Post Somatic: Does Manipulate (yes / no) decide over gestures ? Or does _every_ spell require?


Rules Discussion


Briefly:
I'm a bit confused: Is the Manipulate trait - having or not having it - the decisive factor whether a spell requires gestures? Or does every spell require them, without exception?

More Details / background of the question + Remaster feedback:

We noticed that spell components got a remaster (in Player Core 1 (PC1)). Apparently it affected several aspects.
1) My favourite: In Legacy (CRB), there are nested layers of components / traits / rules. Most prominent example: "Somatic" components implying "Manipulate" -> triggering Reactions. We had to look up in critical moments, sometimes more than once. This was changed, luckily. The components in their previous form are gone; there is just the traits any more. Removing that layer of complexity will surely be making our game easier. Also the handling and wording of those item component sometimes needed (once called "focus component") was greatly simplified.
(See the legacy section on spell components CRB, pg. 303, Deeplink: AoN).

2) However, in the course of this, a change was introduced, that confuses us. In legacy, despite above-mentioned "nesting"-hassle, there seemed to be a clear designation: If a spell had somatic components, it implied gestures; I think it was a 1:1 relation. (Correct me, if I'm wrong.)
Now - with spell components being folded into traits - does this 1:1 relation still hold?

I'm wondering because there is two aspects in remaster which apparently point towards different directions:

a) We now got the Manipulate trait in the spell descriptions. (Again: Good to see at first glance.) I'll cite for convenience:

Player Core 1, pg. 458 wrote:

manipulate (trait)

You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait. Creatures without a suitable appendage can’t perform actions with this trait. Manipulate actions often trigger reactions.

(italics mine)

And, like somatic components in legacy, most spells indeed have that trait. At first glance it much seems as if manipulate simply replaced somatic as the indicator for having gestures.

However, I am not longer sure because …

b) In the section about Casting Spells we found more about the former components, incl. gestures, in the first paragraph:

Player Core 1, pg. 299 wrote:

Casting Spells

The casting of a spell can range from a simple word of magical might that creates a fleeting effect to a complex process taking hours to cast and producing a long-term impact. Casting a spell requires the caster to make gestures and utter incantations, so being unable to speak prevents spellcasting for most casters. If your character has a long- term disability that prevents or complicates them from speaking (as described in GM Core), work with the GM to determine an analogous way they cast their spells, such as tapping in code on their staff or whistling.

(italics mine)

Is this blanket form meant to be understood strictly, which would mean _every_ spell requiring gestures? Or is it rather meant to be understood in a more colloquial way, ala "usually requires"?

Reason for asking is not only the Somatic-to-Manipulate simplification (see above, "a"). There is also something about the context in this paragraph that increases our confusion. I assume it's this mentioning necessities of gestures and incantations - with going into details about what happens when unable to speak incantations (only). (My mind probably liked symmetry and implicitly questioned: Is something missing or something extra, here?) Do you know what I mean?

Please get me right: I generally find that spellcasting rules got more accessible and funny. And the explicitly stated "freedom of flavoring your character's magic" (later in the Casting Spells section) really matches our imagination, too.

I'm just slightly confused about the gestures. Are they ruled by Manipulate (yes/no) - and if not a Manipulate spell it's freestyle - or was there actually an intended change so that every spell (now) require gestures, without exception?


Addition: There might also be additional implications if one adds the Subtle trait into the mix.

For instance, see this sibling thread for further details: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43wzs?How-would-you-handle-the-Subtle-trait


Honestly if there's no Manipulate trait I don't really see the impact of gestures. Do you see a case where it'll be important?


Maybe the strict mechanical aspect is indeed limited. Regarding my imagination, it does however make a difference, if certain spells can be cast without gesturing - which I think of remaining in place relatively still and (by-default) just speaking incantations and manifesting the spell - or if the magical gestures are always there.

Though I might need to spend another look which spells fall into that Non-Manipulate (and non gesture?) range.


As I notice that the alphabetically first spell in PC1 without Manipulate is Air Bubble (s. PC1, pg. 314; cp. legacy link) - there is a mechanical impact, which can decide over life and death: What if one's hands or "gesture-capable appendages" ;-) are tied?

You know, the cliche mafia murder scenario (assuming they completely tied but did not gag us): Do we get an Air Bubble of additional time?


Another mafia murder example: Gentle landing (see PC1, pg. 333; formerly known as Feather Fall) … Gestures or no gestures? ;-)


2 people marked this as a favorite.

These cases are easily solved: Only the Manipulate trait prevents casting the spell while Restrained.
I'd look more at the Paralyzed Condition which prevents any type of movement and is as such more restrictive. But if there are incantations you can't cast the spell while Paralyzed anyway.

So it nails down to: Can you cast a Subtle spell without the Manipulate Trait while Paralyzed? Honestly, I'd leave that to the GM.


The Manipulate trait has the bigger mechanical impact. That is what other rules are going to tie to - such as Reactive Strike and casting spells while restrained.

Spells that don't have the Manipulate trait would technically still have gestures, but it wouldn't be enough gesturing to actually have the Manipulate trait. That would only become important if someone is watching you to see if you are casting a spell.


Agreed, the question of having the Manipulate trait seems to be the mechanically more important, by far. Plus - after looking at spells again - the vast majority I looked up so far have the trait.

Still I'm wondering if gestures should actually be introduced mandatorily for spells that only had Verbal but no Somatic components in CRB, e.g. most classical bard composition cantrips (inspire courage, inspire defense, now anthems) or several reaction spells, as well.

I note that it could be a compromise to treat Non-manipulate spells as having somewhat "smaller" gestures, now (by RAI?).

Additional remarks:
- As I found myself conflating such a (non-manipulate) characteristic of "small gestures" with the colloquial term "subtle", I might reiterate (mainly towards myself): Not same! In the remaster, there are Spells that both have the Manipulate trait - requiring definitely gestures - and the new Subtle trait simultaneously. It's distinct concepts although both associated with how spells look and feel.
- For anyone not scanning all subforums eagerly: Besides the one already cross-linked, there is another sibling thread dealing with Manipulate trait, Conceal Spell (inducing Subtle), in the context of Reactive Strikes: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43wzq?Conceal-Spell-vs-Reactive-Strike


calnivo wrote:
I'm wondering if gestures should actually be introduced mandatorily for spells that only had Verbal but no Somatic components in CRB, e.g. most classical bard composition cantrips (inspire courage, inspire defense, now anthems) or several reaction spells, as well.

This is for manually updating a spell that didn't already get an update officially yet, correct?

I wouldn't add the Manipulate trait. If the spell didn't have Somatic components or other things that gave it the Manipulate trait pre-Remaster, then they shouldn't have the Manipulate trait after the conversion either.

For example, the Shield cantrip. It is Verbal only, so it doesn't have the Manipulate trait pre-Remaster and therefore doesn't trigger Attack of Opportunity. Which is important when a spellcaster wants to tank a hit or two on the front lines to buy an ally a bit of time. Casting Shield doesn't provoke.

If you add the Manipulate trait to that spell, then the new version of Shield does trigger Reactive Strike. So that is definitely a meaningful change introduced into the spell because of that conversion.

And in fact, the Shield cantrip in Player Core does not have the Manipulate trait. Only Cantrip, Concentrate, and Force. The Player Core version of the spell also does not trigger Reactive Strike.


Right, making them all Manipulate caused severe power changes. Most probably undesired ones.

You mentioned an example; I found others in the meantime. Often spells that are particularly interesting to be cast in the front line / closely engaged. Some reaction spells come into my mind like Blood Vendetta.
Imagining some opponent striking you (having prepared Blood Vendetta) and you - by reacting with a hypothetical Manipulate-laden Blood Vendetta - triggering more reactive strikes or the like on top of the original strike… That would be particularly awkward.

(Admittedly, skimming through Focus Spells, there was precedence for such awkwardness, e.g. Retributive Pain or Sudden Shift being Manipulate Spells. I start to realize this now, as Manipulate and provoking reactions has become so transparent. But this is probably out of scope of the thread at hand, so let's get back.)

Consequently, making all spells Manipulate to align the paragraph about gestures with the trait, again, wouldn't work. Leaving us with the already mentioned "small (non-manipulate) gesture"-compromise. Only other way I could see would be to alter or soften the blanket require Gesture/Incantation wording. Which required either house-ruling, errata (if all gestures wasn't intended), or "just" a different understanding that I have. Don't know.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / Post Somatic: Does Manipulate (yes / no) decide over gestures ? Or does _every_ spell require? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.