For a non Golarion setting, i'm making a cleric, as header suggests.
There are a few changes/limitations in this game.
1) Core races, Aasimar & Tiefling
2) Core classes only. (archetypes are fair game)
3) Divine casters cast all spells as -full round actions-, as per the alternative magic system.
Regular full round castings will likely cost 2 full rounds.
4) 25pt buy.
The character's parents dabbled in the occult, which led to their child growing a third unnatural eye on its forehead. Cue the parents being tried for doing dark rituals, they got adopted by a traveling Idyllkin monk that took pity on the infant. This 3rd eye influences (flavor) the character into following a deity of madness and subterfuge.
Build:
N Aasimar cleric 1
Alternate racial traits:
- Scion of humanity
- SLA replacement table: racial +2 to sense motive
Darkvision 60ft
Init +1
Speed 30ft
Languages: Common, Dwarven, Elven
Ability scores (post-racial): Str 14 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 18 Cha 10
-------------------------------------------------
Offense:
BaB +0, CMB +2, CMD 14
Sica +2 (1d6+2, S, x2)
Defense:
Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +6
Acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
HP: 10 (1d8 +1 Con +1 FCB)
Traits:
Adopted - Social (take a race trait from adopted parent race > Enlightened warrior)
Mutant eye - Magic (You grow a 3rd eye, +2 to sense motive, -1 penalty to bluff & diplomacy with humanoids who can see it)
Wisdom in the flesh - Religion (Wis for stealth, stealth becomes a class skill)
Drawback - Bitter (When you receive healing from an ally’s class feature, spell, or spell-like ability, reduce the amount of that healing by 1 hit point.)
Feats
1) Fast learner (+1 HP and skill point per level)
1) Exotic weapon proficiency [Sica, favored weapon]
3) Skill focus (stealth)
3) Snake style (monk MomS) (deal with touch attacks 1/round)
5) Weapon focus [Sica]
7) TBD
9) TBD
Skills: 5 a/lvl (2 class +2 Int +1 Feat)
: 2 a/lvl (Background skill points)
Appraise +6 (1 BGSP +2 Int +3 Class)
Kn. Religion +6 (1 rank +2 Int +3 Class)
Linguistics +2 (1 BGSP +1 Int)
Perception +7 (1 rank +4 Wis +2 Racial)
Sense motive +10/+12(+14) (1 rank +4 Wis +3 Class +2 alternate racial / +2 trait (+4 if to see if someone is under mind-affecting effect))
Stealth +8 (1 rank +4 Wis +3 Class)
-------------------------------------
Cleric features:
Chaotic Aura (deity of madness)
Channel x3 (1d6 positive)
Domains: Madness & Clandestine inquisition
Domain powers:
Vision of Madness (Sp): You can give a creature a vision of madness as a melee touch attack. Choose one of the following: attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. The target receives a bonus to the chosen rolls equal to ½ your cleric level (minimum +1) and a penalty to the other two types of rolls equal to ½ your cleric level (minimum –1). This effect fades after 3 rounds. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Inquisition abilities:
Disappear (Sp) (7 a/day)
You can become invisible as per the spell as a standard action. The invisibility lasts for 1 round per inquisitor cleric level or until you attack. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Now one would usually take an inquisitor for a stealthy divine agent of a deity, but with the limitations such as they are, this is the base approach. I am merely guessing this will go to lvl 9, not low but not too high. The GM had not specified the level cap.
The party is 3 or 4 PCs. We have a sorcerer, this PC, and an unknown surprise 3rd.
Seems interesting and fun. You have a character who likes to go unnoticed if possible, but reads others quite well. The features all suggest a niche you can fill, give you useful actions to take in multiple encounter types, and all seem to support or influence your flavor choices. What help or advice are you wanting?
hmmm...
the casting time can be problematic and is a direct hit to action economy and cuts out the go first spellcasting strategy. For non-front liners it is less of an issue and makes faster summoning and quicken metamagic more valuable.
For Inquisitor to focus your feat choices; 1) be a caster (metamagics), 2) choose DEX wpn or TwoWpnFighting and their feat chains, 3) reach weapons to trip and protect first rank (combat feats).
Feats: I'm not keen on weapon proficiency or skill focus. There are better more basic things to focus on at low level. If you need a weapon try a trait.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: simple weapons, hand crossbow, longbow, repeating crossbow, shortbow, and favored weapon of her deity. Light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Honestly spending a feat on the sica (Extc Wpn Prof) seems lees productive than other choices(like shortsword which nets you gladius) or spending it on something like Dodge or a feat chain. I hate to say it but most deity weapons are not good choices.
The longbow and repeating crossbow stand out as excellent damage weapons with good ranges and both Dex based with the bow gaining a pump from Str.
For melee weapons;
Cestus - lgt|smpl|Med:1d4|19+ *2|B⊻P|Rng:--|, monk. Works well with your bad touches, if only you got Long Arm and Gravity Bow...
Dagger - lgt|smpl|Med:1d4|19+ *2|B⊻S|Rng:10|, see obsidian for lower cost.
Morningstar - 1hnd|smpl|Med:1d8|20 *2|B∧P|Rng:--|. A favorite.
Shortspear - 1hnd|smpl|Med:1d6|20 *2|P|Rng:20|.
Spear - 2hnd|smpl|Med:1d8|20 *3|P|Rng:20|, brace.
Longspear - 2hnd|smpl|Med:1d8|20 *3|P|Rng:--|, brace, reach.
If you don't plan to be a front line fighter I'd focus on one of the two ranged weapons and put my feats there; precise shot, point blank shot, etc.
Seems interesting and fun. You have a character who likes to go unnoticed if possible, but reads others quite well. The features all suggest a niche you can fill, give you useful actions to take in multiple encounter types, and all seem to support or influence your flavor choices. What help or advice are you wanting?
A few things, actually.
- In the case of the only full progress divine caster, is it truly worth it to take a 2nd lvl in monk MomS? Or the dip at all?
- (my bane often) Feats to best compliment a sneaky cleric. I've looked into hellcat stealth, shadow bloodline (through eldritch heritage).
I've often seen threads where people mention feats i'd never heard of before, or considered.
- Ways to mitigate that delayed casting handicap. The particular inquisition has a limited a/day means around it, but that comes at 8th lvl, +1 use every 4 levels of cleric thereafter. You can cast a spell, and have it go off on a delay when you have gotten into combat. (i'm looking at life savers like breath of life or a CCW, for example)
Azothath wrote:
For Inquisitor to focus your feat choices; 1) be a caster (metamagics), 2) choose DEX wpn or TwoWpnFighting and their feat chains, 3) reach weapons to trip and protect first rank (combat feats).
Feats: I'm not keen on weapon proficiency or skill focus. There are better more basic things to focus on at low level. If you need a weapon try a trait.
The skill focus is there as the base for the character. It has been a self preservation against harassment and potential persecution. (since a mutant who is a cleric to a chaotic madness deity, may not be seen as a favorable citizen by 'holier than thou' organizations, and those are present in the setting.)
We are limited to core classes, inquisitors are a no-go.
I tend not to enjoy multi-classing personally. I think if every character in terms of making it to level 20, and I'm enticed by capstones. My group is also comfortable playing gestalt. All that said, outside of massive forward jump games, I've never played past level 12.
Dipping into Monk is absolutely worth it if it fits your character concept. Since you might be in a 3pc party, diversifying your skills and class features or party roles can also be beneficial. If you're only worried about your spell progression, then you could take up to three levels of monk without cutting off access to 9th level spells, just be sure the delay is worth it in terms of when you access higher spells.
How common are magic item finds like potions, scrolls, and wands in your campaign? What level are you realistically going to play to? If you're going to dip into Monk, might it be worth it to go for four levels and get the Ki pool? Only you can answer that.
As for feats, I get overwhelmed too. I tend to go to the help sights and scroll through scanning for keywords. If you don't have time for that kind of obsessive behaviour, the feats you listed are still solid choices. Otherwise, I like to look at race or class specific feats. Unfortunately on the race side, while there are some fun SLA's to pick up, most Aasimar feats are about becoming a shiny angel with wings. I imagine that would crimp your stealthy style.
I have to confess, I overlooked the delayed casting bit. I'm not familiar with that rules variant. Does it only nerf divine casters, or does it apply to all casting? Does it apply to activated magic or spell completion items? Does it apply to spell like abilities (SLA's). Either way, seems casting becomes more about out of combat utility, dire contingency, or superior coordinated tactics at best. It does make the dip into Monk a better call, and your channeling becomes a tiny bit more relevant.
- (my bane often) Feats to best compliment a sneaky cleric. I've looked into hellcat stealth, shadow bloodline (through eldritch heritage).
I've often seen threads where people mention feats i'd never heard of before, or considered.
- Ways to mitigate that delayed casting handicap. The particular inquisition has a limited a/day means around it, but that comes at 8th lvl, +1 use every 4 levels of cleric thereafter. You can cast a spell, and have it go off on a delay when you have gotten into combat. (i'm looking at life savers like breath of life or a CCW, for example)
Azothath wrote:
For Inquisitor....
The skill focus is there as the base for the character. It has been a self preservation against harassment and potential persecution. (since a mutant who is a cleric to a chaotic madness deity, may not be seen as a favorable citizen by 'holier than thou' organizations, and those are present in the setting.)
We are limited to core classes, inquisitors are a no-go.
no problem - just Clandestine Inquisition->inquisitor advice which somewhat applies to cleric.
I referenced my Wiz-monk build as it is a monk caster multiclass. I don't think monk works as well with the more martial cleric (who doesn't have all the wizard tricks)
Stealthy Cleric of Madness (Rog 2, Clr 3):
yes - with multiclassing casting IS gonna suffer. Good thing clerics aren't that great with offensive casting and the campaign nerfing of casting time helps level the field.
Race: a corrupted aasimar-archon (for CON & WIS +2, skills) or aasimar-garuda (for DEX & WIS +2, SLA) & Scion of Humanity (gets rid of the garuda feathers). I'd keep the SLA in either case.
Ability scores 25 pt:[10,14,12{=10+2},14,18{=16+2},14] produces a more social character.
Traits:
1) Innocent(aasimar) +5 Bluff[believable, unlikely] or Wary(aasimar) +1 Disgs, Sns Mtv.
2) Magical Knack (for multiclassing) or Deft Dodger(+1 trt Rflx).
opt 3) Magical Lineage or Wayang Spellhunter and then drawback.
Class Rogue-Chameleon (snk atk, misdirection(Ex)(stealth pool)x~trapfinding~x. ) Lvls: 1, 2 (or 2,3). see Rouge-Swashbuckler for weapon prof, Rogue-Poisoner for poison use.
Prof: smpl wpns, crssbow(hand), rapier, sap, shtbow, shtswd, lgt armr.
ClsSkls(6+INT): Acro 2, Appr, Bluff 2{+5}, Clmb, Crft (alchemy) 2, Diplo 1, Dis Dev, Disgs 1, Esc Art, Intmd 1, Knw(dngn, locl), Ling (tian/kellish/azlanti(covert lang)) 1, Prof(), SnsMtv 2, SlgtHnd 2, Stlth 2, Swim, UMD. {all the skills you want and better wpns} Operate with shortbow, sap, 2 obsid daggers{throw} then get mw cold iron gladius(shtswd) asap. Lthr armor and buckler.
There is no problem with using a Cleric to do Inquisitor things. A Cleric with the right build can easily give an Inquisitor a run for its money while still being a 9th level caster. In fact, a Cleric with levels in Gray Gardener is practically a Cleric/Inquisitor gestalt, but I don't think your GM will let you use that prestige class if you're playing core classes only and playing a custom setting. On that note, you may want to ask your GM what the limitations on prestige classes are, because I would strongly contemplate using the Veiled Illusionist prestige class to improve your spell list with a lot of illusion spells (so not just Invisibility but also stuff like Shadow Conjuration/Evocation/Enchantment).
As for your 2 level Monk dip, it's frankly horrible. If you must do a level dip, I'd sooner recommend 1 level of Freebooter + TrapperRanger for trapfinding since you're taking on the party Rogue role. If your GM lets you take the Trap Finder campaign trait, there is no point to this dip either though.
However, you could, instead of playing a Cleric, play a Nature Fang Druid and obtain the Trapfinding Slayer Talent (which gives fullblown trapfinding, trap sense, and disable device as a class skill). If you obtain the Herbalism bond as your nature bond, you can easily be an effective healer through making a large amount of free Cure Light Wounds and Cure Moderate Wounds concoctions. Note that items like potions, wands, and scrolls can be made at any caster level. It is simply the norm to purchase them at the lowest possible caster level because they are cheapest that way, but you can make and purchase such items at full caster level, and that means that the Druid's free concoctions can be made at full caster level. Nature Fang Druids make very good Rogue and Ranger substitutes, to be honest, although the sneak attack will be lacking (Accomplished Sneak Attacker can raise it by another 1d6 and the Crocodile domain can give you a bit more if you really must, but relying on sneak attacks is a pain anyway so I don't really recommend it).
The Fast Learner feat is also generally regarded as a pretty lousy one (especially if you are going to take a prestige class) and strictly inferior to just taking a Toughness or Cunning feat while putting your favored class bonus in the other. Unless you've already taken both of those feats or intend to take the Improvisation feat, there really isn't a good reason to take Fast Learner.
I'm also not sure why you opted to have 14 strength and 14 dexterity, and I'd sooner play a Garuda-blooded (+2 dex, +2 wis) or Archon-blooded (+2 con, +2 wis) variant of Aasimar. This build does not seem like it will be any good in melee combat, to be honest, and if you want to double as a Rogue, probably you should just dump strength and do a Weapon Finesse build (if you want to fight), since dex will help your stealth, disable device, reflex, initiative, AC, etc. You'll do bad damage until you can afford a +1 agile weapon, but you can just use a crossbow or throw tanglefoot bags at enemies in a pinch.
There is no problem with using a Cleric to do Inquisitor things. A Cleric with the right build can easily give an Inquisitor a run for its money while still being a 9th level caster. In fact, a Cleric with levels in Gray Gardener is practically a Cleric/Inquisitor gestalt, but I don't think your GM will let you use that prestige class if you're playing core classes only and playing a custom setting. On that note, you may want to ask your GM what the limitations on prestige classes are, because I would strongly contemplate using the Veiled Illusionist prestige class to improve your spell list with a lot of illusion spells (so not just Invisibility but also stuff like Shadow Conjuration/Evocation/Enchantment).
As for your 2 level Monk dip, it's frankly horrible. If you must do a level dip, I'd sooner recommend 1 level of Freebooter + TrapperRanger for trapfinding since you're taking on the party Rogue role. If your GM lets you take the Trap Finder campaign trait, there is no point to this dip either though.
However, you could, instead of playing a Cleric, play a Nature Fang Druid and obtain the Trapfinding Slayer Talent (which gives fullblown trapfinding, trap sense, and disable device as a class skill). If you obtain the Herbalism bond as your nature bond, you can easily be an effective healer through making a large amount...
The PC isn't needed as a rogue substitute. Another has thankfully joined, and actually is a rogue. In regard to the strength, with the spell handicap (which only applies to divine casters in the setting) i feel taking an occasional swing at something is bound to happen. It seems to me every bit of landing a hit helps, particularly if flanking with our rogue or (hopefully frontliner) mystery PC.
Sysryke wrote:
How common are magic item finds like potions, scrolls, and wands in your campaign? What level are you realistically going to play to? If you're going to dip into Monk, might it be worth it to go for four levels and get the Ki pool? Only you can answer that.
As for feats, I get overwhelmed too. I tend to go to the help sights and scroll through scanning for keywords. If you don't have time for that kind of obsessive behaviour, the feats you listed are still solid choices. Otherwise, I like to look at race or class specific feats. Unfortunately on the race side, while there are some fun SLA's to pick up, most Aasimar feats are about becoming a shiny angel with wings. I imagine that would crimp your stealthy style.
I have to confess, I overlooked the delayed casting bit. I'm not familiar with that rules variant. Does it only nerf divine casters, or does it apply to all casting? Does it apply to activated magic or spell completion items? Does it apply to spell like abilities (SLA's). Either way, seems casting becomes more about out of combat utility, dire contingency, or superior coordinated tactics at best. It does make the dip into Monk a better call, and your channeling becomes a tiny bit more relevant.
Magic items are, afaik, available for purchase just the same. Those are thankfully not subject to delayed casting. So a scroll of [insert standard action spell] works like normal.
I generally find trying to hit things with an ability score lower than 16 to be a bad idea, but it can be done so long as you improve your attack bonus. In that case, I recommend using improvised melee weapons so you can use the Surprise Weapon combat trait for a +2 attack bonus. If you want you can also add the Fate's Favored faith trait for another +1 attack and damage any time you cast Divine Favor. Sledgehammers in particular are good improvised weapons, as they do 2d6 damage, but they don't have reach and as two-handed weapons, you cannot use a shield with them. If you want reach with an improvised weapon, you'll probably have to use a ten-foot pole or something.
Since you already have a Rogue in the party, you might want to switch the inquisition for another domain. And on that note, remember that you can always prepare a lower level domain spell into a higher level domain slot (and with metamagic feats, if you like). Does the GM have any restrictions against prestige classes?
I generally find trying to hit things with an ability score lower than 16 to be a bad idea, but it can be done so long as you improve your attack bonus. In that case, I recommend using improvised melee weapons so you can use the Surprise Weapon combat trait for a +2 attack bonus. If you want you can also add the Fate's Favored faith trait for another +1 attack and damage any time you cast Divine Favor. Sledgehammers in particular are good improvised weapons, as they do 2d6 damage, but they don't have reach and as two-handed weapons, you cannot use a shield with them. If you want reach with an improvised weapon, you'll probably have to use a ten-foot pole or something.
Since you already have a Rogue in the party, you might want to switch the inquisition for another domain. And on that note, remember that you can always prepare a lower level domain spell into a higher level domain slot (and with metamagic feats, if you like). Does the GM have any restrictions against prestige classes?
Prestige classes are a lot of fun. When it comes to spellcasting, I heartily recommend the Veiled Illusionist prestige class. It only requires 1 feat, which is even a very useful feat, and advances spellcasting with all levels. If you do, I pretty much recommend grabbing all the Shadow Evocation, Shadow Conjuration, and Shadow Enchantment spells there are (even Shades, if you delay a Veiled Illusionist level until 17th) and Psychic Asylum too, since it lets you prepare a spell into an empty slot as a swift action. You can also pick up stuff like Invisibility, Shadow Jaunt, and Phantasmal Killer depending on what you want. And on top of all that you get a superior version of Disguise Self and a bunch of useful perks for free. It's just easy to enter and gives you a lot of good spells.
If you want to use up a lot of feats, Pathfinder Savant is a pretty good class too, since you can get all kinds of esoteric spells that way. The trouble is that you will probably want to spend 2 extra feats (Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster) to fix the missing level, so that's 4 feats total. But if you love using scrolls and making UMD checks, it's great. And the real power of that prestige class comes from adding really strong spells (like Alchemical Allocation) to your spell list or using it to add spells that are already on your spell list from another class that gets it at a lower level so you can cast them sooner.
There is also the Loremaster for Secret of Magical Discipline feats, but this takes 4 feats just to enter and then probably the rest of your feats will be lots and lots of Secret of Magical Discipline. But hey, it works, and it's a very strong feat. With your int you'd even benefit from the Loremaster class features. For a Cleric this usually works much better if you are a plain Human or Half-Elf (for the bonus Skill Focus) and/or have the Rune domain (for the free Scribe Scroll feat).
If your GM is providing Obedience boons for your deities, Exalted is usually a good prestige class too since it gives you a 3rd domain and a lot of spell-like abilities in addition to boons, and it only takes 1 feat to enter.
Other than that all I can think of is Mystic Theurge? I don't think you want to do this though. It's actually not bad if you get a lot of Lesser Spell Synthesis feats which let you cast two spells at the same time, but you have to rebuild your character a bit for this class and your spellcasting will fall behind by 3 levels. There's an Aasimar variant that gets +2 int and +2 wis, so you could do a build that starts with both 18 wis and 18 int for a Wizard+Cleric theurge.
By the way, now that you have a rogue, I recommend taking a second domain instead of the Clandestine inquisition if you can. An extra domain can give you a lot of good spells.
If your GM lets you take deity-specific prestige classes by filing off the names, Stargazer and Brewkeeper are pretty good also (but Brewkeeper is 3 feats, because you will want Prestigious Spellcaster again).
