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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fbyJd143D7eWxXARwVZyHjS61upvRxhMaPFHnTz HX-Y/edit
What do you think of my fighter build?
I was thinking that for a fighter to shine, a fighter needs to do something only a fighter can do. Dumping feats into one combat style starts having diminishing returns, but what if instead of grabbing one combat style you grabbed several?
Most combat styles take 3-5 feats to be effective. A fighter could grab several and give himself more viable combat options. He trades some effectiveness for being able to pick the most effective style for the situation.
Thoughts?
*bump*
*bump :(*
He seriously needs Quick Draw to take total advantage of his switch hitter abilities.
He seriously needs Quick Draw to take total advantage of his switch hitter abilities.
That's why he grabs it at level 1.
Ha! Totally missed it.
Dot, at work, will respond later.
Response happens now:
Things I notice and don't approve of are taking Combat Maneuver related feats, they simply aren't as effective as they should be/used to be. You probably can avoid the unarmed striking stuff, and can apply more feats to what you really want to do: be more versatile in combat with different kinds of weapons. Maneuvers like grappling do you little good when you are fighting a large dragon, or something with multiple arms.
Second thing that I don't like (and this may just be me) is the focus on Initiative. As the fighter, going first will lead to more problems than you think it fixes. You should always want to go after your caster/buffer because otherwise you have to wait for them to give you a buff and basically skip your turn (which is what you spend a trait and a feat on doing making them a waste) or you go in head first right into where your caster planned on throwing his party starter area spell and now he has to do something else that will be less effective. Good things come to those who wait, and with a moderate DEX you should still have an okay Initiative modifier to make sure you go ahead of the bad guys.
I also recommend nabbing some more melee related feats. Furious Focus, Dodge, and Mobility come to mind. Being maneuverable and being able to land a big hit are what make being a fighter so good, you keep your full speed in heavy armor, and that +5 dodge bonus to AC while moving is solid.
Put more into DEX, don't be afraid to drop CHA. Buying a 15 into both DEX and STR gives you a little more play room with your stats, especially since you plan on taking so many archery feats right out of the gate. 17 STR 15 DEX and 9 CHA is still respectable at lvl 1.
Skills can be spread out a bit too, you are a fighter, so you can actually spread out your extraneous skill ranks (outside of perception really) among your various class skills, so that you get your +3 bonus into each of them, past that if you can get your modifiers to like +10, you should be solid and much more versatile out of combat. Intimidate is also very useful, even if you don't take the feat chain for it.
I still like the notion of picking up Weapon Focus and Specialization on both of the weapon types you are using. Obviously you plan on using a Bow, and you can pick a melee weapon also, most likely the Greatsword or Falchion. Don't bother with the greater versions unless you have feats to burn, but getting half of both feat chains still makes you a very good switch hitter.
As far as traits go. Defender of the Society is at the top of the want list for me, but there are plenty of options. You could pick another skill to grab as a class skill, Knowledges are always useful.
Interesting response. Although I want to make a fighter that is more than just a switch hitter. I like to open up more combat options.
Rangers make better switch hitters anyways. I want to do something other classes can't.
The grapple feats are not for large dragons, they're for casters.
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If he's a human fighter have him take the Martial Versatility and Martial Mastery feats from the Advanced Races book. It allows him to apply feats that apply to a single weapon to apply to all the weapons in the same weapon group. Talk about versatility!
Second thing that I don't like (and this may just be me) is the focus on Initiative. As the fighter, going first will lead to more problems than you think it fixes. You should always want to go after your caster/buffer because otherwise you have to wait for them to give you a buff and basically skip your turn (which is what you spend a trait and a feat on doing making them a waste) or you go in head first right into where your caster planned on throwing his party starter area spell and now he has to do something else that will be less effective. Good things come to those who wait, and with a moderate DEX you should still have an okay Initiative modifier to make sure you go ahead of the bad guys.
Alternatively, pick up the Opening Volley feat. After you hit with a ranged attack, you get a +4 bonus on your next melee attack. So go first and fire your bow, then you get buffed, then you charge into melee with a huge bonus.
I was thinking that for a fighter to shine, a fighter needs to do something only a fighter can do. Dumping feats into one combat style starts having diminishing returns, but what if instead of grabbing one combat style you grabbed several?
Most combat styles take 3-5 feats to be effective. A fighter could grab several and give himself more viable combat options. He trades some effectiveness for being able to pick the most effective style for the situation.
First, I agree with your two premises: a fighter should be built do so something fighters are good at, having enough feats to master multiple styles of combat is something a fighter excels at.
Ability Scores STR: 18 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
These are perfectly good ability scores for a multi-specialty combatant.
Bow: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Far Shot, Deadly-Aim, Clustered Shots
Having ranged combat as a strong option is a great idea. I'd skip Far Shot because it's not very useful, but aside from that I like this part.
Unarmed: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple
Grappling is a fun option to have, and you can master it with three feats. Overall, a good choice.
Melee: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Step-Up
Power Attack is excellent, and definitely the right choice at first level.
Combat Reflexes by itself is rarely useful without a reach weapon, and Step-Up doesn't work well with reach because it requires an adjacent foe. The Step-Up chain really shines once you have all three because it grants an attack. I suggest choosing a weapon, reach or non-reach, and choosing feats that go with it. Without reach, learn Step-Up, Following Step, Step-Up and Strike. With reach, consider Combat Reflexes.
Generic bonuses: Quick Draw, Toughness, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Run, Deflect Arrows
Run will rarely come up in play, especially since you have a good ranged-combat option.
Deflect Arrows only works when you have a hand free, which is a waste of a hand.
Quick Draw, Toughness, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative These are all reasonable feats.
Improvised Weapons: Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything, Improvised Weapon Mastery
Crap, total crap, and utter crap. Improvised weapons suck, and by the time you take any of these feats most of your enemies will be immune to non-magic weapons.
Deflect arrows works when your using a two-handed weapon.
Things like run and improvised weapons are things I picked up because I ran out of feats to get. I'm trying to avoid mounted combat. Any other combat styles out there?
Step-up is an anti-caster feat. Combat Reflexes is for the extra AOOs needed to make that work.
*Bump* I need ideas for feat. I want lots of small feat chains not really large feat chains.
Deflect arrows works when your using a two-handed weapon.
Right! I forgot about the "hold in one hand, hit with two" ruling.
Step-up is an anti-caster feat. Combat Reflexes is for the extra AOOs needed to make that work.
I still suggest taking Following Step & Step-Up and Strike.
Things like run and improvised weapons are things I picked up because I ran out of feats to get. I'm trying to avoid mounted combat. Any other combat styles out there?
Improved Dirty Trick, Greater Dirty Trick
Bodyguard, In Harm's WayIron Will, Improved Iron Will
Lunge (not a chain, but better than Run)
Feats I would drop from your original plan:
Run- It's not that useful and you have a bow if they try to run away.
Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything, Improvised Weapon Mastery- Improvised weapons are not that good and you have IUS if you get caught without your normal weapon.
Improved Initiative- As a fighter you really don't want to go first, you want to go after your buffer/battle field control but before the bad guys. I'd probably keep reactionary, that and your dex should keep you going in the middle where you want to be.
Precise Shot, Far shot- Precise Shot is pretty worthless to you, you should be in melee and not shooting in to it. Far shot is only useful in rare situations, I'd use the feat on something you'll need more often.
Things I'd think about adding/changing:
Lunge- It's a good feat for fighting things with reach. I'd pick it up somewhere
Improved grapple/greater grapple-Combat Maneuvers tend to fall off at higher levels and you aren't picking these up until late. If you want to use these I would move things around to get them early where it will be more useful. If you are thinking about combat maneuvers I'd recommend a 1-2 level dip in to maneuver master monk. It gives you your feats, improved unarmed fighting and better saves. Best of all you can make a free maneuver on every full attack at -2 (-1 really, monk level counts as 1 bab) on the maneuver. I would also recommend Dirty Trick over grapple. Dirty trick is much more versatile than grappling and doesn't leave you tied up. Entangled and deafened work well against casters and sickened and shaken help soften up harder targets while providing you better defense (-2 on attack rolls each) I would start with a level of fighter then dip at level 2-3 to get the maneuvers at the level where they are most effective.
If you're not interested in going the maneuver route I'd suggest picking up a 4 levels of rogue (thug/scout)to add conditions on to your attacks.
If you take corugan smash and furious focus you would be able to charge and make a 2 handed power attack that sickens the enemy and makes him roll to be demoralized and shaken. It also nets you some extra skill points and sneak attack dice when you're flanking. Combat would go like this: See enemy at range, shoot arrows until they close, when they get to intermediate range drop bow and charge making them sickened and demoralized, next round they are softened up so you make a full attack that destroys them.
Typing this up I now want to create a character that is 1 Monk (maneuver master)/ Rogue 4 (thug/scout)/ Fighter 15 He's a half-orc who got kicked out of the monastery for fighting dirty and having no respect for his peers, he ends up on the streets enforcing for a crime lord before he turns his life around (i'm thinking the crime lord betrays him) now he's joined the city watch to try to make up for his past.
Feats I would drop from your original plan: Run, Improved Initiative, Precise Shot, Far shot
Things I'd think about adding/changing: Lunge, Dirty Trick
Your suggestions look a lot like mine. It's nice to be agreed with:)
Typing this up I now want to create a character that is 1 Monk (maneuver master)/ Rogue 4 (thug/scout)/ Fighter 15
What is the monk level for?
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What is really needed is a REAL Feat tree, or perhaps I should say "Bring us a SHRUBERY!"
I want a visual, interlocking network showing all of the pre-reg feats and ability scores for all the Feats. Realistically, there could be several trees (Comabt Feats, Magic Feats, Teamwork Feats, etc.).
Also, there are several "stand-alone" Feats that aren't part of any Feat sequence (like Toughness).
There are some intersections to these tree branches (which is why I said "SHRUBERY").
I think that it is these "intersections" that Markthus is looking for to build his "Versatile Fighter".
This is why we need a roadmap of the Feats, to help pick up the correct pre-req. Feats early in the character's development to achieve the desired overall effect at higher levels. After all, some people really like the sounds of Whirlwind Attack, but don't know where to start building the ZFeat sequence.
Most of the time these map routes will be a single point, or a straight line progression, sometimes it will fork, and sometimes it will form rings. Sort of like the skill path star maps in Skyrim, except in Pathfinder, sometimes they overlap.
We're looking for those times where 2 different patterns cross, so that we can reduce the total number of Feats required to complete both sequences.
Anyone know where I can find such a SHRUBERRY? Maybe with some kind of two-tiered look?
"Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Know what I mean? - Monty Python's Flying Circus
See I'm trying to create a build where every feat is used during combat.
I want feats needed to fight at range and melee.
Additionally I want more options on top of that that are effective. Grappling is great against those squishy caster types.
Improvised weapons, I agree, are bad. The only reason I picked them up was for the surprise RP element.
Right now, I want feats that add more combat styles and options.
Feats I would drop from your original plan: Run, Improved Initiative, Precise Shot, Far shot
Things I'd think about adding/changing: Lunge, Dirty TrickYour suggestions look a lot like mine. It's nice to be agreed with:)
Typing this up I now want to create a character that is 1 Monk (maneuver master)/ Rogue 4 (thug/scout)/ Fighter 15What is the monk level for?
A free maneuver every full attack. Since it can be Dirty trick I'd be able to stack conditions. On a full attack I could use dirty trick, corugan smash and brutal beating to stack sicken, shaken and blinded (or entangled, or deafened, or dazzled etc) That'd be a sum of
-4 on attack rolls
-4 on saving throws
-4 on skill checks (-8 on str and dex ones)
-4 ability checks
-2 to AC
- Dex to AC
50% concealment
DC 10 acrobatics to move or fall prone.
And I don't have to give up any weapon attacks to do it. My BAB would be 2 lower than an equal level fighter but gloves of dueling would make up for that.