I mean, you did mention earlier about action economy - triggering the reaction eats 0.5-1.5 actions from the enemy (.5 if the only thing that mattered was the DR, 1.5 if it eats the follow-up via Enfeebled, the free step or dead), and if they also had to stride to do so, well, that's their turn. If there's a second enemy, well, you have to pick your moment. But that's true of tanking in general, there's very few game with consequence-free ways to draw all attacks on you. Not even 4e could do that.
Yeah, that's I generally see champion. It's much more about creating action inefficiencies for enemies than it is about "tanking," to me.
I'd like to thank you all foi r the partecipation, i'm tempted to play a champion for a following game but everytime i think about It i see nothing but problems.
-i get no progression, It gets boring when you basically gain NOTHING of value inbetween level 1 and 7 (1 to 6 feats suck and everything you Need Is already given at level 1)
-i wanna be a tank and play Someone big with a shield but now shield Champions get basically nothing for being shield Champions (worst remastered change ever, if i wanna play something i Will be able to spend Gold for It)
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Tanks don't exist in most fantasy TTRPGs.
Tanks don't exist in most fantasy MMOs and video games.
Tanks exist primarily in WW2 and later warfare wargames, video games, and MMOs.
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What I wrote above is pretty unhelpful. I'm going into the discussion with a definition of "tank" that isn't going to be met.
If you don't think that what a champion does at high levels is "tanking", that's fine- but then there's no reason to argue about champion not tanking well at low levels. The useful discussion would be, "Does a champion do at low levels what it does at high levels?"
What a holy-or-justice champion does is reduce damage coming at the party. It uses a reaction to reduce damage to allies, and it is harder to hit itself. The original post argues that until champion gets improved armor proficiency, it is essentially a weak point, because it's no more resilient than a fighter.
I would argue that being as resilient as a Fighter is enough. The extra point of AC from heavy armor means taking less damage than most (but not all) other classes, and the 10 HP base mean that there's almost certainly someone who would be less able to soak hits. The champion does their job better at later levels, sure, but I don't think it's fair to say that they don't do a good job of it at low levels.
-i get no progression, It gets boring when you basically gain NOTHING of value inbetween level 1 and 7 (1 to 6 feats suck and everything you Need Is already given at level 1)Blessed, a couple 'bonus to save' feats, auras, expansion of auras, a full reactive strike if you don't like how your champion's reaction is working. It seems like a pretty solid set of options to me.
i wanna be a tank and play Someone big with a shield but now shield Champions get basically nothing for being shield Champions (worst remastered change ever, if i wanna play something i Will be able to spend Gold for It)They get several abilities that buff the use of their shield - making it tougher and blocking more useful or buffing shields of the spirit.
But as someone else mentioned, there is no equivalent of 'aggro' in this TTRPG. Enemies can choose to attack whom the GM wants them to attack, and you have to use tactics (i.e. get in their way, with a reaction, or have your other party members move to unattackable positions) to prevent them from attacking other targets.
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If you are looking for aggro specifically, then the upcoming Guardian may be something you should look into. While it got mixed reviews on these fora during the playtest, it seems pretty clear Paizo was at least trying to give that class an "attack me not them, or suffer bad consequences" vibe.
I really dislike the Guardian, i regard Its whole class as the result of an hangover.
Tho, on the main point: the aura i could get reduces frightened, which Is usefull when it's usefull but also insanely situational, Attack of opportunity and bonus to saves are also (sadly) reactions! Which adds more "should i shield block or champion reactions" tò my problems. Like, nothing really "adds" tò my character, they give some situational stuff which Is cool but meh.
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I come to very different valuations of some of the stuff you don't like.
Blessed Shield: I'm always cautious about trading feats/features for money, but there IS a price point where it's a good trade. I think this one does hit that price point, since it's a permanent item that you want on top of the normal permanent items everyone wants, and you want it ASAP. This way, I don't have to choose between a Striking weapon and a sturdy shield, or the next sturdy shield and boots of binding, or a charm of energy resistance. All of which really help.
Feats: not all of the champion feats excite me, but there are enough that do. Nimble Reprisal is a no-brainer for a Justice champion, and Weight of Guilt is very interesting if you either have to fighter a caster (giving them chance of spells failing outright, and lowering the save DC for any spell they cast) or if your party has casters (lowering enemy will saves). Defensive Advance saves actions on your standard combat loop, so it's good too. Aura of Courage is good because things that cause Frightened are quite common.
Reactive Strike is interesting because at first it seems like it competes with shield block or your champion reaction. But actually it doesn't; it fills a gap they didn't cover.
- If the enemy attacks you, you shield block
- If they attack your front row buddy, you use a champion reaction
- If they try to get out of your aura you use reactive strike
Those reactions stack "sideways"; when you're using the one, you probably don't need the other that turn. But having all of them, you make it so that whatever the enemy does, isn't great for them. And for you, it means that it gets really likely that you get value out of your reaction every turn.
I'd like to thank you all foi r the partecipation, i'm tempted to play a champion for a following game but everytime i think about It i see nothing but problems.
-i get no progression, It gets boring when you basically gain NOTHING of value inbetween level 1 and 7 (1 to 6 feats suck and everything you Need Is already given at level 1)
-i wanna be a tank and play Someone big with a shield but now shield Champions get basically nothing for being shield Champions (worst remastered change ever, if i wanna play something i Will be able to spend Gold for It)
I would suggest going blessed swiftness at early levels, retrain later if you really want Blessed shield at higher levels. It gives a lot more to champion and allies early on.
The champ in my game also took the blessed one archtype at level 2 to have 2 focus points and both lay on hands and shield of spirits.At level 4 reach back to the level 1 feats, there are several good ones, you get to choose from a domain spell if you like the choices from your deity, if not desperate prayer, or defensive advance if you preferred your cause feat at level 1.
Another thing to think about is faithful steed. There are some unobvious and some uncertain gains from taking one.
The most obvious one is the movement speed while mounted and having an extra target with its own HP even if it cant take hits like you can.
But while mounted you now get to basically act like you are a large creature when determining what squares you can affect including justice reaction strikes. While mounted with nimble reprisal some interesting things happen. normally you can reach the 24 squares around you with a 5'' step from nimble reprisal but now that your striking from any of the mounts squares you can reach 32 squares.
Also call of the wild added a lot of mount choices to look at. I kind of like the elk with the justice cause.
How the aura works while mounted is iffy. I would see how your GM is going to rule it.
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While mounted with nimble reprisal some interesting things happen. normally you can reach the 24 squares around you with a 5'' step from nimble reprisal but now that your striking from any of the mounts squares you can reach 32 squares.
Uhm. With context clues, I am guessing you are referring to a melee Champion taking a Step as part of Nimble Reprisal. As such, none of the GMs in my circle would allow a Step while Mounted:
While mounted with nimble reprisal some interesting things happen. normally you can reach the 24 squares around you with a 5'' step from nimble reprisal but now that your striking from any of the mounts squares you can reach 32 squares.Uhm. With context clues, I am guessing you are referring to a melee Champion taking a Step as part of Nimble Reprisal. As such, none of the GMs in my circle would allow a Step while Mounted:
Generally, the Mount cannot Step unless the rider takes an action to command it to Step. No Champion's Reaction includes Command an Animal... It's the Champion's Reaction, so the Mount cannot act as part of it. The Champion is mounted and, therefore, cannot take Move actions of his own except to use the Mount action to dismount.
Your right. It doesn't work RAW.
I would probably house rule it to work so my players feat isnt nullified by choosing to use a mount though.Edit: not saying this to give the impression anyone else needs to do this.
But it would increase the squares for retributive strike without nimble reprisal at least.
Fabios, I think you're confusing the Champion's mechanical role with its narrative one. From its flavour text:
You are an emissary of a deity, a devoted servant who has taken up a weighty mantle, and you devoutly pursue a cause that holds you apart from those around you. You have powerful defenses that you share freely with your allies and innocent bystanders, as well as divine power you use to end the threats your deity opposes.
The Champion, from its flavour text, is clearly someone who pursues an ideal or a cause, and has defensive powers on top of it. But from a mechanical perspective, you're right: their starting AC isn't higher than anyone else's, and they can't draw attention to themselves.
But compare this to the playtest Guardian:
You are the shield, the steel wall that holds back the tide of deadly force exhibited by enemies great and small. You are clad in armor that you wear like a second skin. You can angle your armor to protect yourself and your allies from damage and keep foes at bay. You also make yourself a more tempting target to take the hits that might have otherwise struck down your companions.
Here it's clear that their narrative and mechanical roles align: you can taunt, have higher AC, and can reduce damage. Their entire deal is clearly tanking.
I'm not saying the Champion can't be a tank, because that's provably false, but I am saying that it isn't its main design goal. The Champion is more about preservation: Lay on Hands gives a quick boost, but isn't as good as a Heal spell. And its reaction is more about damage mitigation than damage prevention. Only later on does it really increase its defensive capabilities beyond those of other martials.
I think you're trying to fit a round peg (the idea of a tank) in a square hole (the Champion). Instead of trying to make it fit, it might be better to adjust your view and find the proper hole for your peg.
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To Captain Morgan (i feel cool, it'e like a debate on a journal or something, i get to put a title).
-i am ignoring everything the champion has because i am looking at lower levels and that's kinda the whole thing we're talking about y'know?
Literally everything I have mentioned in my two prior posts is low level.
Heavy armor proficiency
Shield block
Defensive Advance
Shield the Spirit or Lay on Hands
Reaction to to punish enemies for either attacking you (unholy) or attacking enemies (holy).
Deity's Domain
All those are available at level 1. At level 2, you can take whichever of those feats you didn't take at 1. At level 3 you can take blessed shield for an immediate boost to your shield where other classes would have to save up money for a sturdy shield after they get a striking weapon.
It feels like the actual problem is you don't like shields? You seem super dismissive of them. Which is fine I guess, but it makes it really hard to understand what you're expecting from tanking if you just ignore the equipment designed for tanking.