The Subtle trait is the new black since the remaster. But I want to be sure I'm reading it well.
Subtle says: "A spell with the subtle trait can be cast without incantations and doesn’t have obvious manifestations."
While spells says: "Casting a spell requires the caster to make gestures
and utter incantations" and "Spellcasting creates obvious sensory manifestations, such as bright lights, crackling sounds, and sharp smells from the gathering magic. Nearly all spells manifest a spell signature—a colorful, glowing ring of magical runes that appears in midair, typically around your hands, though what kind of spellcaster you are can affect this—academic wizards typically have neat and ordered spell signatures, while a druid’s might be more organic and a cleric’s might be inspired by their deity"
So, there's obviously no question about incantations and manifestations. But what about gestures and spell signature? From strict RAW, they are not removed by the Subtle trait but they still make it rather obvious that you're casting a spell. Definitely less obvious than without the trait, as you no more make sound, smell or light, but still obvious enough to prevent casting in front of anyone. Also, Charm has kept the wording saying the target thinks your spell was harmless.
So it seems the Subtle trait doesn't remove the need for Stealth or Deception if you want to cast such a spell when there are creatures/persons around.
How would you handle it?
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I would put the signature in the "obvious manifestations" category.
The gestures would stay since nothing says they're gone. But they might be subtle enough to require a Perception check.
But then I do not have the Remastered rules, so I will need to read all about this in much more depth and detail to really make up my mind.
On principle, I start from the idea that it works much the same as it did before and is more an errata/clarification than a change of the rules' paradigm.
I can't imagine that the Subtle trait was designed to do absolutely nothing in any practical scenario. So the GM saying: 'yeah you can cast the Subtle spell, but still everyone that is even in the room can see the gestures that you are making and instantly recognizes that you are casting a spell.' That fails the Too Bad to be True litmus test.
On the other side, I think that having the Subtle trait meaning that there is no option for observers to know that a spell was cast - or that in combat an enemy won't be able to react to the spellcasting - is also Too Good/Bad to be True.
If I was the GM making the ruling:
In a social encounter environment, most of the people would not be actively looking for spellcasting. There may be some that are. So a skill check of some sort may be asked for depending on the circumstances and would be ruled on a case-by-case basis rather than trying to create a universal ruling that would be applied in all cases.
In a combat encounter, enemies are going to be watching for spellcasting. Casting a spell still takes concentration and gestures even if it does not have visible or audible manifestations or spoken words. Enemy combatants can still react to the caster paying more attention to their spellcasting than they are to the combat (reactions to casting a spell in general), or to the gestures of whatever size (the manipulate trait that spellcasting has).
On principle, I start from the idea that it works much the same as it did before and is more an errata/clarification than a change of the rules' paradigm.
Yes, this ability to remove the visible and audible manifestations from spellcasting existed pre-Remaster. If it didn't break the game then, I don't see why it would now.
The only difference now is that it is more widely accessible and less costly to get.
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The subtle trait feels a bit unfinished-design to me. It's good that we have some spells now marked as "this spell is less noticeable, which is necessary for its purpose". But I kinda don't really expect it to stay exactly as-is because it's just a bit too total. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets some more errata in the next print run.
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I can't imagine that the Subtle trait was designed to do absolutely nothing in any practical scenario. So the GM saying: 'yeah you can cast the Subtle spell, but still everyone that is even in the room can see the gestures that you are making and instantly recognizes that you are casting a spell.' That fails the Too Bad to be True litmus test.
On the other side, I think that having the Subtle trait meaning that there is no option for observers to know that a spell was cast - or that in combat an enemy won't be able to react to the spellcasting - is also Too Good/Bad to be True.
Agreed.
If I was the GM making the ruling:
You are still making gestures. But it is disguised as something else so it is not normally obvious you have cast a spell. Your action can still be reacted to if the trigger is appropriate.
If someone is especially watching you for this sort of activity - like someone waiting to counterspell you, or a vigilant guard taking Seek actions in a social situation - then I'd let them have a roll Perception versus your Deception DC to notice.
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If someone is especially watching you for this sort of activity - like someone waiting to counterspell you, or a vigilant guard taking Seek actions in a social situation - then I'd let them have a roll Perception versus your Deception DC to notice.
I would also allow other appropriate skills. Such as the spellcasting skill - how small can you make the gestures and still have the spell work? Or Stealth - can you make the gestures behind your back or in your pocket so that the observer doesn't see?
I would also allow other appropriate skills. Such as the spellcasting skill - how small can you make the gestures and still have the spell work? Or Stealth - can you make the gestures behind your back or in your pocket so that the observer doesn't see?If someone is especially watching you for this sort of activity - like someone waiting to counterspell you, or a vigilant guard taking Seek actions in a social situation - then I'd let them have a roll Perception versus your Deception DC to notice.
This, and I would also allow the observer to use things like Arcana (or others, depending on the tradition used), if they are more skilled in them than in Perception.
As you discuss Subtle trait and gestures (btw, thx for opening, SuperBidi!), I'd like to add a reference to a related question about Manipulate and gestures, in general. See sibling thread: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43x06?Post-Somatic-Does-Manipulate-decide-over
Update: Added cross-link.