other trait" then it does not require it.
If the intent of Pepper/Sneezing Powder was to not make a cloud, then they would not have the inhaled trait, like how Blindpepper Tube does not have it. It is the use of the inhaled trait tag that labels the item/ability, not the other way around.
This becomes all the more clear when you understand that the inhaled trait is not used to flag immunities/ saves like Auditory or a damage type like Poison. Inhaled is a mechanical trait like Splash, Capacity, or Combination.
Yes, the originating context of the trait was the specific creation of alchemical inhaled poisons.
No, that does not mean that the specific trait, when used by the game devs themselves, is supposed to self-destruct and not function when used in a slightly different context. Where ever they put the "makes a poisonous cloud" trait, it needs to be followed as appropriate. If there is a "outside of originating context, traits self-destruct" rule, please cite it.
Every bit of mechanical function of the inhaled trait text is some parameter or rule about the cloud.
When the cloud triggers an exposure. Hold Breath +2 saves against the lingering cloud. The "strong wind dissipates the cloud" rule. If no cloud was intended to exist, then the designers would not have added the trait.
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For all those reading this later, that's the reason I keep replying to the repetition of old objections. The below list is as dense a summary of my findings as I can make, and I would ask that any further objections to the notion of Puff creating a cloud be new. The point is not to "be right" and silence opposition but to provide a complete picture while minimizing noise, to try to catalogue and condense the context/understanding surrounding the question and its dispute to better evaluate it for yourself.
If a reader thinks the Puff cantrip's spellcasting entry of Target 1 creature is intended to overrule and nullify the inhaled trait's could-making mechanic, that is a determination that ends the evaluation.
I came into this undecided when looking over my possible cantrips.
Once I learned that spells that create child effects have 2 different sets of parameters, that was the primary new knowledge to sort out the ambiguity.
For such spells, the casting of the spell is a separate event, and once complete, you need to follow the child effect rules. Puff is absolutely a case where the trait mechanic can hide what that child effect is supposed to do, but that does not delete the trait.
The simplest spell to learn that system/rule is Create Water. The spell has its parameters for casting. Once the spell has been cast, the water functions like normal mundane water except as the spell text specifically overrides the rules for mundane water. The parameters/rules of the spell casting are irrelevant to the rules governing the water's behavior.
This is intuitive because Create Water has an entry of Range: 0ft.
Like Puff, putting that limit on the created water would leave the spell crippled but technically functional. The water would still be usable and exist so long as the spellcaster held onto its container. If they ever put it down, it would vanish.
Even without reading that Spell Duration blurb that explains such spellcasting / creation separation, in Create Water's case it is intuitive that the restrictions placed up the casting of the spell (can't create water at a remote location) do not limit the nature of the water by default. The spell text would need to specifically state that the water vanishes if it ever leaves the caster's person.
To me, that rule/mechanic seems to be the missing link. Without understanding that rule, it is following existing logic to dismiss any counterpoint for the yes-cloud idea.
Here's an off to top of my head list of no-cloud vs yes-cloud. Numbers are there to link mirrored for/against takes.
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- No Cloud:
- 1 Spell's entry of Target: 1 Creature. The inhaled trait would make a cloud, but this is intended to nullify the inhaled trait's cloud-making.
- 2 melee 2x2 w/ chance of delayed exposure is too overpowered for a melee cantrip with ranged AoE cantrip dmg & scaling.
- 3 If the inhaled tagged entry is not an alchemical poison, its use of the trait does not make a cloud / is wholly nullified. (here for completeness, but this is outright in defiance of the rules)
- 4 The author made a mistake and did not mean to add the inhaled trait. And it has not been changed in errata. (here for completeness)
- 5 Remastered Player Core's 7 word blurb on inhaled replaces and overrules the full trait text found within the Remastered GM core. (here for completeness, but nonsense that would break every item/ability/entry that uses this trait. Talk about scorched earth, entire mechanic is deleted, therefore Puff no-cloud.)
- 6 It doesn't make physical contact, & was intended to not key off Reach, so it doesn't use Range: touch.
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- Yes Cloud:
- 1 Spell's entry of Target: 1 Creature. It is a restriction on spellcasting, likely for the sake of balance/shenanigans. This prevents puffing cloud into empty space. It is independent of and not intending to delete the spawned cloud.
- 2 Puff's low damage and [heighten: (+2) +1d8 +1] is inappropriate and unprecedented for a melee 1-exposure-only cantrip. It matches ranged, AoE cantrips.
- 3 Traits are reused outside of their originating context.
- 4 Puff creator added Inhaled trait to use the trait's mechanics. Other poison cloud spells lack it.
- 5 The GM core defines the trait in whole. The Player Core is a narrow book that discusses traits & mechanics only as they are needed for PC creation. Many traits are abbreviated. Ingested trait is completely missing, ect.
- 6 It lacks Range: touch, which would flag a potential conflict with "spawning a child effect". Range 5ft w/o aura/emanation is only used by Puff, Healing Plaster, and Remake. All spells that are about the creation/manipulation of child effects/stuff.
- * Spell Duration text discussing instantaneous spells creating independent, non magical effects that linger.
- * Puff spell text = "You exhale a shimmering cloud of toxic breath at an enemy's face." keying into both spellcasting restriction and trait's cloud-creation in a limited wordcount. Does not have specific overrides, such as: "no lingering cloud forms," ect.
- * (not only alch items) Monster abilities with inhaled trait clearly rely on the trait text to create a cloud, and use their text to edit the default cloud.
- * "whereupon it unleashes a cloud of toxin as normal for an inhaled poison" from Addlebrain. The purpose of using said trait is 100% making clouds. Puff would be only instance of using trait without making a cloud.
I'll try to keep this list as complete/up to date as possible if the topic continues.
If I have left out any points please call me out on that.
A)You forgot to bold the part that says that the cloud is at the enemy's face, not a huge 10x10 area, but just his face. Limiting specifically area of effect compared to general area.
Think of it like throwing a bomb. You throw it at a Target: 1 Creature, but it explodes over an area. There's even Smoke Bomb that makes a 2x2 of smoke after the single target throw. This is what I mean about separating the act and restrictions of the spellcasting from the subsequent created effects. A theoretical Spell with
Target: 5ft Burst
Duration: 1 minute
Range: 5ft
Would function wildly differently than Puff as written. It would allow for puffing empty space, and it would force the spellcaster to not move. As soon as they moved more than 5ft from the cloud, it would vanish. In that version, the spawned cloud is active magic still tied to the casting, not an independent thing created by the spell as in Create Water.
B) you forgot to put into that the whole premise is if we use the Method of Exposure (NOT Trait)for general Inhaled poisons (open a vial). Despite the fact that we have a completely different Method of Exposure (casting a spell)
There *are* traits that self-limit with catch-clauses like "a weapon with this trait ___ ___ . A Spell with this trait ___ __"
Inhaled is *not* one of those traits. Puff being a spell is not what defines the exposure method, the inhaled trait does.
Saying that Puff being a spell deletes the trait's exposure method is backwards. The inhaled trait is added to the spell precisely for the purpose of altering the exposure method to that of the trait.
C)Your interpetation only works if you selectively exlude words out of the General Method of Exposure to follow your narrative.
It's a trait, we use the trait text. Splash is both a damage type and a trait. When something deals splash damage, you don't invoke the trait if it is not there. Inhaled as a word is used generally, yes, but "the inhaled trait" copy/pastes that text into whatever was labeled with that tag.
And again, by adding the trait to the spell, the devs mutated the Puff spell into one that uses the inhaled trait to handle exposures to the poison.Yes, the inhaled trait text "An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container." does not perfectly match exhaling a puff. That's not a dev message to nullify the trait mechanic that the dev chose to add. If it was, none of the monster abilities with the trait would function either.
Method of Exposure:
Each alchemical poison has one of the following traits, which defines how a creature can be exposed to that poison.
That's the entire text of Method of Exposure, after that it's defining traits.
This does not claim that only alch poisons may use the trait. And if that was true, then the devs would not use the trait elsewhere!
The inhaled trait does not even have any mandate for a matching poison affliction, only providing rules for triggering exposures.
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As far as I understand what you're saying:
A is point 1, and redundant
B is the "originating context" argument, also redundant with #3
C is just wrong / I have no idea what you are talking about. Traits do not pull in pages of surrounding context. If a trait is meant to be restricted or context sensitive, it will say that directly, even at the cost of being wordy, like the Gnome trait.
The "Your interpetation only works if you selectively exlude words out of the General Method of Exposure to follow your narrative." accusation falls flat when I can quote the single sentence in full (that "Each alchemical poison has one of the following traits, which defines how a creature can be exposed to that poison." line.).
I honestly think you may be thinking/trying to point to something else, because the attempt at framing be for deception is just ludicrously incompetent otherwise. There's nothing in here that forbids the inhaled trait from being used in other places, it only instructs that all alch poisons use 1 of those 3 following types of exposure mechanics.
This is also how Pepper Powder can make clouds w/o the poison tag. "All alch poisons will be __" is NOT saying that "only alch poisons may be these three types")
shroudb I do need to ask if you accept or reject the Create Water example for the Spell Duration's lasting child effects thing. Do you think the water is allowed to exit the spell range? And otherwise functions as mundane water, except the evaporation rule specified in the spell text?
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No, it's not the "make a hazardous cloud" trait. It's the "make a hazardous cloud if you're also a poison" trait, as it does not speak about the mechanical properties of anything that's not a poison.
I will agree that my phrasing can be improved, and will now try to say "the inhaled trait is a set of mechanics to trigger exposure via cloud trait" The only way to use the trait and not have the cloud is to specifically overwrite the trait's cloud.
However,
Traits that self-limit have unambiguous language, such as "A creature with this trait is a member of the gnome ancestry." "An ability with this trait can be used or selected only by gnomes."
Inhaled's "An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container." is not at all incompatible with "puff a cloud at the target's face"
The existence of alch inhaled not-poison items like Dark Pepper Powder proves this point for me because:
because it also has the passive component of being something that other rules elements interact with, such as giving a bonus to saves against inhaled threats both poison and non-poison
is still under the incorrect assumption that inhaled is a flag for breathing hazards/ immunities. There are plenty of spells, items, and effects that trigger Breath Control, ect, and do not get flagged with the trait.
That is 100% not what the trait is used for. Inhaled is used when one wants to bring in pre-written mechanics for exposure events, most commonly for a staged poison affliction.
If Pepper Powder never makes a cloud, "a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round." is impossible. Without a cloud, literally 0 of the imposed mechanics of the trait function. The description of throwing powder is enough to trigger Breath Control et all, that's not the job of the trait. That +2 clause is written so that the cloud is a requirement before you can Hold Breath against it. This sort of reply is the kind that adds to frustration, as someone properly reading the trait should already know that.
Pepper Powder, the monster abilities, ect, all set precedent for the inhaled trait to be used more broadly for a set of rules to provides mechanics for airborne hazard exposure.
As written, entries w/ the inhaled trait literally only can cause harm via the cloud, that is the mechanism of exposure. To claim that Pepper Powder doesn't make a cloud is straight up "nuh-uh!" against what the book is telling you to do. When you throw the Pepper, you throw it *at* a creature. It never even says it hits them, because it doesn't. It makes a cloud.
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updated / tweaked point v point list:
- No Cloud:
- 1 Spell's entry of Target: 1 Creature. The inhaled trait would make a cloud, but this target entry is intended to nullify the inhaled trait's cloud-making.
- 2 melee 2x2 w/ chance of delayed exposure is too numerically powerful to be intended for a melee cantrip with ranged AoE cantrip dmg & scaling.
- 3 If the inhaled tagged entry is not an alchemical poison, its use of the trait does not make a cloud / is wholly nullified. (here for completeness, but this is outright in defiance of the rules)
Alt: only alch poisons are allowed to use the trait (then how could the devs use it? lol) - 4 The author made a mistake and did not mean to add the inhaled trait. And it has not been changed in errata. (here for completeness)
- 5 Remastered Player Core's 7 word blurb on inhaled replaces and overrules the full trait text found within the Remastered GM core. (here for completeness, but nonsense that would break every item/ability/entry that uses this trait. Talk about scorched earth, entire mechanic is deleted, therefore Puff no-cloud.)
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- Yes Cloud:
- 1 Spell's entry of Target: 1 Creature. It is a restriction on spellcasting, likely for the sake of balance/shenanigans. This prevents puffing cloud into empty space. It is independent of and not intending to delete the spawned cloud.
- 2 Puff's low damage and [heighten: (+2) +1d8 +1] is inappropriate and unprecedented for a melee 1-exposure-only cantrip. It matches ranged, AoE cantrips.
- 3 Traits are reused outside of their originating context. Inhaled is a mechanical trait like Splash or Capacity, its use carries both the text of its function and intent to invoke it.
- 4 Puff creator added Inhaled trait to use the trait's mechanics. Other poison cloud spells lack it.
- 5 The GM core defines the trait in whole. The Player Core is a narrow book that discusses traits & mechanics only as they are needed for PC creation. Many traits are abbreviated. Ingested trait is completely missing, ect.
- * Spell Duration text discussing instantaneous spells creating independent, non magical effects that linger.
- * Puff spell text = "You exhale a shimmering cloud of toxic breath at an enemy's face." keying into both spellcasting restriction and trait's cloud-creation in a limited wordcount. Does not have specific overrides, such as: "no lingering cloud forms," ect.
- * (not only alch items) Monster abilities with inhaled trait clearly rely on the trait text to create a cloud, and use their text to edit the default cloud.
- * "whereupon it unleashes a cloud of toxin as normal for an inhaled poison" from Addlebrain. The purpose of using said trait is 100% making clouds. Puff would be only instance of using trait without making a cloud.
Hazards/harms with olfactory trait. Some others: Cloudkill, Flammable Fumes, Noxious Vapors, Stinking Cloud, Poisonous Atmosphere, Puff Dragon, ect, ect