| mehs |
The basic pricing formula seems to give out a punnet square:
Similar, on body x1?
Similar, not on body x.75, x.5,
Different, on body x1 x1.5
Different, not on body x1
The first one is what I'm confused about, as there are several Canon items like cloak of hedgemage, Featherscale cloak, eagle cape, etc, that are almost definitely using the "similar, on body" x1. It's also just implied to be a x1 by the lack of specific example, though by similar token, different, not in body is only addressed briefly as an aside and as a counterexample rather than being specifically addressed.
Is there sufficient evidence for it existing?
| OmniMage |
There is a bit of a learning curve. Yes, it is annoying that many magic items don't usually show the math of how their prices were determined.
The first rule is these are estimates. Don't expect them to be always right. Especially when the items mimic spells. Some spells are more valuable than others, and should be worth more or less based upon that. Effects, on the other hand, I try to follow more strictly.
Lets look at staves. The most expensive spell is at 100% price, the second is at 75%, and any later is 50%. You should keep in mind that no matter how many spells you add to a staff, you will only be able to cast 1 spell per turn (assuming all spells take a standard action to cast).
Lets look at the belt of physical perfection and headband of mental superiority. These add a +2, +4, or +6 bonus to 3 ability stats at the same time. Because of this, they are more expensive. A +2 enhancement bonus to a single ability score is 4000 gp, but adding another is 6000 gp (50% more), and adding a third is another 6000 gp. So you get bonuses to 3 ability scores for 4x the price.
In dnd 3.5, adding abilities to the wrong slot would increase the price by 50%. So eye glasses of giant's strength would be worth 50% more than a belt of giant strength. This was the result of the wrong result item needing to work harder to get the same effect.
Slotless items cost 2x as much, but don't take up slots. Ioun stones are good examples of this. If you were to apply any of them to a slotted item, you should cut the price in half.
Baba Yaga (a CR 30 boss) uses the slotless rule to wear an extra rings.
I don't agree on the pricing method for upgrading magic items. The book rules say that the cost of adding a new ability to an existing magic it is 1.5 the price of the new ability. This can lead to a player spending more than what the item is worth. This can dissuade players from trying to upgrade magic items.
Instead, I prefer the price to upgrade be the difference between the old item and the new one.
This is a bit much to spit out at once. If you still have questions, I'll try to answer them later.
| OmniMage |
The Cloak of the Hedge Wizard (not hedgemage) totals to 2800 gp. Its listed as 2500 gp, so it must have been reduced.
It has 2 lv1 spells that can be used once per day, so each are worth 400 gp. It also has 2 cantrips can be used at-will, each are worth 1000 gp.
My math is for the level 1 spells is:
spell level * caster level * 2000 gp * charges per day (1 / 5).
So 1*1*2000/5/1 = 400 gp
My math is for the level 0 spells is:
spell level * caster level * 2000 gp * unlimited charges per day (1).
So 0.5*1*2000*1 = 1000 gp
So 1000 + 1000 + 400 + 400 is 2800 gp.
... maybe it'd cost less if I used command word instead of continious or use activated... redid math and I get 2520 gp.
| OmniMage |
Featherscale Cloak is a bit odd. Feather fall and hide from animals are both level 1 spells, so each are worth 400 gp. A +5 bonus to swim is worth 2500 gp (5*5*100 gp). Beast shape is a lv3 spell, so casting it once per day is worth 6000 gp, which is more the magic item is priced as. The total would be 9300 gp. The designer must have lowered the price, possibly because you can only take the shape of a bird or fish.
I'm not sure if I should raise the prices for the level 1 spells because the item has a CL of 5. Each of them would then be worth 2000 gp each. The total then would be 12500 gp, so I'm pretty sure the designer lowered the price by more than a third. Must have thought they would buy something else than the item at that price.
| OmniMage |
Eagle Cape
Feather fall - at will: 2000 gp
Beast shape 1 (eagle only) - 1/day: 6000 gp
+5 bonus on perception (in eagle form only): 2500 gp
In addition to that, it gives a fly speed of 80 when using beast shape 1, which is normally limited to fly 30. I would be tempted to raise the price because of that. I would lower the price of the skill bonus because its limitations.
Total: 10500 gp.
However, its priced at 7000 gp, so maybe the designer thought the item a lower price to be worth buying.
| TxSam88 |
I don't agree on the pricing method for upgrading magic items. The book rules say that the cost of adding a new ability to an existing magic it is 1.5 the price of the new ability. This can lead to a player spending more than what the item is worth. This can dissuade players from trying to upgrade magic items.Instead, I prefer the price to upgrade be the difference between the old item and the new one.
it's only 50% extra for oddities like combining items.
When upgrading a +1 item to a +2 item, you pay the flat difference
Name Violation
|
Think it's It's 1.5 x the cost of the 2nd most expensive ability when combining abilities, even retroactively.
I think there was a James Jacobs post about this a decade or so back calling out you always price it the cheapest way and sometimes the upgrade maker gets shafted from a potential obscene profit, but them's the breaks
So you have a 2k item. You wanna add a 4k ability. It cost a total of 7k. 4k {most expensive} + 3k {2nd most expensive +50%}
| mehs |
Eagle Cape
Feather fall - at will: 2000 gp
Beast shape 1 (eagle only) - 1/day: 6000 gp
+5 bonus on perception (in eagle form only): 2500 gpIn addition to that, it gives a fly speed of 80 when using beast shape 1, which is normally limited to fly 30. I would be tempted to raise the price because of that. I would lower the price of the skill bonus because its limitations.
Total: 10500 gp.
However, its priced at 7000 gp, so maybe the designer thought the item a lower price to be worth buying.
The beast shape being restricted to certain animals is an ad hoc restriction with an unknown price reduction. Oh and note it's beast shape as the spell plus the restriction of eagles only, so you only get 30 ft fly speed. Instead I calced the other two abilities, ring of feather fall and eyes of the eagle with the "50% increase for different abilities", and it came out to ~7000 right there with no room for the beast shape no matter what the price reduction was. Whereas if you calc them as similar abilities, you still have room for some ad hoc discount for the beast shape only turning you into a single specific animal.
For cloak of the hedge mage, I calced them as use activated. The 1800 vs 2000, which brings it to 2,520, within rounding range, etc.
| mehs |
Featherscale Cloak is a bit odd. Feather fall and hide from animals are both level 1 spells, so each are worth 400 gp. A +5 bonus to swim is worth 2500 gp (5*5*100 gp). Beast shape is a lv3 spell, so casting it once per day is worth 6000 gp, which is more the magic item is priced as. The total would be 9300 gp. The designer must have lowered the price, possibly because you can only take the shape of a bird or fish.
I'm not sure if I should raise the prices for the level 1 spells because the item has a CL of 5. Each of them would then be worth 2000 gp each. The total then would be 12500 gp, so I'm pretty sure the designer lowered the price by more than a third. Must have thought they would buy something else than the item at that price.
The feather fall and hide from animals is only the user rather than the 5 people they could normally affect.
Calcing them as effectively level 1, caster level 1, if they were being priced as different abilities, then that's 600+600+3750=4,950, which leaves no room for the beast shape no matter the price discount. It's more of a proof by contradiction that no matter what ad hoc discounts there are on these items, they can't be using the "different, on body" penalty and are instead using a "similar, on body" x1. The arguement I am running on is that the books care more about if the abilities are similar thematically rather than statistically. Bonus to str and dex are similar gameplay wise, but different thematically because dnd was based on archetypes of dex=rogue, str=fighter, etc. Whereas the cloaks all give abilities very much within eagle stuff, novice wizard stuff, gozreh nature stuff.
| Reksew_Trebla |
OmniMage wrote:Eagle Cape
Feather fall - at will: 2000 gp
Beast shape 1 (eagle only) - 1/day: 6000 gp
+5 bonus on perception (in eagle form only): 2500 gpIn addition to that, it gives a fly speed of 80 when using beast shape 1, which is normally limited to fly 30. I would be tempted to raise the price because of that. I would lower the price of the skill bonus because its limitations.
Total: 10500 gp.
However, its priced at 7000 gp, so maybe the designer thought the item a lower price to be worth buying.
The beast shape being restricted to certain animals is an ad hoc restriction with an unknown price reduction. Oh and note it's beast shape as the spell plus the restriction of eagles only, so you only get 30 ft fly speed. Instead I calced the other two abilities, ring of feather fall and eyes of the eagle with the "50% increase for different abilities", and it came out to ~7000 right there with no room for the beast shape no matter what the price reduction was. Whereas if you calc them as similar abilities, you still have room for some ad hoc discount for the beast shape only turning you into a single specific animal.
For cloak of the hedge mage, I calced them as use activated. The 1800 vs 2000, which brings it to 2,520, within rounding range, etc.
This is flat out false. A spell that normally has more options never gets reduced in price for losing those options. Look at every item that has Endure Elements, but ONLY towards heat OR cold, not both. They still have the full cost of the spell, despite the fact that you are only benefiting from half of the spell
| mehs |
mehs wrote:This is flat out false. A spell that normally has more options never gets reduced in price for losing those options. Look at every item that has Endure Elements, but ONLY towards heat OR cold, not both. They still have the full cost of the spell, despite the fact that you are only benefiting from half of the spellOmniMage wrote:Eagle Cape
Feather fall - at will: 2000 gp
Beast shape 1 (eagle only) - 1/day: 6000 gp
+5 bonus on perception (in eagle form only): 2500 gpIn addition to that, it gives a fly speed of 80 when using beast shape 1, which is normally limited to fly 30. I would be tempted to raise the price because of that. I would lower the price of the skill bonus because its limitations.
Total: 10500 gp.
However, its priced at 7000 gp, so maybe the designer thought the item a lower price to be worth buying.
The beast shape being restricted to certain animals is an ad hoc restriction with an unknown price reduction. Oh and note it's beast shape as the spell plus the restriction of eagles only, so you only get 30 ft fly speed. Instead I calced the other two abilities, ring of feather fall and eyes of the eagle with the "50% increase for different abilities", and it came out to ~7000 right there with no room for the beast shape no matter what the price reduction was. Whereas if you calc them as similar abilities, you still have room for some ad hoc discount for the beast shape only turning you into a single specific animal.
For cloak of the hedge mage, I calced them as use activated. The 1800 vs 2000, which brings it to 2,520, within rounding range, etc.
I'm having difficulty finding example of endure elements items that protect only from heat or cold that don't have so many odd effects that make pricing them hard. Can you provide some examples?
| Reksew_Trebla |
Reksew_Trebla wrote:I'm having difficulty finding example of endure elements items that protect only from heat or cold that don't have so many odd effects that make pricing them hard. Can you provide some examples?mehs wrote:This is flat out false. A spell that normally has more options never gets reduced in price for losing those options. Look at every item that has Endure Elements, but ONLY towards heat OR cold, not both. They still have the full cost of the spell, despite the fact that you are only benefiting from half of the spellOmniMage wrote:Eagle Cape
Feather fall - at will: 2000 gp
Beast shape 1 (eagle only) - 1/day: 6000 gp
+5 bonus on perception (in eagle form only): 2500 gpIn addition to that, it gives a fly speed of 80 when using beast shape 1, which is normally limited to fly 30. I would be tempted to raise the price because of that. I would lower the price of the skill bonus because its limitations.
Total: 10500 gp.
However, its priced at 7000 gp, so maybe the designer thought the item a lower price to be worth buying.
The beast shape being restricted to certain animals is an ad hoc restriction with an unknown price reduction. Oh and note it's beast shape as the spell plus the restriction of eagles only, so you only get 30 ft fly speed. Instead I calced the other two abilities, ring of feather fall and eyes of the eagle with the "50% increase for different abilities", and it came out to ~7000 right there with no room for the beast shape no matter what the price reduction was. Whereas if you calc them as similar abilities, you still have room for some ad hoc discount for the beast shape only turning you into a single specific animal.
For cloak of the hedge mage, I calced them as use activated. The 1800 vs 2000, which brings it to 2,520, within rounding range, etc.
There's the Scaling Item Crystal Tiara. At its starting version, it only has Endure Elements as an ability, but only towards cold climates, yet it has the full market price of 1,000 gp of the full spell being on it. I haven't looked much more than that, because I actually asked about that, here I think, and the consensus was that it was priced correctly.
EDIT: It actually seems like the consensus in that thread was to argue about physics and why it makes sense that additional/multiplied increases in healing effects have an exponential increase in price to make. Yeah, no wonder I stopped looking into it after that.
| mehs |
That is an odd example. Not familiar with scaling items. And that item is the basis for the agreement that reducing what a spell like ability can do isn't the basis for any discount the item has in pricing?
Because, looking at some of the other items, it seems like some funky pricing is going on with the scaling items. Forgemaster's gauntlets for example, give a +5 bonus to two different though related skills, which should be priced anywhere from 5,000 to 6,250, are instead priced as 3,750. Gorgeous gorget gives a +5 to three skills, priced at 5,000. The formula seems to only be doing half cost for abilities past the first?