So.
I've started a Monk. She's a Sacred Nagaji focused on strength.
I took Gorilla stance with her, because it has the grapple trait. My idea is that she uses Flurry of Blows to hit her opponent, then grapples them and does her strength bonus a second time using the Crushing Grab class feat (once she gets it at level 2).
Does this work? If I hit them while in Gorilla Stance I automatically grapple? And the damage from crushing grab just automatically adds in? (I like the idea of her grabbing opponents into her coils and squeezing them.)
Any other advice for a grappling monk that anyone can offer me?
That's not how the grapple trait works. All it really does is on an unarmed strike is add your handwraps item bonus to grapple checks.
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As Captain Morgan said, the grapple trait doesn't mean that you automatically grapple. It's helpful but not that helpful.
Generally for any kind of combat maneuver (grapple, trip, shove, disarm, reposition..) you need a free hand, or the weapon you're using needs to have the appropriate trait.
Also, it's an Athletics check, not an attack roll, so normally the to-hit bonus from your handwraps of mighty blows don't apply to them. However, if the weapon or unarmed strike you're using has the right trait, then you do get to add that bonus.
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So no automatic free grapple. But grappling is pretty nice; it really hinders opponents a lot because it gives them penalties to AC, a flat check to fail at various actions including most spells, and it prevents them from moving away. That one is important because if you're working together with for example someone else playing a fighter, you could restrain an enemy caster from walking away, and the fighter can smack them if they try to cast any spells.
Crushing Grab is Kind of nice for people who often grapple, a little bit of damage in top
If you want a Lot of stuff to do with your grapple besides inconveniencing the enemy take a look at the wrestler archetype
So.
I've started a Monk. She's a Sacred Nagaji focused on strength.
I took Gorilla stance with her, because it has the grapple trait. My idea is that she uses Flurry of Blows to hit her opponent, then grapples them [...]
Any other advice for a grappling monk that anyone can offer me?
Advice 1)
There is also monk class feat, Flurry of Maneuvers (s. CRB, pg. 160; https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=444), that allows to mix strikes (which can be special unarmed strikes, such as the ones from stances, as long as they are generally compatible with flurry of blows ability) with athletics attacks (which can be your grapples).Additional note: Several actions besides strikes, especially the athletics-based offensive combat maneuvers and Escape as well are called attacks. "Attack" is the broader term and among other things will usually imply that it is subject to Multiple Attack Penalty (MAP). So any combination of Strikes and Grapples by default contributes to MAP.
I want to point out: There is another more narrow term, effectively being a subset included in the term attack: "Attack Role", meaning just (weapon or unarmed) Strike or Spell Attack. (Try to ignore that a dice is often used for many athletics actions as well …)
So, when PF2e mentions "Attack Role" it explicitly wants to distinguish Strikes + Spell Attacks on the one side from Athletics Attacks on the other side.
I note this because it comes up at some times and still causes confusion at some places in the rules, where not completely exact. Unfortunately, flurry of maneuvers is one of this places, which (somewhat colloquially) talks about replacing the "attacks" from Flurry of Blows, although it would be more precise to say that Flurry of Blow's attack rolls (i.e. their subordinate strike actions) can be replaced.
Advice 2)
Particularly with monks and their many applicable actions + your desire for grapple, you might look into another feat, in this case a skill feat: Assurance (s. PC1, pg. 252 / CRB, pg. 258; https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=756). When used with athletics, this forfeits all of your bonuses (incl. attribute and item bonuses), but also the penalties (incl. MAP) and causes your monk to get a fixed result for the athletics maneuver - usually a moderate one - sometimes sufficient to get a success. Just another option. If you are interested , search for assurance athletics; you'll probably find much more info and ideas on that.
Forum Organizational Advice 3) There is a whole subforum dedicated to Advice on PF2e character creation, playing etc. See: https://paizo.com/community/forums/pathfinder/second/advice. Opening/Moving the thread there could be helpful.
Generally,I wouldn't advise over fixating on grapple. There are scenarios where it is useful, but against high fortitude melee brutes it is hard to land and doesn't do much more than flanking. It isn't worth the action or raising your MAP. This changes if you have allies making ranged attacks rolls because flatfooted for them is helpful.
Instead, I'd suggest switching between grab, trip, and maybe even the new remastered disarm as the situation dictates. Take weak saves into account. Use Stand Still to punish them for standing up. Don't be afraid to trip and kite. At mid levels, use Whirling Throw to throw your enemies into hazardous terrain or wall of fire type spells.
Wrestler is a good archetype but it doesn't stack well with monk. A lot of feats are already available to you, and most of the others are bespoke actions which can't be part of a flurry of blows. That said, Combat Grab isn't bad if you're going to do 3 attacks. Prone + grabbed is a nice combo because they need to Escape before they can stand.
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I am currently playing a grapple monk with it and I would recommend against Gorilla Stance. I never use it even though it inspired my character to dress up in a (crappy) gorilla costume (this is if for Fist of the Ruby Phoenix). I'd go ahead and get ki strike to go ahead and get some focus points personally.
Not being agile along with the opportunity cost of getting into the stance is not worth the trade off for a bit of damage I have found. Also, the grapple trait does not increase Athletics for the purpose of escaping so you still need Armbands of Athleticism, except for a few gaps here and there it's not really helping you.
Now I did not go the intimidate route so it might be worth it for the Gorilla Pound later on in the feat chain but I have not used it in any way so I'm not sure how effective it is in an actual play scenario.
I had crushing grab but the 4-5 extra damage wasn't worth it to me and I retrained it, but for the theme you are going for seems quite good and thematic. Stunning Fist is my go to now, rarely goes off but great when it does. Doesn't work with Flurry of Maneuvers, at least we don't allow it to since it says two strikes in the Stunning Fist text, so there is that to keep in mind.
A bonus in a stances favor is Prevailing Position is quite a good reaction, though I retrained it to Wind Jump when I stopped using the stance. The fly speed you get is bonkers even with the caveat of having to land, but that goes away 1 level later with a skill check that is pretty easy.
The only time I am blanked with this build is when the enemy is too large to grapple, which has happened some with big monsters in FotRF.
In those cases I soak reactions and heal with Wholeness of Body, my guy is crazy tanky.
Edit: Level 14
My guy currently has(i think can't look at pathbuilder atm):
Gorilla Stance (unused mostly, retrain to ki strike soon)
Ki Strike(Natural Ambition, retrain to some other Ancestry Feat soon)
Stunning Fist
Flurry of Maneuvers
Wholeness of Body
Whirling Throw (Baller Third Action with No MAP)
Wind Jump (Retrain when I get the Super Saiyan Feat at 18th)
Diamond Soul
Edit: Stand Still
Did you skip Titan Wrestler? Size shouldn't matter at levels 15+ with that.
Lots of good things to think about as I decide if I want to rebuild my PFS monk post-remaster. Thanks for the insightful comments!
Also, it's an Athletics check, not an attack roll, so normally the to-hit bonus from your handwraps of mighty blows don't apply to them. However, if the weapon or unarmed strike you're using has the right trait, then you do get to add that bonus.
OK, color me confused. HOW, exactly, do I grapple an opponent? Does it suffer from the multiple attack penalty?
Gorilla Slam has the grapple trait. So I *do* get to add my bonus for crushing grab??
Sorry, but this is all really new to me. I kinda need it spelled out.
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Also, it's an Athletics check, not an attack roll, so normally the to-hit bonus from your handwraps of mighty blows don't apply to them. However, if the weapon or unarmed strike you're using has the right trait, then you do get to add that bonus.OK, color me confused. HOW, exactly, do I grapple an opponent? Does it suffer from the multiple attack penalty?
Gorilla Slam has the grapple trait. So I *do* get to add my bonus for crushing grab??
Sorry, but this is all really new to me. I kinda need it spelled out.
Q1: You use the Grapple Action. Yes, it does like any action with the Attack trait. So you will want Grapple to be your first Attack action most of the time so the Athletics check does not have MAP.
Q2: If you successfully Grapple you may deal bludgeoning damage equal to your Str Modifier to the enemy if you have Crushing Grab, but not when you hit with an attack with the grapple trait such as Gorilla Slam.
I'll give you an example in the hope that it helps.
Say you use Gorilla Stance, have Crushing Grab, and have +1 handwraps.
Round 1
Your Turn
Pick the enemy you want to lock down
Action 1: Action to get in Stance.
Action 2: Stride to the Enemy.
Actions 3: You use the Grapple action and roll an Athletics Check against Fort DC with +1 item bonus from handwraps applying their item bonus to the check due to Gorilla Slam having the grapple trait. You now have MAP -5 since Grapple has the Attack trait, but that's end your turn no biggie. Success! The target is now grabbed until the end of your next turn and you can choose to deal bludgeoning damage equal to your Str Modifier from Crushing Grab after a successful Grapple.
Enemy Turn
Say they take a few nasty hits from being Off-Guard due to your Grapple so they want out early.
Action 1: Attempt to Escape against your Athletics DC, this DC does not gain the +1 item bonus from the grapple trait, succeed and take MAP as Escape has the Attack trait.
Action 2: Attack with -5 MAP.
Action 3: Steps 5 feet away.
Round 2:
Your Turn
Action 1: Step to Enemy.
Action 2: Grapple, adding +1 to the check from grapple trait allowing the handwraps item bonus to the check again, you fail take -5 MAP .
Action 3: Hail Mary Grapple because you really want them Off-Guard for your allies. Grapple check with -5 MAP to your check, but still with the +1 item bonus. Success! The target is Grabbed until the end of you next turn and you may choose to deal bludgeoning damage equal to you Str Modifier with Crushing Grab again.
etc.. etc..
The reason maneuver-oriented monks often do not want to use Gorilla stance is that having an agile unarmed attack to follow up grabbing/tripping lets you make attacks at -2 and -6 compared to baseline instead of -3 and -8 because a grabbed or prone opponent is off-guard to your attacks as well as to those of your allies
So a turn like: Step,Grap/Trip,Flurry becomes workable as -10 attacks are almost never worth using but -6 can be if -5 is.
Action 1: Action to get in Stance.
Action 2: Stride to the Enemy.
Actions 3: You use the Grapple action and roll an Athletics Check against Fort DC with +1 item bonus from handwraps applying their item bonus to the check due to Gorilla Slam having the grapple trait. You now have MAP -5 since Grapple has the Attack trait, but that's end your turn no biggie. Success! The target is now grabbed until the end of your next turn and you can choose to deal bludgeoning damage equal to your Str Modifier from Crushing Grab after a successful Grapple.
Wait...
This makes grapple sound nearly useless. I make an attack to grapple and do a WHOPPING 4 points of damage from my strength mod?? Then if I want to make a REAL attack I have to try to hit at a -5 penalty???
PF2 is a game built around teamwork tactics. The value a character who can grapple/trip brings to the game is that you can inflict off-guard on an enemy to the benefit of the rest of the party, eat up enemy actions having to do things like Escape or Stand Up, and restrict enemy movement/actions.
This can be very valuable, but it's not the sort of thing that's likely to take an enemy out of the fight singlehandedly. The upside is that you don't need to orient your entire character around it- literally any class can be good at maneuvers with the package of: maxed Strength, maxed Athletics, Titan Wrestler, and Assurance (athletics)." Crushing Grab, notably, is fairly unspectacular. The goodies that make the monk appealing as a platform for maneuvers are things like Mixed Maneuver Sleeper Hold, and Whirling Throw- you're more of a control oriented grappler than a damage oriented one (that would be the fighter or the barbarian.)
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Action 1: Action to get in Stance.
Action 2: Stride to the Enemy.
Actions 3: You use the Grapple action and roll an Athletics Check against Fort DC with +1 item bonus from handwraps applying their item bonus to the check due to Gorilla Slam having the grapple trait. You now have MAP -5 since Grapple has the Attack trait, but that's end your turn no biggie. Success! The target is now grabbed until the end of your next turn and you can choose to deal bludgeoning damage equal to your Str Modifier from Crushing Grab after a successful Grapple.Wait...
This makes grapple sound nearly useless. I make an attack to grapple and do a WHOPPING 4 points of damage from my strength mod?? Then if I want to make a REAL attack I have to try to hit at a -5 penalty???
It’s kinda what makes Gorilla Stance a bit of a trap for a Grapple/Maneuver build. Seems nice but the grapple trait doesn’t help much especially with the loss of agile.
Without it say you Grab and enemy with just your regular unarmed attack. You take a -4 on the follow up attack if it’s agile plus the -2 AC penalty for Off-Guard on the enemy making it an effective -2/-6 instead of -3/-8 as Cabbage said above.
If you really do want a stance for bigger damage die it’s better to get one that retains agile, tiger stance for example, for a Maneuver type build.
What makes it fun are the action compression feats like Flurry of Maneuvers & Ki Strike (which has even more mitigation of your penalties from MAP with its +1 status bonus to your Flurry Strikes plus a bit more damage). My personal favorite is when they Critically Succeed an Escape attempt and use the free Stride to trigger the Stand Still reaction for another no MAP strike, though we forgot about the crit. success clause on the Escape action a lot lol
Edit: As Cabbage says above it is very much not a damage build but it does alright. You eat actions of your enemies with them having to Escape or Stand etc. My monk is a great battlefield controller, it’s a great teamwork build.
One note on Assurance is that you want this if you're going to be tripping/grappling. Since Assurance gives you a skill check value of 10+level+2*(skill)- so a 7th level monk with Master Athletics gets a 23.
The number of things you will fight at 7th level monk whose Fortitude (grapple) *or* Reflex (trip) you can beat with a 23 is larger than you think. Not like bosses and elite enemies, but you're going to be able to auto-trip or auto-grab a lot of folks. This is a great option for your 3rd action when you're at maximum MAP. This is also why you don't want to think of yourself as a grappler since a lot of the time you can beat the Reflex DC with Assurance but not the Fortitude DC (e.g. against a Hill Giant) so you will sometimes want to trip instead of grab, so it's nice that investing in Athletics gets you both.
OK, let me back up. I'm still confused...
What does the grapple trait actually do for a power? Traits give some benefit to attacks. Like versatile or finesse. What benefit does an attack with grapple have that an attack without grapple does not?
I do appreciate all the input.
Benefits on an unarmed attack:
1. You can grapple with that attack's reach, if it differs from your other reach (not relevant to gorilla stance, but there are cases).
2. If you have an Item bonus to that unarmed attack, as from Handwraps of Mighty Blows, you can apply that bonus to your Grapple check.
3. If that unarmed attack is not one made with a hand, you can grapple with the anatomy used, instead of a free hand (this is why bite attacks with Grapple are so appealing)
If it were on a weapon, instead of an unarmed attack, you'd use the above and also add the ability to drop the weapon instead of taking the critical failure effect if you crit fail the grapple.
Your Strikes with the unarmed attack that has the Grapple trait aren't modified at all.
The problem is that grapple is a pretty bad trait for an attack that already uses a free hand, and it is even worse if you give up agile for it.
The better grappling stance is Clinging Shadows.
-Damage is much lower (d4) but you can still use powerful fist for d6 in the stance. And negative damage can be used to bypass physical resistance. (Gorilla Slam limits you to only use Gorilla Slams, but not all stances do.)
-Retains agile.
-Gives reach. If someone is grappled by a creature with longer reach, they can usually attack the creature's body part doing the grappling at GM's discretion. But Clinging Shadows doesn't use your own body, but a "sticky smoke which clings to everything you touch " by flavor and void energy by mechanics. Pretty good case you can't be harmed through it, so you can potentially hold someone in place where they can't hit you. By level 8 ranged attacks are pretty common on enemies, but they have to deal with flat checks to draw or load another weapon and probably deal less damage. Their only other alternative is Escape, which increases their MAP.
-Damage is much lower (d4) but you can still use powerful fist for d6 in the stance. And negative damage can be used to bypass physical resistance. (Gorilla Slam limits you to only use Gorilla Slams, but not all stances do.)
You can also use any unarmed attacks you may have off your ancestry and/or from archetypes. I note here the benefits of Tailed Goblin/Hard Tail/Tail Spin, as an example. For those who want to go creepier than that, especially those who have Free Archetype, I note that Witch Armaments are surprisingly poachable.
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... She's a Sacred Nagaji focused on strength...
...(Gorilla Slam limits you to only use Gorilla Slams, but not all stances do.)...
That part is limiting to your character as you would not be able to use you Nagaji tail attack when in Gorilla Stance, since it is one of the stances that locks you into only one type of attack. So might be a flavor fail.
Maybe you can still use the tail to attack and it has the stance traits and none of its own, I'm not clear on how it interacts with ancestry natural attacks honestly as I haven't used one on a character myself.
That would allow you to Grapple with your tail and that is probably the flavor you want. It would be a big point in Gorilla Stances favor and might worth the trade off for agile to have the cool flavor. Though that is likely a house ruling.
...What does the grapple trait actually do for a power? Traits give some benefit to attacks. Like versatile or finesse. What benefit does an attack with grapple have that an attack without grapple does not?...
... 2. If you have an Item bonus to that unarmed attack, as from Handwraps of Mighty Blows, you can apply that bonus to your Grapple check.
3. If that unarmed attack is not one made with a hand, you can grapple with the anatomy used, instead of a free hand (this is why bite attacks with Grapple are so appealing)
For an unarmed grapple/maneuver build
#2 is about all the Grapple trait will do for your build, but only when you get +1 Handwraps at around level 2 and does pretty much nothing for you at level 1.
That would be a +1 item bonus to Grapple Checks from levels 2-8 until you would likely want to get Armbands of Athleticism around level 9 to get +2 to ALL Athletics checks, including increasing your Escape DC. The only gap where you benefit from the grapple trait would be level 16 with +3 Handwraps for ONE level until at level 17 you would want to get the +3 Armbands of Athleticism. The loss of agile is not worth the +1 to only ONE type of Athletics check IMHO.
#3 Maybe this applies if the GM lets you use Gorilla Slams with your Nagaji's tail. Again, not sure how it interacts.
I would recommend just getting Ki Strike or a stance with an agile attack at level 1 instead, as I have learned the hard way of the Gorillas Stance/Grapple Trait trap. Unless you house rule the stance allows you to grapple with your tail otherwise not much going for it numbers wise.
You can 100% still play the Grapple build and all you are missing is a +1 item bonus to that one Maneuver for a few levels, and you will be much more accurate with any MAP attacks. It's how I play my human and it's loads of fun locking folks down, tossing them with whirling throw, smacking them with Stand Still when they Stand from a trip etc.
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Honestly, Athletis is such a good skill you might as well just get an item to boost it regardless of the trait. Lifters Belt is hella cheap.Then go Dragon Stance for bigger damage. It is meant to use kicks to simulate a dragon's tail, but I bet your GM would let you flavor it as your own tail.
Also, consider Dragon Disciple if you have free archetype. It probably isn't worth giving up regular class feats for, but Scales of the Dragon lets you get max AC without maxing dex. And a couple dragons give bludgeoning or piercing resistance, which is great.