So, the Puff of Poison cantrip:
Puff of Poison - - - Cantrip 1
{Cantrip} {Evocation} {Inhaled} {Poison}
Traditions arcane, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 5 feet; Targets 1 creatureSaving Throw Fortitude
You exhale a shimmering cloud of toxic breath at an enemy's face. The target takes poison damage equal to your spellcasting modifier and 2 persistent poison damage, depending on its Fortitude save.Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The target takes half initial and persistent damage.
Failure The target takes full initial and persistent damage.
Critical Failure The target takes double initial and persistent damage.Heightened (+2) The initial poison damage increases by 1d8 and the persistent poison damage increases by 1.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=977
.
For some bizarre, unknowable reason the cantrip has the {inhaled} trait. Literally the single non-poison thing to have the trait.
An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.
Even if we ignore that the trait seems to self-exclude itself to items, the mechanical functionality of this trait creates an impossibility with how the spell seems to work.
.
The spell has Targets 1, and does not seem to involve affecting squares at all. There is no delay to the spell. There is no duration entry.
With no delay to the spell, there is no means by which even the spend Action --> +2 mechanic of the inhaled trait could ever function.
Unless.
.
If the inhaled trait was supposed to affect the poison puff in some way, such as create a cloud hazard that lingered for 1 minute, then the inclusion of the trait would make sense.
Is it supposed to? "Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud." The otherwise awkward entries of a range of 5ft and Target 1 could be proofing the spell to function with Reach and other metamagic.
Is this intended to create a lingering cloud upon the spell's target as per the trait?
I must say, that even though I have had this spell slotted into one of my Chirugeons for thematic reasons, I literally never cast it once, so adjudicating the spell has never happened.
Honestly, considering how restrictive the spell is, and how bad both poison damage and Fort saves are, and that persistent damage does not stack, a lingering cloud seems like it might have been intended, and would place the cantrip closer to par balance-wise.
Thoughts?
For some bizarre, unknowable reason the cantrip has the {inhaled} trait. Literally the single non-poison thing to have the trait.
I think you mean it is the only non-item thing to have the Inhaled trait.
Puff of Poison does have the Poison trait, so it is not a non-poison thing.
Anyway...
I would go with specific overrides general. The general rules for the Inhaled trait mention being an area when released from a container. Puff of Poison specifies how it targets things. So the only thing that is not overridden from the trait (other than the spell simply having the trait in case something is immune to the Inhaled trait) is that a creature can use an action to hold its breath and get a bonus to its save. That still applies to Puff of Poison.
So for intelligent, but not very wise, enemies - threatening to use Puff of Poison could have a nice Slowed 1 effect...
Ugh, yeah "non-poison" was supposed to be "non alchemical poison", unforced error there.
.
I don't see how predicting the use, or even the reuse, of a cantrip would validate the use of that trait if its only function was to even further nerf P o P.
.
I am also not sure if/how specific overrides general would be pointed to in this case. Neither the spell's target nor range entry conflict with the inhaled trait's cloud, they just dictate where it may appear.
The one sentence of flavor within the spell is "You exhale a shimmering cloud of toxic breath at an enemy's face."
Not only does this explicitly talk about generating a cloud, but also points to that targeting language, which could be potentially 35 ft away via Reach Spell.
The specific overrides general argument comes from how the Inhaled trait states that the poison is:
* released from a container
* fills a 10 foot cube area
* remains in that area for a minute
* affects all creatures that start in, or enter that area
And that the Inhaled trait is a general rule that applies to many different items and this particular spell.
The rule text for the spell, though is specific to the spell and includes things like:
* Range: 5 feet
* Target: 1 creature
* Duration: instant (since it doesn't have a duration entry)
Because that is how spells are defined. So yes, the target, range, and duration entries of the spell do very much conflict with the 10 foot cube area, multiple creatures affected, and 1 minute duration of the Inhaled trait.
None of the alch items with the inhaled trait specify the cloud's duration nor spawn placement any more than this spell does, so it is still odd to me / not convincing that a *lack* of duration entry is intended to override the instructions of the inhaled trait.
You have items like Dark Pepper Powder:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2560
that say "You can toss a handful of dark pepper at an adjacent creature as an Interact action. The target must attempt a DC 16 Fortitude save to avoid coughing to the point of choking."
but the item lacks a poison trait or a listed affliction, only presenting a 1 round on failed save effect. It's not an alchemical poison, yet it uses the inhaled trait. Even though it lacks a duration (or target entry), I must presume this item still spawns a 10ft cloud as per the trait. And I would honestly ask if you agree or disagree with that expected item behavior.
.
Even the spell duration text includes:
"Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses)."
Almost as if a cloud of poison created by the puff was designed to linger, and perhaps even have a niche as poison effect, not a magical one.
.
To provide a parallel example that's not in contention:
Guns invoke the splash trait via Scatter in a very similar non-conventional way to how this spell is invoking the inhaled trait. Splash also self-limits/describes itself as a bomb thing, but is used by guns, which dictate where their use does not match the trait.
I don't know of a prior case that only partially-invokes but mostly ~"overrides via omission" an included trait as you claim.
If all the trait did was provide a way to get +2 to the spell's save, but the rest of the behavior was ignored, why would that not be either clarified or simply stated in the spell text? The core function of the trait is spawning a 10ft cloud hazard.
--------------------------------
It's like if a smoke ball had a [smoke cloud] trait that was included in a spell that mentions "and evokes thick smoke upon it's target" but still had a Target 1 and no duration.
As the smoke does not function to impose instant harm/saves upon its target when generated, applying your interpretation would make the use of the trait flavor-only that would vanish instantly. I think in that case, you would agree that the smoke would be intended to linger as per the trait in order for there to be any mechanical effect.
----------------------------------
Does my argument make sense to you?
Anyone else want to weigh in on this?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's not just the lack of a duration entry in the spell.
The lack of a duration entry combined with the rules for how spell stat blocks are defined means that not having the duration entry explicitly sets the duration to instantaneous.
Alchemical items have no such definition. So lacking a specified area of effect, duration, or number of targets does not override the definitions given for those things in the Inhaled trait like the spell entry does.
Almost as if a cloud of poison created by the puff was designed to linger, and perhaps even have a niche as poison effect, not a magical one.
It still wouldn't increase the spell's number of targets from one creature to all creatures in a 10 foot cube area.
To provide a parallel example that's not in contention:
The details of how splash damage work are very much in contention. There are several threads debating that.
I think the issue is the difference between an item/spell that creates an independent child effect, versus an interpretation that has the child effect as not being a separate thing, resulting in a conflicted overlap.
I do have to restate how much of a tortured ruling it would be for the inhaled trait of that spell to only allow creatures the chance to preemptively hold their breath against a puff that doesn't linger in an area, and that they could not see coming. That ability to trade actions to save against the cloud is inherently tied to the existence of that cloud, lol.
.
The Dark Pepper Powder, along with others that clearly work via cloud, still use language like "The target must attempt a DC 16" even when activating the item only generates the cloud via the inhaled trait. It is only the cloud that affects creatures, yet the trait is there so the language bridges that gap and remains concise.
I did not realize that before now you thought I was suggesting the spell had a duration of 1 min.
In my understanding, the spell Puff o P is instantaneous, same as yours is. The spell instantly generates an inhaled poison on top of the target. As the spell duration blurb directly says, some spells create effects that are not tied to the duration of the spell.
Same with the Pepper Powder. Without the inhaled trait, it would be a one-and-done save against the DC. Very few inhaled poisons even mention the existence of a cloud at all.
.
That's why I said there was no conflict with a duration:instant nor targeting 1 creature w/ a range.
Like all the alch inhaled items, my interpretation is that the spell is describing the behavior of the generated cloud. It's indirect, using the trait to avoid saying "any creature within the 10ft cloud when it appears, and enters the cloud during their turn..."
Dark Pepper Powder
Uncommon Alchemical Consumable InhaledUsage held in 2 hands; Bulk L
Activate [one-action] Interact
Made from the smokebulbs that grow in Stonebreach, dark pepper is used as a common spice in dwarven cooking, but can also be an irritant in large quantities. Sacks of dark pepper are readily available in the Roundabout Market, but are less common in markets elsewhere in the city.
You can toss a handful of dark pepper at an adjacent creature as an Interact action. The target must attempt a DC 16 Fortitude save to avoid coughing to the point of choking. On a failed save, the creature coughs uncontrollably, becoming flat-footed for 1 round. On a critical failure, the creature is instead flat-footed for 3 rounds.
Same as with the spell, if you didn't actually read the Inhaled trait, you could use the item as a one-and-done puff without ever knowing it functions via indirect cloud.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I did not realize that before now you thought I was suggesting the spell had a duration of 1 min.
That's the result that you get if you consider the Inhaled trait to take priority over the spell stat block.
That's why I said there was no conflict with a duration:instant nor targeting 1 creature w/ a range.
Like all the alch inhaled items, my interpretation is that the spell is describing the behavior of the generated cloud. It's indirect, using the trait to avoid saying "any creature within the 10ft cloud when it appears, and enters the cloud during their turn..."
And I don't think you can have it both ways. If the spell stats override the Inhaled trait, then it overrides the duration, and it also overrides the Inhaled trait's targets.
Same as with the spell, if you didn't actually read the Inhaled trait, you could use the item as a one-and-done puff without ever knowing it functions via indirect cloud.
Many people have expressed complaints that having to read the traits to find rules in them is non-intuitive.
But that doesn't mean that it isn't what the rules actually say.
And if you don't like reading traits to find out how Dark Pepper Powder works, then you can read the Method of Exposure rules instead. They say the same thing.
-----
As for the point of having the Inhaled trait on the spell, I will agree that trying to have a character hold their breath in order to gain a benefit against the spell is a very non-optimal thing to do and probably wasn't the purpose in listing the trait on the spell.
It is much more likely that it is for invoking the Immunity rules and having creatures immune to spells that have a particular trait.
A creature immune to poison would be immune to Puff of Poison because the spell has the Poison trait.
Similarly, a creature that does not need to breathe could be listed as being immune to the Inhaled trait - and would then also be immune to Puff of Poison even if they were not immune to the poison.
I did not realize that before now you thought I was suggesting the spell had a duration of 1 min.That's the result that you get if you consider the Inhaled trait to take priority over the spell stat block.
It's not "taking priority", the cloud is a separate, lingering effect spawned by the magic. I don't know how else to rephrase this statement to be better understood on that point.
Is it fair to say that if a designer had intended to invoke that "Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical" clause from the Spell Duration entry so that Puff of Poison could have the quirk of non-magical damage would have NEEDED to write it with "no duration therefore instant" as it is now?
How else could the spell have use the trait and been presented in order to achieve that?
-------------------------------
And I don't think you can have it both ways. If the spell stats override the Inhaled trait, then it overrides the duration, and it also overrides the Inhaled trait's targets.That's why I said there was no conflict with a duration:instant nor targeting 1 creature w/ a range.
Like all the alch inhaled items, my interpretation is that the spell is describing the behavior of the generated cloud. It's indirect, using the trait to avoid saying "any creature within the 10ft cloud when it appears, and enters the cloud during their turn..."
Literally nothing in Puff o P is overriding the inhaled trait nor its targets.
The spell has its own parameters as to *how it generates the cloud* (range 5ft base, not allowed to puff preemptive empty space, must puff a foe, ect)and then the spell fills in needed data for the lingering cloud of inhaled poison (damage, save DC, degrees of success) while leaving only the stats provided by the inhaled trait to the trait's default (size & arrangement of 2x2 cloud, duration, wind-clears it, ect.)
The spell lacks a duration because the act of creating a puff of poison is indeed instantaneous. That does not relate to nor is it a mandate that the puff must instantly vanish simply because it's creation was instantaneous.
--------------------------
This is like if someone argued that an Aura spell that has a Save or Sicken effect automatically cleanses all Sickened foes of their condition when the Aura times out. Or that foes leaving the listed range of the spell are no longer Sickened because "the magic can't reach beyond it's range".
Here's one more "surprise" for you, that langue about a spell's lack of duration = instantaneous is not just for spells, it's universal for all effects.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=351
Your idea that the spell's instantaneous effect of cloud making also instantly kills the cloud should also apply to instantly kill all inhaled poison clouds.
---------------------
As for the point of having the Inhaled trait on the spell, I will agree that trying to have a character hold their breath in order to gain a benefit against the spell is a very non-optimal thing to do and probably wasn't the purpose in listing the trait on the spell.
It is much more likely that it is for invoking the Immunity rules and having creatures immune to spells that have a particular trait.
This is a rather outlandish take.
That is not what the Inhaled trait does, the trait is a mechanism for deploying poison clouds. Creatures that do not breathe and have immunity to breathing-related effects say as such with no mention of the trait.
Immunity to the Inhaled trait is not a thing, it does not exist.
Poison immunity does, and breathless creatures may include immunity to breathing-related effects.
--------------------------
If anyone else wants to provide a more compelling reason why the inhaled trait does not function for this spell, but does for the Pepper Powder, I'd be happy to hear it.
At the first post of this I had not dug that deep and didn't know which way it would land. I'm happy to be rather rock-solid in my take of the intended mechanics, even if that's not shared.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You must fight the gazebo alone.
The only thing that the trait does for the spell is that if a creature doesn't need to breathe it is immune.
everything else in the trait gets overwritten by the specific information of the spell. That includes the range, area, and when you roll the save.
The inhaled trait is not used for breathing based immunity any more than the contact trait is used for "skin absorption immunity"
There are itemses that grant bonus to breathing-based saves, some breathless creatures discuss immunity, ect. They do not mention the inhaled trait, because that is a specific mechanic that creates a poison cloud.
-------------
As I will now repeat,
Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses).
The parameters of the spell dictate how the cloud of inhaled poison is generated. There is no reason to think it should overwrite the cloud's statistics. The cloud statistics do not conflict nor care about the spell's statistics used to manifest it.
Not any more than the item statistics of Dark Pepper Powder overwrite the inhaled cloud statistics as well.
Both even have the same "no duration --> instantaneous" rule that is being selectively said to break the spell, but not the item.
This song and dance has been repeated before with magic-created effects that do not need the creator spell to be sustained to keep existing once they have been manifested, like that Sickened example.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As I will now repeat,
Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses).The parameters of the spell dictate how the poison cloud is generated. There is no reason to think it should overwrite the cloud's statistics.
Not any more than the item statistics of Dark Pepper Powder overwrite the inhaled cloud statistics as well.
Both even have the same "no duration --> instantaneous" language.
No reason other than that the rules for alchemical poisons such as Dark Pepper Powder match the Inhaled trait, but the rules for spells do not, and that the rules for alchemical poisons do not specify a default duration if not listed, but the rules for spells do.
There is, however, no reason to think that the Inhaled trait will override the spell's explicit listing of "Target: 1 creature" other than wishful thinking.
As I will now repeat,
Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses).The parameters of the spell dictate how the poison cloud is generated. There is no reason to think it should overwrite the cloud's statistics.
Not any more than the item statistics of Dark Pepper Powder overwrite the inhaled cloud statistics as well.
Both even have the same "no duration --> instantaneous" language.
No reason other than that the rules for alchemical poisons such as Dark Pepper Powder match the Inhaled trait, but the rules for spells do not, and that the rules for alchemical poisons do not specify a default duration if not listed, but the rules for spells do.
There is, however, no reason to think that the Inhaled trait will override the spell's explicit listing of "Target: 1 creature" other than wishful thinking.
It does not override it. They are not parameters that even interact, they dictate different things, why is this so hard to understand.
Items have Interact and the user's Reach statistics as their default for range, spells don't.
Puff o P saying Rage 5ft and Target: 1 creature are the **rules by which you can create the cloud.**
These are needed, as the inhaled trait does not say how it was manifested, it only gives you the mechanics for how the cloud functions once unleashed.
That specific "Targets 1 Creature" disallows one from puffing empty space, matching the spell flavor "You exhale a shimmering cloud of toxic breath at an enemy's face." If it said "one adjacent square" it would be a different spell.
Some spells create AoE effects upon a target creature. Such spells need a range for the targeting, and more data on what the created effects do, ranges for those created effects, ect. Think Aqueous Orb. That's what the inhaled trait is doing, with the twist that the poison itself is a non-magical cloud.
Others leave behind effects after the magic is over, like a bunch of Sickened foes that still need to manually purge. Same idea, there's no magic that needs to be sustained for the created effect to persist.
.
This spell creates a cloud of minor poison in a manner that deliberately apes the function and limitations of the alchemical items that the trait comes from.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Some spells create AoE effects upon a target...
"Target: 1 creature" is not the same as "Area: 10 foot cube", nor is it the same as "Area: Emanation".
If the intent of the spell was to create a persistent area of hazardous poison, then it would do so - like Stinking Cloud does.
If it was meant to create an instantaneous effect that fills a 10 foot area that affects all creatures in that area, then it would say so - like Spout does when cast over a body of water.
But it doesn't. It says "Target: 1 creature". And that isn't flavor text. And it is much less likely to be extraneous information than the Inhaled trait is.
Some spells create AoE effects upon a target..."Target: 1 creature" is not the same as "Area: 10 foot cube", nor is it the same as "Area: Emanation".
If the intent of the spell was to create a persistent area of hazardous poison, then it would do so - like Stinking Cloud does.
If it was meant to create an instantaneous effect that fills a 10 foot area that affects all creatures in that area, then it would say so - like Spout does when cast over a body of water.
But it doesn't. It says "Target: 1 creature". And that isn't flavor text. And it is much less likely to be extraneous information than the Inhaled trait is.
Stinking Cloud's hazard is magical, while the Spell Duration blurb indicates that Puff's is not.
Again, inhaled trait items like the Pepper Power have the exact same "might not notice the cloud" issue.
There is no mention of targeting an area, because the spell does not target an area. It generates poison that covers an area on top of a target.
Traits are not extraneous. If the Pepper Powder lacked the inhaled trait it would technically be a functional item, just an non-viably bad one.
Puff of Poison is using the inhaled trait in the exact same way it is being used by such alch items.
It is nearly impossible to argue it's worth a cantrip slot if it does not benefit from the inhaled trait, and like those alch poisons, actually has some use-cases if it does.
------------------
Think of traits like included paragraphs that are like collapse elements hidden by default. When (just inhaled) is expanded, Puff of Poison reads:
Cantrip 1
[Cantrip] [Evocation] [Inhaled] [Poison]Traditions arcane, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 5 feet; Targets 1 creature[inhaled]
An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.Saving Throw Fortitude
You exhale a shimmering cloud of toxic breath at an enemy's face. The target takes poison damage equal to your spellcasting modifier and 2 persistent poison damage, depending on its Fortitude save.Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The target takes half initial and persistent damage.
Failure The target takes full initial and persistent damage.
Critical Failure The target takes double initial and persistent damage.Heightened (+2) The initial poison damage increases by 1d8 and the persistent poison damage increases by 1.
----------------------
There is no way to be consistent with the rules and only take some of the inhaled trait and not all. I'll say again, the alch items also do not mention the generation of a cloud, that job is left to the inhaled trait.
Specific overriding general would be if some Spell unique text conflicted with that inhaled paragraph. Such as saying the cloud only persisted 3 turns. None of it does. When placed directly above the spell, I can only hope that it's easier to understand just how well the inhaled trait fits.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is also no way to take all of the Inhaled trait and not be inconsistent with the spell.
Find any other spell that lists "Target: 1 creature" and has no effect other than dealing damage that affects all creatures in an area. That isn't how spell targeting works.
The rules in traits are known to be general purpose. Just look at any of the Ancestry traits like Gnome. Or Planar traits like Earth. Surely you aren't going to try making the argument that everything that has the Gnome trait is a weapon that a Gnome uses, or that anything with the Earth trait has no effect in an area that has no earth nearby.
So if the rules between a trait that a spell has and the spell itself are in conflict, I am going to rule that the spell's stats and rules take priority.
So no, Puff of Poison does not create an area of effect that affects all creatures in the area - the spell doesn't say that. It affects the one creature targeted. Because that is what the spell says that it does.
The rules in traits are known to be general purpose. Just look at any of the Ancestry traits like Gnome. Or Planar traits like Earth. Surely you aren't going to try making the argument that everything that has the Gnome trait is a weapon that a Gnome uses, or that anything with the Earth trait has no effect in an area that has no earth nearby.
Oh jeez dude. I swear I'm not trying to be mean here.
A creature with this trait is a member of the gnome ancestry. Gnomes are small people skilled at magic who seek out new experiences and usually have low-light vision. An ability with this trait can be used or selected only by gnomes. A weapon with this trait is created and used by gnomes.
You may want to read that again.
There are many traits like that one that mean different things depending on what it is attached to. Mutually exclusive contexts.
Yes, every creature with the Gnome trait is a Gnome of some sort.
Every weapon with the Gnome trait was created/invented by gnomes.
Any ability with the Gnome trait is exclusive to gnomes.
That is very carefully written so that 2/3 of those declarations are dead text that does not apply.
Only 1/3 will matter. And when that trait is there, it's not something to be ignored.
You may want to slow down and really dissect and process the language of what you're reading.
"A weapon with this trait is created and used by gnomes."
does not say *only* used by gnomes, nor that all weapons used by gnomes must have the trait.
That language is very finely crafted to convey the generalities you seem to think contradict the trait as it is written.
-----------------------
And once again I need to re-state that there is no conflict between the parameters of the inhaled poison and the spell that creates it within Puff of Poison.
Yes, a spell using the inhaled trait is abnormal.
No, Puff of Poison being a spell instead of an alch item does not render the trait non-functional.
It affects the one creature targeted. Because that is what the spell says that it does.
No. The inhaled trait specifies that the item spell unleashes a cloud of poison, a puff of poison, if you will. Stop ignoring the entire effect of generating a hazard.
Again, the target entry is just like the Pepper Powder. You pop it at a foe, and the effect is to create a poison cloud upon them.
I don't know if you are not reading this or have just ignored it for the Nth time, but it would mechanically buff the spell if it did not have the restriction to target a creature, as it would allow for a caster to create a whole lot of poison preemptively, potentially covering a room before a fight even started.
Whoever put that restraint on the cantrip most likely understood that potential for abuse available to an infinite cantrip that's not a worry for consumable Alch items.
-------------------------
Spout's targeting has similar important functional meaning. Targeting a 5ft volume instead of a creature means you don't need to see them, no need for concealment checks nor any form of visibility. If an ally Points Out the square of an invisible foe, you can blast them with spout, which it not true if the language was different.
Again, Puff of Poison says inhaled trait. You bring that text in as if it was a paragraph within the spell. Yes, Puff of Poison says to generate a 2x2 of poison, and it does so via the inhaled trait.
In the same way that Spout gets "Effects with the water trait either manipulate or conjure water." from the water trait. It's there, just easy to forget (and not usually this important).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A creature with this trait is a member of the gnome ancestry. Gnomes are small people skilled at magic who seek out new experiences and usually have low-light vision. An ability with this trait can be used or selected only by gnomes. A weapon with this trait is created and used by gnomes.You may want to read that again.
There are many traits like that one that mean different things depending on what it is attached to. Mutually exclusive contexts.
Mmm-Hmm... Now apply that to the Inhaled trait.
It doesn't work like this.
The inhaled trait specifies that theitemspell unleashes a cloud of poison, a puff of poison, if you will.
Mutually exclusive contexts doesn't mean that you get to replace one of them with a different one of your choosing.
Am I being trolled?
Dark Pepper Powder is not a poison, it does not have the poison trait nor deals poison damage. Despite that, it is compatible with being an inhaled cloud.
The cantrip is not an explicitly irrelevant context. There is no either or language. There is only one mechanical effect of the inhaled trait.
"An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container."
not matching up exactly with the spell description of exhaling it via magic at someone's face does not somehow nullify the trait's text.
Puff of Poison - - - - Cantrip 1
[Cantrip] [Evocation] [Inhaled] [Poison]Traditions arcane, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 5 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving Throw Fortitude
An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud.
Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.
You exhale a shimmering cloud of toxic breath at an enemy's face. The target takes poison damage equal to your spellcasting modifier and 2 persistent poison damage, depending on its Fortitude save.
Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The target takes half initial and persistent damage.
Failure The target takes full initial and persistent damage.
Critical Failure The target takes double initial and persistent damage.Heightened (+2) The initial poison damage increases by 1d8 and the persistent poison damage increases by 1.
Even if it left behind a cloud, it would leave a cloud without an effect tied to it, since no effect is being specified.
The effect is specified in the trait. ;)
There is no poison statblock to spread to begin with.
1 target suffers the effects of the spell.
Saying that the same exact effects affect other targets, when specifically the spell mentions what happens to a specific target is 100% arbitrary and baseless.
The spell says 1 target. And then what happens to THAT target. Nothing more, nothing less.
Even if it left behind a cloud, it would leave a cloud without an effect tied to it, since no effect is being specified.
This is like if Aqueous Orb, Protector Tree, or another "make a unique thing that does weird stuff" spell had the behavior of the child effect shunted off into a trait. Like if there was some "sustained orb" trait, or "blocker minion" trait. Yes, most of the time the spell defines the behavior within the spell text.
In this case, the function of the spell is to make a puff of inhaled poison. There is no ambiguity about what that does.
If the spell was intended to be a one-and-done to one foe, it would not include the trait.
And again, the Target entry is how the cloud is allowed to be manifested. Target 1 creature limits the cantrip and potential shenanigans to prevent filling empty space.
--------------
With the fact that the alch items that the trait comes from also would be missing half their function if the same interpretation were applied to both, I'm very confident in this. Again, Dark Pepper Power would *technically work* in the exact same "once only, kinda worthless" manner as the cantrip.
Dark Pepper Powder - - - - Item 2
Uncommon Alchemical Consumable Inhaled
Usage held in 2 hands; Bulk LActivate [one-action] Interact
An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.Made from the smokebulbs that grow in Stonebreach, dark pepper is used as a common spice in dwarven cooking, but can also be an irritant in large quantities. Sacks of dark pepper are readily available in the Roundabout Market, but are less common in markets elsewhere in the city.
You can toss a handful of dark pepper at an adjacent creature as an Interact action. The target must attempt a DC 16 Fortitude save to avoid coughing to the point of choking. On a failed save, the creature coughs uncontrollably, becoming flat-footed for 1 round. On a critical failure, the creature is instead flat-footed for 3 rounds.
------------------
Puff of Poison - - - - Cantrip 1
Cantrip Evocation Inhaled Poison
Traditions arcane, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 5 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving Throw FortitudeAn inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.You exhale a shimmering cloud of toxic breath at an enemy's face. The target takes poison damage equal to your spellcasting modifier and 2 persistent poison damage, depending on its Fortitude save.
Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The target takes half initial and persistent damage.
Failure The target takes full initial and persistent damage.
Critical Failure The target takes double initial and persistent damage.Heightened (+2) The initial poison damage increases by 1d8 and the persistent poison damage increases by 1.
The key difference is they Both (the spell and Dark pepper) specify that they target a single creature, while normal inhaled poisons dont have that.
What.
That is effectively flavor text within the Pepper Powder, discussing how the item becomes airborne.
And why the Pepper Powder has usage of 2-H, which IS the abnormal part of the item.
Most inhaled poisons do not even mention the existence of a cloud, and leave it all to the trait.
-----------------
The trait is there because the effect is a "poison cloud", and holding its breath and non-breathing creature are effected differently by the spell. nothing are left after the casting.
and yes its the same for Dark Pepper Powder.
So to be clear, your way to make sense of completely ignoring the inhaled mechanic, and to deny the spell that directly says "you exhale a cloud", is to claim that the Pepper Powder gets no cloud as well?
Do you understand why I might guess I'm getting trolled here?
-----------------
What about another 2-H, "throw a handful at them," like Sneezing Powder? Does that not get the cloud?
What about the alch inhaled poisons that are also drugs, like Refined Pesh? Does the ability to eat it, or put it in a pipe and smoke it, remove the cloud of inhaled poison when used in combat?
------------------
Claiming that Pepper Powder (and Puff of Poison) does not create a cloud is just straight-up denying the text.
An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.
That's what using something with the inhaled trait does, that's the rule.
Some item/spell would NEED to specifically say "there is no 1 min cloud" or "the cloud dissipates in 3 turns" in order to override that.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Inhaled trait says the following:
inhaled (trait) This poison is delivered when breathed in.
That's it. Nothing about any lingering clouds. So the cantrip affects just one target as advertised.
-----
The rules about lingering clouds are additional rules which specifically apply only to alchemical poisons with this trait. You've missed this because your snippet of text from AoN doesn't include the earlier text which provides the context.
Each alchemical poison has one of the following traits, which define how a creature can be exposed to that poison.
...
Inhaled: An inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.
Notice how the rules say that they "define how a creature can be exposed to that poison." These rules aren't referring to all poisons with those traits, but only to the aforementioned alchemical poisons that have those traits.
Without this heading text to put things in context, it wasn't clear to you that the later references to poisons had already been restricted to alchemical poisons for this portion of the text.
And since the cantrip isn't an alchemical poison, these rules don't apply to the cantrip.
THANK YOU.
I really appreciate that you are actually quoting the books and using real arguments.
-----------------------
I don't think citing the glossary entry in the player core debunks this, at all. It's a 7 word summary to get the gist of what the trait means, it's not the actual trait.
The GM core doesn't even have that mini-version in it's glossary, it's just a pg number to go to the full trait.
TBH, it's a little disingenuous to present the glossary entry of the player core, which is a bare-bones book, as the actual trait. It's in that glossary only because Breath Control and the Leshy familiar, which reference it. Note that the ingested trait is absent, as it's never mentioned.
OK. I will say that claiming the glossary entry resolves this discussion with a "That's it" is an outright disingenuous use of the text.
------------------------
Your argument on the context of alchemical poisons is MUCH stronger.
However, while my understanding of this topic has grown from the exchange, I'm afraid I still think I'm correct here.
Traits do get reused outside of their originating context.
Splash being put into guns is a great example of this. They did not make a new trait, but used splash.
When you use a thrown weapon with the splash trait, you don’t add your Strength modifier to the damage roll. If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack still takes the splash damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s weaknesses or resistances. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.
Despite the context of splash being a thrown weapon trait once only used by alchemical bombs, it's fine to be used in gun Scatter.
------------
Puff of Poison is a TIGHT spell with low word count.
And even then, the one bit of flavor is "You exhale a shimmering cloud of toxic breath at an enemy's face."
Everything about the spell is clearly aping inhaled alchemical poisons.
The inhaled trait is very much the "cloud of poison" trait, yes.
The poison side is left to its own trait, which is one of the reasons I was using Dark Pepper Powder. It's alchemical, but it's not technically a poison, yet it's easy to understand it still scatters a cloud of pepper in the air as per the trait.
The inhaled trait is a delivery mechanism. It's a cloud-maker. The original context of it being written for alch poisons does not nullify it's function when used by "exhale a cloud of poison, the spell" just because of the trait reuse.
It is NOT used to indicate airborne threats, it is ONLY applied to player options to create poison clouds. No monster ability uses it, nothing else.
.
Feats like Breath Control use wording like "You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to saving throws against inhaled threats, such as inhaled poisons, and if you roll a success on such a saving throw, you get a critical success instead."
Inhaled poisons are used as one example of the concept.
There are already other spells like Noxious Vapors that have hazard clouds, have the poison trait, ect.
They do NOT use the inhaled tag, but any GM using the spell on a player with Uncanny Breath is giving them that +1.
Meaning that the one spell that uses the inhaled trait is doing so precisely to invoke the cloud making mechanics of the cloud making trait.
Ok. I don't care to be insulted, so I'm out of this thread.
I read Trip.H's post three times and didn't find it. Where were you insulted?
I don't think citing the glossary entry in the player core debunks this, at all. It's a 7 word summary to get the gist of what the trait means, it's not the actual trait.
The GM core doesn't even have that mini-version in it's glossary, it's just a pg number to go to the full trait.
If that is true that the entry is not the actual trait, it sets up a problematic precedent where several traits aren't defined anywhere else and others, like inhaled, that appear to be defined in different places in contradictory ways.
I believe the intent is that the glossary IS the place where traits are traditionally defined, as determined by the glossary's Trait entry and the Glossary intro in the Core Rulebook.
Player Core / Core Rulbook
Core Rulebook
It simplifies things greatly and prevents all sorts of problems, like the one being discussed here in this thread, from cropping up.
I agree with Gisher's interpretation on this one.
I don't think citing the glossary entry in the player core debunks this, at all. It's a 7 word summary to get the gist of what the trait means, it's not the actual trait.
The GM core doesn't even have that mini-version in it's glossary, it's just a pg number to go to the full trait.
If that is true that the entry is not the actual trait, it sets up a problematic precedent where several traits aren't defined anywhere else and others, like inhaled, that appear to be defined in different places in contradictory ways.
I believe the intent is that the glossary IS the place where traits are traditionally defined, as determined by the glossary's Trait entry and the Glossary intro in the Core Rulebook.
Player Core / Core Rulbook
Core Rulebook
It simplifies things greatly and prevents all sorts of problems, like the one being discussed here in this thread, from cropping up.
I agree with Gisher's interpretation on this one.
Hmmm, I can at least say for sure that there's a lot of weirdness and other omissions in that Player Core glossary. Splash is weird in that it points to the pg for bombs, which almost replicated the splash trait text, but never even mentions it's defining a splash trait, it's just a paragraph on bombs.
Skimming from the top, there's entries on angel and archon traits that are also abbreviated, not matching the full trait in the GM core.
angel (trait):
This family of celestials is native to the plane Nirvana.
angel (trait):
This family of celestials is native to the plane Nirvana. Most angels are Holy, have darkvision, and have weakness to Unholy.
-------------------------------
Yeah, I really must say I do NOT like that you can't trust the player core glossary.
Like, all they had to do was indicate when it's glossary entry is abbreviated. That would at least prevent conflict.
WOW.
Not only am I finding Plr Cr traits that are abbreviated versions of GM Cr, but I found a trait that's in the Plr Cr & absent from the GM Cr, lol.
The concealable weapon trait is in the Plr Cr, but "concealable" is not in the entire GM Cr pdf. Like, okay.
That's the worst possible implementation.
The implementation of the two different book glossaries/indexes have conflict between them, AND you still need to read and reference both because neither one is even complete!
--------------------
Thankfully, with how abbreviated the Plr Cr version of the inhaled trait is, and how complete the GM version is (just pointing to the full trait pg), it's easy to say the 7 word blurb in the Plr Cr glossary is not the actual trait. Really needs a footnote symbol for "not the full text, see GM core" for all those entries in which it applies. Leaving that unlabeled is a rather significant and unforced blunder.
I read Trip.H's post three times and didn't find it. Where were you insulted?
Having someone determinedly claim victory in a debate despite any and all valid counter arguments feels very insulting.
I read Trip.H's post three times and didn't find it. Where were you insulted?Having someone determinedly claim victory in a debate despite any and all valid counter arguments feels very insulting.
It try to avoid debating. While yeah it means a similar potential for conflict, engaging in a dialectic is a genuinely great way to expand one's knowledge and understanding. Can't get the same thing reading alone.
If it seems I have ever "claimed victory" I'd like to say that's never the intention nor goal. As stated previously, I really had little idea wtf was going on with the cantrip when this thread started. The only goal is to figure out what the truth of the matter is.
Also, the irony of your statement, considering how well it could apply to Gisher's post, is rather humorous.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If it seems I have ever "claimed victory" I'd like to say that's never the intention nor goal. As stated previously, I really had little idea wtf was going on with the cantrip when this thread started. The only goal is to figure out what the truth of the matter is.
Hmph. Could have fooled me.
I'm happy to be rather rock-solid in my take of the intended mechanics, even if that's not shared.
However, while my understanding of this topic has grown from the exchange, I'm afraid I still think I'm correct here.
But anyway. I also don't feel that I need to convince you of anything. People reading this thread in the future because they are trying to figure things out will still have my thoughts on the matter available to see.
Hiding thread now.
... Can we talk about how Puff of Poison is a cantrip, the weakest form of spell there is, and that we might want to keep that in mind when interpreting its intended effects?
Creating a 27 m³ cloud of poison does seem a bit too outlandish for a cantrip, so perhaps that is also a reason to go with the actual text in the spell's target entry. Like, a 'puff' describing just enough of a volume to force the intended target to inhale it or something.
... Can we talk about how Puff of Poison is a cantrip, the weakest form of spell there is, and that we might want to keep that in mind when interpreting its intended effects?
Creating a 27 m³ cloud of poison does seem a bit too outlandish for a cantrip, so perhaps that is also a reason to go with the actual text in the spell's target entry. Like, a 'puff' describing just enough of a volume to force the intended target to inhale it or something.
Inhaled poisons still only proc an exposure event once.
As written, targets can sit in the cloud after a save and never roll again. It's not clear if one saves, leaves, and reenters if they even need to roll a 2nd save. I've never seen it happen.
If you can get around the Draw action, and there's 2 foes, a 1 action puff of Mustard Powder is a goodish option as it's not MAP, but even inhaled poisons are not "good" exactly.
The lingering cloud is more of a threatening bluff than anything dangerous.
If Scatter Scree is 30ft and 2 adjacent targets, with lasting difficult terrain that can be useful to block Step, then a melee ranged 2x2 lingering cloud that you *might* get lucky with and get a later exposure is completely in line with other cantrips.
Caustic Blast is a 2x2 burst, Reflex save, acid (amazing dmg type), 30ft range.
Puff of Poison is a lingering 2x2, Fort save, poison (worst dmg type), 5ft range.
Yeah, I'm not seeing any issue there.
I will repeat only player options for making poison clouds use the inhaled trait. None of the other inhaled hazards that clearly do trigger inhaled defenses like Uncanny Breath use the trait.
I get that stuff can get lost in the thread, but I've stated many times that Target 1 Creature does not conflict with the cloud behavior at all. It's the same idea for targeting behavior being different than what the produced effect does. Protector Tree doesn't "target adjacent allies." The parameters and behaviors of child effects are not in the spell parameters. In this case, the exhaled cloud's behavior is in the trait.
Target 1 creature is there to dictate when and how you are allowed to make a puff. If it targeted an adjacent square, you would be allowed to puff empty space, and because it's an unlimited cantrip and not a limited consumable, that could cause shenanigans.
Someone ruling that Pepper Powder does not create a cloud is ridiculous. That text is an explanation as to how a sack of Pepper *can* become an inhaled hazard, you literally grab a handful and toss. And as the trait says, once unleashed from it's container, it makes a cloud. Doesn't matter that it was thrown at a face. The text of the item would need to specifically mention how it alters the behavior of the trait.
I'll again point to Splash being used by guns, despite the text talking about alchemical bombs. Mechanical traits are not that hyper-specific, they can and are reused in different contexts.
And again, the entire function of the trait is for PC tools that create lingering poison clouds, which have utility at controlling space right next to you.
It's not used to label things as airborne hazards, the trait is not used anywhere else, there are plenty of other spells, items, and monsters that would use it if so.
As that's the case, do you have another explanation as to why the cantrip has the trait, if it's entire mechanic of creating lingering poison clouds is somehow overruled by the Target 1 creature restriction?
In my eyes Puff of Poison as well as Pepper Powder are pretty clear in their intention, they affect one target instantaneously upon use and that's the extent of their effect. I would rule neither cause a lingering cloud as neither are poisons and wouldn't follow the inhaled poison rules.
Ideally, they could simply leave off the Inhaled trait from both of these effects to avoid these readings, but the spell and item are pretty explicit in how they specifically function to me.
In my eyes Puff of Poison as well as Pepper Powder are pretty clear in their intention, they affect one target instantaneously upon use and that's the extent of their effect. I would rule neither cause a lingering cloud as neither are poisons and wouldn't follow the inhaled poison rules.
Ideally, they could simply leave off the Inhaled trait from both of these effects to avoid these readings, but the spell and item are pretty explicit in how they specifically function to me.
That is the entire function of the trait. The only time the existence of the cloud is mentioned in any of the inhaled items is when it's behavior is modified. For Yellow Musk, that's for the victim to be fascinated by the cloud.
-------------------
If the trait was there to signal airborne hazards, it would be used all over the place. There is no reason to have the trait if it's a hit one target and done kind of deal.
You cannot say "I don't like that it has the trait & it's functionality, so I'm going to ignore it."
------------------------
Here is the item Blindpepper Tube. It's an alchemical consumable that you pop into a foe's face.
You know what it does not have? It does not have the inhaled trait.
Blindpepper Tube - - - -Item 1
This Item may contain spoilers from the Agents of Edgewatch Adventure Path
Uncommon Alchemical Consumable VisualPrice 3 gp
Usage held in 1 hand; Bulk L
This single-use pacification device consists of finely ground hot pepper loaded into a sealed, blowgun-style tube with a one-way valve and a range of 5 feet. To use it, the wielder must tear open the tube's seal as an Interact action, then spend another action to blow the hot pepper into an adjacent creature's face.
These actions don't have to be taken in the same round. The target must attempt a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid inhaling the pepper or getting it in their eyes. On a failed save, the creature is blinded for 1 round and then dazzled for 1 round. On a critical failure, the creature is blinded for 1 round, sickened 1, and dazzled until it removes the sickened condition.
When they don't want something to make a cloud, they don't include the trait. It's that simple.
It really boils down to "I don't like that trait giving the item/spell that effect, so I'm going to pretend it doesn't get to do its one job."
In my eyes Puff of Poison as well as Pepper Powder are pretty clear in their intention, they affect one target instantaneously upon use and that's the extent of their effect. I would rule neither cause a lingering cloud as neither are poisons and wouldn't follow the inhaled poison rules.
Ideally, they could simply leave off the Inhaled trait from both of these effects to avoid these readings, but the spell and item are pretty explicit in how they specifically function to me.
That is the entire function of the trait. The only time the existence of the cloud is mentioned in any of the inhaled items is when it's behavior is modified. For Yellow Musk, that's for the victim to be fascinated by the cloud.
-------------------
If the trait was there to signal airborne hazards, it would be used all over the place. There is no reason to have the trait if it's a hit one target and done kind of deal.
You cannot say "I don't like that it has the trait & it's functionality, so I'm going to ignore it."
Specific trumps general in this case, the Puff of Poison spell and Pepper Powder are very explicit about how they target and who makes a check: the target. They require the target to inhale the spell or item to affect it. It is exactly what it says on the tin.
I'm personally inclined to believe the writers of these entries likely added the trait erroneously to show an airborne hazard, but haven't had any errata pass catch or correct it. Since you are correct that they are strange outliers which makes me assume they are in fact errors. But in any case, they're specific enough to override the general rule either way.
If this was a specific override issue, the spell text would need to specifically call out what it's changing about the trait.
When you use a trait, it's bringing in all that text.
Puff of Poison - - - - Cantrip 1
Cantrip Evocation Inhaled Poison
Source Secrets of Magic pg. 124 1.1
Traditions arcane, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 5 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving Throw FortitudeAn inhaled poison is activated by unleashing it from its container. Once unleashed, the poison creates a cloud filling a 10-foot cube lasting for 1 minute or until a strong wind dissipates the cloud. Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.You exhale a shimmering cloud of toxic breath at an enemy's face. The target takes poison damage equal to your spellcasting modifier and 2 persistent poison damage, depending on its Fortitude save.
Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The target takes half initial and persistent damage.
Failure The target takes full initial and persistent damage.
Critical Failure The target takes double initial and persistent damage.Heightened (+2) The initial poison damage increases by 1d8 and the persistent poison damage increases by 1.
If the spell said "You exhale a 1 square cloud of..." or other such language, then we would know it's specifically modifying the cloud. None of the text conflicts with the trait, nor the targeting parameters, ect conflict with the cloud.
And again, there are shenanigan-stopping balance implications of Target 1 creature.
---------------------------------
This is about a spell with specific parameters, creating a second child effect with its own parameters. Applying your argument to Protector Tree would result in "my tree can block for him at that range, the spell says 30 ft range. That range entry overrides the tree's behavior."
Another one would be Create Water. It's got range entry of 0ft for making water and no duration. Without allowing for the created water to exist as a child effect have it's own separate behavior, that range 0 would cause it to disappear as soon as it's no longer attended by the spellcaster.
From every angle I've looked, the puff creates a cloud.
----------------------------------
There's not even a balance problem. As inhaled poisons are still limited to 1 exposure event per target, it's not that strong even with the cloud, but might actually be worth a slot for casters that get into melee a lot.
--------------------------------
I'm personally inclined to believe the writers of these entries likely added the trait erroneously to show an airborne hazard, but haven't had any errata pass catch or correct it. Since you are correct that they are strange outliers which makes me assume they are in fact errors.
That's the crux of it. Whether you think it's too weird or too good, or whatever feeling is behind it, it is your feeling that it's a mistake.
I wish I could say Paizo's record was spotless enough to remove all worry, but they just released a remaster with contradictory bomb splash behavior. (GM core bombs splash unchanged, on miss hit all foes. Player core bomb miss means only splash throw target).
However, all the context surrounding Puff of Poison, from the 5ft range that apes the inhaled items, the spell text directly saying you "exhale a cloud," even the name itself, all remove any doubt in my mind. I'm as certain as I can be that the spell was intended to create a little poison cloud.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Giving item traits to spells has caused confusion since the original PF2 player’s core rulebook. Splash was given to acid splash (a cantrip) and there was never a functional, consistent way to interpret how it worked because of how the trait was clearly written for items, not spells.
The inhaled trait in the player core one just says “This poison is delivered when breathed in.”
I think this issue has essentially been stealth resolved and the crux of this debate is on using pre remastered rules. I don’t believe the intention was ever for the spell to create a cloud, and that is probably why it doesn’t anymore in remastered rules. Not using those rules, it is going to be a table by table debate, and not one rules lawyering is likely to resolve consistently in the same way. I would certainly not expect PFS GMs to give you a cloud, and definitely not consistently.
...
I'm not understanding the comparison to Protector Tree, Protector Tree is very explicit in what it can block, so that makes no sense. Where Puff of Poison is specific about exactly what it affects, 1 target. The name and description of the spell are more than enough to clarify, it's a puff, a small cloud directly into someone's face.
The inhaled trait in the player core one just says “This poison is delivered when breathed in.”
That has already been discussed. As far as I can understand, that's an abbreviation, like with many of the other traits in the player core that have more complete versions in the GM core.
If you take that text to actually mean the whole trait, that breaks all inhaled items. And is indirect conflict w/ the GM core book. It's not relevant/red herring to this talk.
----------------------
I'm not understanding the comparison to Protector Tree, Protector Tree is very explicit in what it can block, so that makes no sense. Where Puff of Poison is specific about exactly what it affects, 1 target. The name and description of the spell are more than enough to clarify, it's a puff, a small cloud directly into someone's face.
The inhaled trait is just as explanatory and specific as the spell text describing the tree's behavior. Once unleashed, the poison forms a cloud that triggers an exposure event if targets enter. The targeting 1 creature is a prerequisite for puffing out a cloud, it's not a parameter of the created cloud any more than the Range of Protector Tree overrules the tree's range.
Target 1 is not a size entry, that's like saying because you need a "target 1" to throw a splash bomb at, the splash doesn't have a radius of effect anymore even though the trait says to.
------
My whole point is that you can see that the tree has different parameters than the spell that created it. The rules by which you make the tree are not the same as the tree's rules. For whatever reason, you are treating the inhaled text differently. That text is what creates the lingering cloud. The spell would need specific text saying no cloud is made to override it. Target 1 creature happens *before* the cloud exists at all.
------
If that tree were instead using some "blocking minion" trait and did not have that the tree's behavior within the text itself, it would be equivalent.
--------------------------
I'm also interested in hearing your thoughts on the Create Water example. If you think the rules work like that, the water should disappear when it moves beyond 0 ft, yes?
"Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical."
That water has it's behavior, of evaporating after a time limit, defined in the text.
The inhaled cloud has it's behavior defined in the trait. Both are created by no Duration spells, but clearly exist beyond the spells that made them.
Create Water creates 2 gallons of water and evaporates after a day, very specific in how it functions, so I have no idea what you're asking me. It just creates water. Nothing in my argument implies I think the water should disappear. This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand and like Protector Tree makes no sense.
I've stated my opinion on Puff of Poison, to me the entry is clear in how it functions as it is not an inhaled alchemical poison as well as the spell being very specific in function, it affects only the target. The discussion feels as if it's going on circles now so I'm taking my leave.
Create Water creates 2 gallons of water and evaporates after a day, very specific in how it functions, so I have no idea what you're asking me. It just creates water. Nothing in my argument implies I think the water should disappear.
Spells disappear beyond their range. If you move away from or roll an Aqueous Orb outside the listed spell range, it disappears.
Create Water has a listed range of 0ft. If it disappeared when the creator put the jug down, it would still be functional. They would just have to use/drink it first.
If you think the water gets to still exist beyond that range, then you already accept the concept of magic creating child effects that have no relation to the spell's casting parameters.
The created water is non-magical water and behaves as such, except as the specific spell text has defined an override. For Create Water, its water has the extra effect of evaporating if unused.
Puff Of Poison creates a 1-min cloud, same as Create Water manifests 1-day water.
I do not understand where this breaks down for you. The mechanic being an included trait should be an irrelevant detail, just literally paste the trait text above the spell text.
The spell text supplies the poison cloud's save effects same as Mustard Powder does for its cloud. If Puff of Poison was an item instead of a spell, would that matter to you? Why?