So in my spare time, I've been generating a new setting tied to a very revised version of PF1 rules of my own homebrewing. The rough gist is I am trying to keep the core chassis of the OGL/PRD-based system but strip away a lot of D&D-specific tropes for a different, but still-adventure-fantasy feel. All new races, all new classes. One of the things I've been toying with is what I want to do with the magic system, and trying to get away from Vancian casting and its 3.x descendants.
I also want to avoid as much as possible things like point pools to fuel class abilities (like ki or panache or what have you).
Before I continue: the likelihood anyone but me will ever see this world or revised PF1 homebrew in anything close to a finished form is about 0.01%. Nonetheless, as I toy with this for my own amusement, I'm curious to see what others opine about some of this. Just know that you are participating in little more than a thought exercise for the most part, and I may just be using this whole post to brainstorm in public for no particularly useful reason.
Anyway: magic systems in this not-Pathfinder. I want to vastly strip down and simplify how magical abilities work. Magical abilities mean attacks and effects that are not the result of someone using a weapon or tool, but transforming some internal energy into a temporary effect. Tossing a fire bolt or creating a puddle of water or healing an amount of damage by simply touching someone.
These are the criteria for what I want magic to do:
- Keep any sort of "spell" to be something that could easily fit in readable print on a small index card. Not a lot of contingencies and permutations.
- Rather than have an infinite possibility for what magic might do, and in turn therefore emulate any other ability or skill, limit magic to a few effects, including, but not necessarily limited to dealing damage (of various types), healing damage and afflictions, simple buffs/debuffs (boosting or lowering AC or saving throws, etc.), and simple evocation/conjuration of simple objects/elements (e.g., creating water). Simple divination (is this thing magic? Is it poisonous? Etc.) is fine too. (I reserve the right to add to this as I think of it). I am undecided about mental effects like charming or mindreading.
- Magic always gets to do *something,* but it can never be an instant win button. So a failed saving throw can't instantly kill or or make such a significant change that suddenly the course of the entire adventure changes, but a success on a saving throw doesn't mean a spell is completely wasted. For example, if an elementalist can throw a lighting bolt at someone, the lightning bolt can potentially both damage and daze the target. A failed save means lots of damage and the daze affliction. A successful save means less damage and no daze affliction--but it still did something.
- Not be part of a super lengthy list of spells that can get unwieldy.
So it came to me that rather than write up spells and spell lists, to make magical abilities purely class abilities. So, for example, we might have an elementalist class that has, as a class ability, a standard bolt throwing ability that improves every other level or so. It also has a variety of "talents" (that work similar to hexes or mysteries) to do other relevant elemental stuff (in other words, a class similar to the kineticist, but where each class ability isn't 10 pages long and you don't need a master's degree in math to understand how it works). All abilities are basically spell-like abilities (maybe with a sprinkling of supernatural). I'm *thinking* all abilities would have a certain number of uses per day (where "day" means "adventuring day" or, to use a D&D5 idea, "before a long rest").
My questions--to anyone who is still reading at this point and actually cares about what I'm asking and doesn't just want to nitpick at my comment about the kineticist or tell me just that this whole idea is terrible with little elaboration--are:
- Understanding everything is just "Cast per day" without a lot of levels and spell slots, how often should abilities be used per day?
-- How should the uses per day be determined? Casting modifier + level? Half level?
- How many different abilities should they roughly have in their arsenal per level. Like a first level magical class might only have a basic attack and protection, two effects. By 20th level should they have a potential of 10 effects? 20? 40?
Any other thoughts? Is this just entirely silly? Would it be better to just stick to spell lists and spells per day? Why am I making more work for myself?
Thank you for coming to DQ's Ramble-a-thon 2000. Have a lovely day.
You should look at kineticists for inspiration. This is fairly close to what they are.
You should look at kineticists for inspiration. This is fairly close to what they are.
(in other words, a class similar to the kineticist, but where each class ability isn't 10 pages long and you don't need a master's degree in math to understand how it works)
I want something in broad concepts like the kineticist, but much easier to learn and play, and not pool-based or with weird annoying shit like burn. So while I can say, yes, look, there is a class that does this, I actually really f#**ing hate how that specific class works mechanically, so I am not going to get anything useful out of copying much of the class for my particular purposes.
Also, the kineticist is written and balanced to exist in a system alongside traditional spellcasters. I'm trying to come up with a system that has magic but no traditional spellcasters so the balance may come out different.
I'm thinking something more like witch hexes plus some added SLAs. I'm just not sure how many is enough.
But more than specific mechanical functions, I'm kind of wanting folks' thought on "is this even a good idea?" and "would a system with no spells but still magic abilities assigned to class be even interesting or should I just go back to spells and spell lists?"
I still think you could use the kineticist as a base. You just need to make some tweaks. Remove the nonlethal damage from burn. You would still be capped on burn per day. Lower the BAB and hit die to wizard level.
Don't pathfinder tried to change the spell Sistem by using the spell words Sistem I think that Sistem work except that it still need some more work
As for an idea of mine I have this system I tried to create is based in the epic handbook of dnd3.5 rather than using spell slots and other stuff to calculate the DC/spell lvl/etc... You use your spellcraft skill to manifest such spell for example magic missile you need 12 in the spell craft check (10 of base lvl 0 + 2 for being a lvl 1 spell for every 4 you put in the DC you increase the effect of the spell (16 for 2 missile, 20 for 3 missile and so on)
I still think you could use the kineticist as a base. You just need to make some tweaks. Remove the nonlethal damage from burn. You would still be capped on burn per day. Lower the BAB and hit die to wizard level.
I appreciate your trying to help, and I am not making this clear: I am too stupid to understand the kineticist and/or I find it too complicated to accomplish what I want to accomplish. Like I can't wrap my head around the burn mechanic at all, let alone be able to modify it in an intelligent way. So I would prefer to start from scratch. But thank you.
Aside from those, to make something like what you suggest work, it seems the flavor and mechanics of each magical class would need to be more heavily intermeshed than standard Pathfinder classes. The combination of types of magical effects, sources of magic, and intended application would need to be quite distinct.
Depending on the amount of magical focus out of each class, I would say three to five magical abilities for a pure magic class. Have one or two scale with leveling, one or two hit milestone thresholds a few times over the course of twenty levels, and the one or two just be basic staples of the class. Add expanded or new abilities to taste using the bloodlines, domains, mysteries, spirits, schools, etc. class features as a benchmark.
Thank you, this is helpful. And yes, I think you're right that each magic-using class should have a number of distinctions. It would be too easy to cookie cutter the classes and that would somewhat eliminate the point of them. All the classes, magic, utility, or physical damage focused, need to have a reason to exist on their own.
I have wanted magic to work like this for quite some time; I feel like a lot of gameable magic can be boiled down into a few base effects.
Unfortunately, the best I can do is encourage you to look at 3rd party offerings to see if any of their variant systems can suggest mechanics to you. Freely available ones include:
* Spheres of Power: http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/
* Akashic: http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/akashic-mysteries
* Pact Magic: http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pact-magic
* Strange Magic: http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/strange-magic
* Invocations: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/invocations/
Thank you for putting this list in one place! I knew there were some alt systems out there but wasn't sure where to start.
If you are looking for different types of spell casters, you could look up the Warlock from DND 3.5.
https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/baseCarc/warlock.html
They had an eldritch blast ability that could blast things for 1d6 damage, and could be used an unlimited number of times per day. They also got invocations which were basically unlimited use per day spells. Some invocations could improve the effects of the eldritch blast.
Goodness, I didn't even think about looking at the 3.x warlock, but that makes a lot of sense.
Thanks all!
I won't try to push the kineticist anymore, but I feel like my suggestion was probably sufficient for changing it, which was to just drop the nonlethal damage portion of burn but also lower the BAB and Hit Dice to wizard levels.
Forgetting about kineticist, I guess you have to decide how "spammable" you want spells to be. Spells are limited per day by slots and spells known. Do you want all casters to know all spells? Should some or all spells be limited in how many times they can be used per day? Are you concerned about infinite healing when out of combat?
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I'll just say that this sounds like the main reason I'm not a fan of sphere's of power. As a caster I am very much a wizard style rather than sorcerer style player. I want that versatility to shape my magic to a wide range of effects not be limited to just fire power, water power, healing power, potion power. It's just not what I want to play and to me it always feels more DC/marvel/anime super hero with your character having storm powers or super strength or shapeshifting rather than a wizard who can cast a spell to control the weather, clean their home, bring a toy to life.
My point being just remember in the event you do run it for people your players might also be wizard class rather than sorcerer class in their preferences.