Molten Wire doesn't have the attack action, but the text says to make an impulse attack roll. So all abilities of a kineticist operate like spells and the MAP description says spell attack rolls increase MAP. So wouldn't impulse attack rolls be like spell attack rolls and increase MAP?
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=322
"The second time you use an attack action during your turn...".
Not the second time you make an attack roll. The attack action.
Escape takes an action. If they do that, then you basically have a stun 1, plus their MAP.
And I'm not saying Molten Wire is a top pick, especially if you have Synesthesia.
But since you have plenty of other multi-target spells. A single target debuff for a boss isn't a terrible choice.
I wouldn't complain if it got a buff though.
Molten Wire doesn't have the attack action, but the text says to make an impulse attack roll. So all abilities of a kineticist operate like spells and the MAP description says spell attack rolls increase MAP. So wouldn't impulse attack rolls be like spell attack rolls and increase MAP?https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=322
"The second time you use an attack action during your turn...".
Not the second time you make an attack roll. The attack action.
Escape takes an action. If they do that, then you basically have a stun 1, plus their MAP.
And I'm not saying Molten Wire is a top pick, especially if you have Synesthesia.
But since you have plenty of other multi-target spells. A single target debuff for a boss isn't a terrible choice.
I wouldn't complain if it got a buff though.
I read that rule. So by omission the rule indicates that an ability that says an "impulse attack roll" but doesn't have the attack trait doesn't increase MAP? I wonder how common that is for something to omit the attack trait or use a term that doesn't include the attack trait to not increase MAP. I wonder if this is intentional or an omission.
I can live with it. It's not that powerful an ability and no MAP makes it slightly better. It still needs a lot of work to scale well enough to be worthwhile to take.
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Molten Wire doesn't have the attack action, but the text says to make an impulse attack roll. So all abilities of a kineticist operate like spells and the MAP description says spell attack rolls increase MAP. So wouldn't impulse attack rolls be like spell attack rolls and increase MAP?
Yes it is clearly an error. It mentions attack roll but has no attack trait. There are a couple of these errors in the latest book. Technically it is the presence of the attack trait that affects MAP, but the whole rules section for MAP is under attack rolls - so I'd need something more to swallow that reasoning.
I disagree here, and again I'm going to take issue with your math statement.
From Citricking's tool, at level 10 (it's roughly constant but you were speaking of level 10):
Flying Flame + Thermal Nimbus + 1-action EB gains 45% damage thanks to Fire Aura Junction.Solar Detonation + Thermal Nimbus + 1-action EB gains 36% damage thanks to Fire Aura Junction.
And if you choose to play at range, Flying Flame + Thermal Nimbus + 1-action EB + Fire Aura Junction does 36% more damage than Solar Detonation + 1-action EB.
So, I agree, I was a bit over the actual number, but +35-40% damage is still completely broken in a game as balanced as PF2. And with a 20+-foot aura, it's not really hard to put most enemies under it, so the damage gain is not really circumstantial.
Now, does the Fire Aura Junction being broken makes the Fire Kineticist broken? Not at all, quite the contrary in my opinion. Without the Fire Aura Junction, the Fire Kineticist is really weak. The Fire Aura Junction rebalances the overall weakness of the pyrokineticist.
Similarly, I've looked at the Water Kineticist and if you don't take Winter Sleet it's also really weak.
So for me the Kineticist is built with a few broken options that counterbalance the overall weakness of the class. I don't find it properly made as it raises issues for beginners who may miss the overpowered options, with the Dedication allowing you to grab the overpowered options without suffering from the Kineticist class and if you manage to combine overpowered options.
For example, a Wood/Water Kineticist with Winter Sleet + Timber Sentinel + Wood Impulse Junction + Deflecting Wave + Ocean's Balm/Fresh Produce do break the game in my opinion as the amount of action denial and damage mitigation (+ a bit of healing) is higher than what many encounters can expect to deal. I can see many groups banning such a build.
I disagree here, and again I'm going to take issue with your math statement.From Citricking's tool, at level 10 (it's roughly constant but you were speaking of level 10):
Flying Flame + Thermal Nimbus + 1-action EB gains 45% damage thanks to Fire Aura Junction.
Solar Detonation + Thermal Nimbus + 1-action EB gains 36% damage thanks to Fire Aura Junction.
And if you choose to play at range, Flying Flame + Thermal Nimbus + 1-action EB + Fire Aura Junction does 36% more damage than Solar Detonation + 1-action EB.So, I agree, I was a bit over the actual number, but +35-40% damage is still completely broken in a game as balanced as PF2. And with a 20+-foot aura, it's not really hard to put most enemies under it, so the damage gain is not really circumstantial.
Now, does the Fire Aura Junction being broken makes the Fire Kineticist broken? Not at all, quite the contrary in my opinion. Without the Fire Aura Junction, the Fire Kineticist is really weak. The Fire Aura Junction rebalances the overall weakness of the pyrokineticist.
Similarly, I've looked at the Water Kineticist and if you don't take Winter Sleet it's also really weak.
So for me the Kineticist is built with a few broken options that counterbalance the overall weakness of the class. I don't find it properly made as it raises issues for beginners who may miss the overpowered options, with the Dedication allowing you to grab the overpowered options without suffering from the Kineticist class and if you manage to combine overpowered options.
For example, a Wood/Water Kineticist with Winter Sleet + Timber Sentinel + Wood Impulse Junction + Deflecting Wave + Ocean's Balm/Fresh Produce do break the game in my opinion as the amount of action denial and damage mitigation (+ a bit of healing) is higher than what many encounters can expect to deal. I can see many groups banning such a build.
What do you think of Rebirth in Living Stone?
What do you think of Rebirth in Living Stone?
My first thought is that I don't really care of level 18 abilities. The second thought is meh: it compares negatively to Negate Damage for me.
And I can't stop comparing Kineticist and Inventor, especially Armor Inventor, as both classes are extremely similar in terms of role. Hence why I bring Negate Damage.
What do you think of Rebirth in Living Stone?My first thought is that I don't really care of level 18 abilities. The second thought is meh: it compares negatively to Negate Damage for me.
And I can't stop comparing Kineticist and Inventor, especially Armor Inventor, as both classes are extremely similar in terms of role. Hence why I bring Negate Damage.
I don't know if Negate Damage once a round is a good as immunity to precision damage and critical hits. I imagine both are dependent on if you are getting hit. Negate Damage is a single reaction once per round where Rebirth in Living Stone is a Stance on all the time.
What do you think of an Earth Kineticist that dumps Dexterity for Armor in Earth and focus heavily on being a martial type of kineticist using punching in melee for their strength bonus while using Rebirth in Living Stone or Assume Earth's Mantle?
That seems like a pretty brutal combo for an Earth Kineticist with a maxed out Con, maybe a dwarf with Unburdened Iron and Mountain's Stoutness.
I don't know if Negate Damage once a round is a good as immunity to precision damage and critical hits.
They are different, definitely. The main issue of Rebirth in Living Stone is that it's a Stance and Kineticist's Stances are so good that it feels pale in comparison.
What do you think of an Earth Kineticist that dumps Dexterity for Armor in Earth and focus heavily on being a martial type of kineticist using punching in melee for their strength bonus while using Rebirth in Living Stone or Assume Earth's Mantle?
I haven't looked at Earth Kineticist in detail, so I won't have a proper answer. I do think you can build an extremely tanky Kineticist (you can add Deflecting Wave to your build as it seems you don't use your Reaction if you want to reach near invulnerability).
But my gripe against the Kineticist is not how tanky it is, but how unimpactful it is if you don't grab the broken abilities. So if you use anything like Pyrokinesis or Winter Sleet, you should attract enough attention. Or Timber Sentinel, to protect your allies. Or any other ability I don't know of. But if you don't use any of these abilities, I fear that your super tanky Kineticist just get ignored by enemies who will focus on your more effective allies.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, it doesn't require that. They can attack and move just fine with Molten Wire on. The fire damage is so weak as they can ignore it.
The DM just let the creature keep fighting with Molten Wire on because of the weak damage. It does 4d4 (4d6 with impulse junction) fire damage at level 11 with a Basic Reflex save. It doesn't slow the creature down at all. No minus to hit unless a dex creature.
You are better off hitting it with a blast or something that does more damage. It causes MAP.
It's not a good ability.
molten wire does not cause MAP. You can use it and get +1 to hit on a blast.
Might not be intentional, but it's missing the Attack tag.
Comparing to another 2 action non-overflow
Flying flame at level 11 does 6d6 = 21
Molten wire at level 11 does 3d6+3d4 = 18 +7.5 per round.So if they ignored it for even a single round and it will deal 20% more damage.
Ignore it for 2 rounds and it's the most damaging move you can do.
Add in the weakness aura or an ally attacking AC and that gap grows.Or you can miss.
What is the exact ruling that makes only the attack tag increase MAP?
As far as I understand it, if you make an attack roll it increases MAP. Attack tag is primarily for skill actions to designate them as increasing map, but any offensive abilities with an attack roll increase MAP by the nature of being an attack roll.
Regardless, I have used Molten Wire multiple time to test its abilities and it is not good.
1. Clumsy 1 is often redundant once you have Synesthesia or another more powerful status modifier debuff which are extremely common at high level.
2. 4d4 to 4d6 damage isn't much at all with a basic reflex save. You're better off hitting with something that hits harder immediately. Things die too fast in most groups for Molten Wire to do more damage than a harder hitting ability that does weak opening damage hoping to do more damage as rounds go on.
3. Your class DC compared to Athletics,...
IMO the main problem of Molten Wire is that it's a 2-action impulse! If it was a 1-action impulse every thing would make sense.
Currently isn't like it is useless but it's a 2-action 15 ft reach clumsy 1 debuff that also does a bit of damage. It's makes sense if you plan to stack it with something that gives Off-Guard condition once that the both condition are AC reduction that stacks. But due it requires 2-actions and also probably increases your MAP it's action economy efficiency is pretty questionable.
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Escape takes an action. If they do that, then you basically have a stun 1, plus their MAP.
...
No because you are not required to Escape.
It's pretty common that a creature that want to move or cast want to Escape from a Grabbed condition but it isn't mandatory specially for creatures that don't cast and don't care to attack the creature that is grabbing it.
Molten Wire is in a pretty worse situation. Instead of suffer from a Grabbed condition It's just a "persistent" (due the lack of a better term) damage that's easily ignorable specially for creatures with a high reflex and Clumsy 1 tha's off-corse is bad but usually not so bad to worth a MAP. As GM unless for some specific lore situations, I probably just ignore it an only make a creature try to Escape if the creature has any actions left.
...
For example, a Wood/Water Kineticist with Winter Sleet + Timber Sentinel + Wood Impulse Junction + Deflecting Wave + Ocean's Balm/Fresh Produce do break the game in my opinion as the amount of action denial and damage mitigation (+ a bit of healing) is higher than what many encounters can expect to deal. I can see many groups banning such a build.
Yet it's no better than a Champion with a Sturdy Shield and Protector's Sphere.
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I don't know if Negate Damage once a round is a good as immunity to precision damage and critical hits.They are different, definitely. The main issue of Rebirth in Living Stone is that it's a Stance and Kineticist's Stances are so good that it feels pale in comparison.
What do you think of an Earth Kineticist that dumps Dexterity for Armor in Earth and focus heavily on being a martial type of kineticist using punching in melee for their strength bonus while using Rebirth in Living Stone or Assume Earth's Mantle?I haven't looked at Earth Kineticist in detail, so I won't have a proper answer. I do think you can build an extremely tanky Kineticist (you can add Deflecting Wave to your build as it seems you don't use your Reaction if you want to reach near invulnerability).
But my gripe against the Kineticist is not how tanky it is, but how unimpactful it is if you don't grab the broken abilities. So if you use anything like Pyrokinesis or Winter Sleet, you should attract enough attention. Or Timber Sentinel, to protect your allies. But if you don't use any of these abilities, I fear that your super tanky Kineticist just get ignored by enemies who will focus on your more effective allies.
Stone aura makes difficult terrain when moving away from you.
It's a softer taunt, but more than nothing.Combine with Ravel of Thorns' -10' movement penalty and they won't get far. That's your stance though.
Also, Tremor is one of the few Fortitude attacks. Most are Reflex. Being able to target both is an indirect damage boost.
Saying Kineticist are bad if you don't use the powerful abilities is like saying wizard are bad if you don't use the powerful spells.
I don't know if Negate Damage once a round is a good as immunity to precision damage and critical hits.They are different, definitely. The main issue of Rebirth in Living Stone is that it's a Stance and Kineticist's Stances are so good that it feels pale in comparison.
What do you think of an Earth Kineticist that dumps Dexterity for Armor in Earth and focus heavily on being a martial type of kineticist using punching in melee for their strength bonus while using Rebirth in Living Stone or Assume Earth's Mantle?I haven't looked at Earth Kineticist in detail, so I won't have a proper answer. I do think you can build an extremely tanky Kineticist (you can add Deflecting Wave to your build as it seems you don't use your Reaction if you want to reach near invulnerability).
But my gripe against the Kineticist is not how tanky it is, but how unimpactful it is if you don't grab the broken abilities. So if you use anything like Pyrokinesis or Winter Sleet, you should attract enough attention. Or Timber Sentinel, to protect your allies. Or any other ability I don't know of. But if you don't use any of these abilities, I fear that your super tanky Kineticist just get ignored by enemies who will focus on your more effective allies.
What do you think of Rebirth in Living Stone as a dual class champion or a Giant barbarian? Could you build something really nice with a dual class kineticist?
Saying Kineticist are bad if you don't use the powerful abilities is like saying wizard are bad if you don't use the powerful spells.
It's a good analogy. "Summoning spells are bad", "specialized casters are bad", etc... are all discussions that come back over and over again and prove there's a big issue with how spells are balanced. So, "Kineticist is bad if you don't play with these few abilities" is an actual deal, in my opinion.
But I'm not sure it's what you wanted to express with your sentence.
Yet it's no better than a Champion with a Sturdy Shield and Protector's Sphere.
Protector's Sphere gives a reduction of spell level -1 to each attacks when Timber Sentinel gives a reduction of spell level * 10 combined between attacks. There's a level of magnitude between both abilities.
So no, they are not comparable. A Champion can block a significant amount of damage but very far from all, when this Kineticists should prevent all damage dealt to the party if the encounter is not too deadly (and rely on Strikes, obviously).What do you think of Rebirth in Living Stone as a dual class champion or a Giant barbarian? Could you build something really nice with a dual class kineticist?
You are miles away from my comfort zone. I don't play with dual class so I can't tell you what is the expected efficiency for a dual classed character. Also, it depends if you allow broken things like Fighter/Barbarian dual class or if you want a comparison with less broken things like Fighter/Wizard dual class.
I personally think you can easily get broken things from the kineticist class through the Dedication (and a level high enough). Winter Sleet is an obvious one, but Timber Sentinel is also gorgeous on a build who doesn't need much actions to attack (Ranger or Monk, for example). So in my opinion you can get pretty sick combos by grabbing a few Kineticist Impulses. But otherwise, the Kineticist class doesn't benefit from any Dedication/Dual Class as it neither uses spells nor Strikes. So it may not be that good for Dual Class. So, as you see, I have no real answer to your question.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No because you are not required to Escape.It's pretty common that a creature that want to move or cast want to Escape from a Grabbed condition but it isn't mandatory specially for creatures that don't cast and don't care to attack the creature that is grabbing it.
Molten Wire is in a pretty worse situation. Instead of suffer from a Grabbed condition It's just a "persistent" (due the lack of a better term) damage that's easily ignorable specially for creatures with a high reflex and Clumsy 1 tha's off-corse is bad but usually not so bad to worth a MAP. As GM unless for some specific lore situations, I probably just ignore it an only make a creature try to Escape if the creature has any actions left.
Again. Ignoring it for even 1 round (and not dying) means you delt more damage than other 2 action impulse. Especially of you have the weakness aura.
Unlike other "persistent" damage, you don't get to save out of it without spending an action to Escape, which is MAP (even without an attack roll).
Is it niche? Yes. You only want to use on a target that won't die immediately. Not something to spam it on every turn.
But it's better than Crawling Flame.
Yet it's no better than a Champion with a Sturdy Shield and Protector's Sphere.Protector's Sphere gives a reduction of spell level -1 to each attacks when Timber Sentinel gives a reduction of spell level * 10 combined between attacks. There's a level of magnitude between both abilities.
So no, they are not comparable. A Champion can block a significant amount of damage but very far from all, when this Kineticists should prevent all damage dealt to the party if the encounter is not too deadly (and rely on Strikes, obviously).
Timber Sentinel/Protector Tree is pretty good like a BIG shared temporary HP for the party but also is pretty avoidable (the opponent usually just need to do a Step to avoid it) also it's pretty expensive to the kineticist action economy to "move" it. Also as you said it only works vs Strike, any non-Strike action will just ignore it. Also current description of the spell makes it doesn't protect the own caster.
In this comparison with Protector's Sphere that's able to protect the own caster and all its allies including vs all non-Strike damage and AoE dmg at cost of just Sustain it or Champion's Reaction that will protect an ally to all damage equals to you level + 2 and if you have Shield Warden this will include your shield hardness too and also you are the target you will able to sum both Protector's Sphere to your Shield Block something that the tree is unable to do.
That's why I said that IMO it's no better than a Champion with a Sturdy Shield and Protector's Sphere. Timber Sentinel is good but not a costless (in term of action economy) OP impulse.
No because you are not required to Escape.It's pretty common that a creature that want to move or cast want to Escape from a Grabbed condition but it isn't mandatory specially for creatures that don't cast and don't care to attack the creature that is grabbing it.
Molten Wire is in a pretty worse situation. Instead of suffer from a Grabbed condition It's just a "persistent" (due the lack of a better term) damage that's easily ignorable specially for creatures with a high reflex and Clumsy 1 tha's off-corse is bad but usually not so bad to worth a MAP. As GM unless for some specific lore situations, I probably just ignore it an only make a creature try to Escape if the creature has any actions left.
Again. Ignoring it for even 1 round (and not dying) means you delt more damage than other 2 action impulse. Especially of you have the weakness aura.
Unlike other "persistent" damage, you don't get to save out of it without spending an action to Escape, which is MAP (even without an attack roll).
Is it niche? Yes. You only want to use on a target that won't die immediately. Not something to spam it on every turn.
But it's better than Crawling Flame.
The problem is that it's an attack impulse so its sabotage your 3rd action blast due MAP, also it will benefit from fire weakness only if you hit while the save impulses get the weakness extra damage even if the target succeed its save.
It's not a bad impulse but honestly IMO there's better options for fire/metal impulses even for single target.
Maybe it can be useful if you plan to use your 3rd-action to Rise a Shield or move but if your plan is to blast it doesn't worth.
Timber Sentinel/Protector Tree is pretty good like a BIG shared temporary HP for the party but also is pretty avoidable (the opponent usually just need to do a Step to avoid it) also it's pretty expensive to the kineticist action economy to "move" it. Also as you said it only works vs Strike, any non-Strike action will just ignore it. Also current description of the spell makes it doesn't protect the own caster.
In this comparison with Protector's Sphere that's able to protect the own caster and all its allies including vs all non-Strike damage and AoE dmg at cost of just Sustain it or Champion's Reaction that will protect an ally to all damage equals to you level + 2 and if you have Shield Warden this will include your shield hardness too and also you are the target you will able to sum both Protector's Sphere to your Shield Block something that the tree is unable to do.
That's why I said that IMO it's no better than a Champion with a Sturdy Shield and Protector's Sphere. Timber Sentinel is good but not a costless (in term of action economy) OP impulse.
Let's make simple math. At level 10, the tree has 50 hit points, and between Wood Impulse Junction and Deflecting Wave you block another 20 hit points. 70 total hit points. Level 10 enemies high damage is 26 hit points. Considering action denial (through Winter Sleet) and average chances to hit, you'll entirely deny 3 level 10 enemies. So, the party is invulnerable against simple bashing enemies who don't attack the tree, deal AoE damage, move your companions out of the tree area (Step doesn't work) or focus on you. That's a whole lot of encounters.
At the same level, Protector's Sphere blocks 4 damage, your Champion's Reaction 12 or your Shield block 13. Considering the same conditions, you'll block 12/13 + 3*4 = 24/25 damage (or 37 if you went the Bastion route).
It is 3 times better than the Champion in ideal conditions. The Champion doesn't shut down encounters, this Kineticist does.
Now, I fully agree that it doesn't work in all conditions and that there are ways to go around it. But it clearly creates a weird situation for the GM. Normally, you can just play your monsters and the game works fine. You don't have to determine for each and every encounter when the monsters start using the tactics that work as their basic tactics (Strike) is completely shut down by a single character.
Remember that Deflecting Wave is good but it's not a fully Shield Block. Piercing damage like arrows, spears and specially jaws attacks (that are pretty common in many monsters like animals, bests and dragons) simply ignores it. I'm not saying that's a bad defensive reaction impulse but it isn't oh god!
And why the enemies couldn't Step way from the tree range? Outside corridors situation where's the three really shines why a GM will keep the enemies inside the tree range instead of move?
I agree with shroudb, in white paper and some specific situation the Tree will be pretty strong but in many real battle maps it probably just forces some enemies to move.
Oh you are right I confused its effect with the champion reaction effect that needs that enemy also still in the range.
But simply ignoring those next to it and targeting others does render it basically useless
Yes or just focus the caster!
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One thing to note about rebirth in living stone (aside from it being a stance and needing concentration on an element with no non overflow damage impulses) is that crit immunity doesn't protect you from critical hit effects. So if you were to get crit by something that also has you make a save or x happens, you wouldn't take extra damage but you would have to save like everyone else, your manipulate actions would still be disrupted on a reactive strike, etc. At high levels a lot of the scary stuff isn't so much damage, it's more the death effects or stuns or all of that stuff.
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I am not impressed with Molten Wire. Range is 15 feet. It does weak damage applying a clumsy 1. Not sure what they were going for with it, but it should have immobilized or done more. Clumsy 1 with no heightening and mediocre damage at super short range for 2 actions is not an attractive ability.
It looks cool in the mind's eye, but it's effect is so weak as to not be worth using.
The trick is that it's not save ends. The initial damage is real weak, but the first tick is basically guaranteed because the target has no way to get rid of it before their turn starts. The initial damage plus first tick is still somewhat weak, but not awful... and now the target has a choice to make. Either they just accept that "clumsy 1 and taking fire damage every round" is their life now, or they burn attack actions getting out of it - making escape checks or attacking it directly. If they decide to ignore it, you've just dropped a not entirely trivial debuff on the enemy for the rest of the fight. If they decide to break out, you've eaten up an action or two and you can reapply again later with another two actions and successful hitroll. It's not universally useful. Tossing it on mooks is kind of a waste. On the other hand, kineticists get lots of area effect attacks for dealing with mooks. Molten Wires is for those enemies where you'd be happy to trade your actions for their actions.
1. Clumsy 1 is often redundant once you have Synesthesia or another more powerful status modifier debuff which are extremely common at high level.
Molten Wire becomes available at level 6, so there's a decent span to go before you get to "high level". Sure, if you have a party that's built up with casters who will consistently apply Clumsy to all significant foes every round, it becomes less valuable. That's true. Kineticist is very much a party op class.
2. 4d4 to 4d6 damage isn't much at all with a basic reflex save. You're better off hitting with something that hits harder immediately. Things die too fast in most groups for Molten Wire to do more damage than a harder hitting ability that does weak opening damage hoping to do more damage as rounds go on.
Molten Wires isn't intended for fighting mooks unless you really don't have anything better for whatever reason... and your aura junction bonus damage doesn't care about the ref save unless they crit.
3. Your class DC compared to Athletics, Acrobatics, or Attack roll to escape makes it very easy to eliminate if the creature chooses to do.
It's not particularly difficult, but it does consume actions. They'll have to spend at least one to have a chance to get away at all, they might need two or three, and they're racking up MAP while they do it. It's not expected or intended to be inescapable. It's just a hassle that eats resources... and then you hit them with it again.
You forgot to add that for this setup, all of the allies and the enemies would have to be bunched up together and you would have to give up flanking said enemies.
Enemies are automatically Flat-Footed within your Aura so you don't care about Flanking. And you can riposte against ranged enemies with ranged attacks. If the enemies can't really affect you (ranged attacks even deal less damage than melee ones), the fight is just longer, not tougher.
For the Champion side, Sphere is not "4 damage reduction per round" it's "4 damage reduction PER ENEMY HIT"
I've counted it. I considered 3 enemies and as such 3 hits per round. You will rarely be hit much more than that. You also have one action available to heal every round if an enemy is a bit lucky.
Anyway, the Champion blocks 2-3 times less damage, so the comparison is clear.White room is very powerful, but actual gameplay starts poking the holes.
I've said it doesn't work always. But when it works it shuts down encounters, which is a pretty big deal in my opinion. And "enemies whose main damaging tool is Strikes" are pretty common. Shutting down these encounters means shutting down nearly half of the encounters.
Also, as the tree takes the damage, it also blocks effects related to Strikes (no poison and similar things). So the party really gets close to invulnerable with the Kineticist, which pushes everyone to not make a single step away from the tree.Overall, you block up to 70 damage and heal 22.5 with Ocean's Balm. A maxed out 2-action Heal at that level heals 62.5. And in the Kineticist's case it's an at-will power. So, clearly, it's out of bounds.
You are still not accounting for actions.
With 3 actions and a reaction, you can mitigate as high as 92.5 damage per round (and avoid a lot of statuses and conditions). I think "action efficiency" is irrelevant at that stage as the encounter is just broken. The Paladin is just unable to do half of that so once again I don't see the point of the comparison.
with a level 9 wood Kineticist
Great, our experiences would diverge. Well, technically, I will not inflict that to a GM. There are a few broken things out there, I point them out but don't use them.
Can't you keep casting protector Tree around the battlefield? Cast it next to the target taking the hits. You still have one action to do other things if you feel like it. Do it again and again to ruin the day of the enemy. You prevent so much damage a round that it's worth doing more than once. It doesn't impede movement. You still have one action to move or do some damage if you feel like it. There is no sustain.
Timber Sentinel seems like a heavy duty boss killer spell you can move around as needed.
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Can't you keep casting protector Tree around the battlefield? Cast it next to the target taking the hits. You still have one action to do other things if you feel like it. Do it again and again to ruin the day of the enemy. You prevent so much damage a round that it's worth doing more than once. It doesn't impede movement. You still have one action to move or do some damage if you feel like it. There is no sustain.
Timber Sentinel seems like a heavy duty boss killer spell you can move around as needed.
It's like a lvl 14 Aerokineticist making the entire party fly vs enemies that don't get ranged attacks.
It's like a lvl 14 Aerokineticist making the entire party fly vs enemies that don't get ranged attacks.
Protector Tree is available at level 1, and by level 14, the enemies really ought to have some kind of an answer for flight?
I'm really not sure what it is that you're trying to say here.
They look at Air and go "invisible flier with an extra move each turn, by level 8? Sign me up."
And if you remove the powers that makes you fly and invisible, no one looks at Air anymore. Water signature power is Winter Sleet. If you don't take it then you look at Water and it's all meh.
For informational purposes, for first chance to hit around 50%, there is NO level where the average dpr between the two options differs by even 3 points. Levels 1-8, 2a is better. Levels 13+, 2x1a is better. But always the difference is <3 points.
According to Citriking's tool, taking a 1d8 EB with no Strength, 2x1a gets better as early as level 5 and does 25% more damage at high level. I don't know what you call a difference < 3 points.
I think our major difference here is how we table play ttrpgs. I do not compare 2a EB + 1a EB to [Other impulse EB] + 1a EB because we kibitz, so that no player is going to choose the first out of ignorance. It sounds like for you, that might happen. So you'd prefer the rules to address it.
I've seen groups where some player's good ideas were shut down by other players. The tactical acumen of a group is not always the tactical acumen of its most tactical members. So overall, I have just accepted that not everyone will play like me (actually, very few players play like me, I have in general a quite unique way of interacting with tactical games).
It's not a bad impulse but honestly IMO there's better options for fire/metal impulses even for single target.
Maybe it can be useful if you plan to use your 3rd-action to Rise a Shield or move but if your plan is to blast it doesn't worth.
Assuming metal/fire
1: Weapon Infusion, Flying Flame, and Metal Carapace, using the shield block.2: Extended Kinesis for out of combat utility. Generate and shape metal for all sorts of stuff.
4: Thermal Nimbus, avoiding any overflows.
5: Fire Weakness Aura, maybe Plate in Treasure.
Then the other level 6 metal/fire options are...
Crawling Fire, which is terrible.
Consume Power, which is decent.
Scrap Barricade, 3 action overflow, and thus stops Thermal Nimbus/aura.
Volcanic Escape, overflow that stops Thermal Nimbus/aura.
So it's a toss up between Consume Power and Molten Wire. Depending if you want defense or damage.
And level 9 the metal aura is a situational accuracy boost to Molten Wire too.
Can't you keep casting protector Tree around the battlefield? Cast it next to the target taking the hits. You still have one action to do other things if you feel like it. Do it again and again to ruin the day of the enemy. You prevent so much damage a round that it's worth doing more than once. It doesn't impede movement. You still have one action to move or do some damage if you feel like it. There is no sustain.
Timber Sentinel seems like a heavy duty boss killer spell you can move around as needed.
You can, and it is in those fights that enemies simply stand and strike that it shines.
But nothing prevents a boss to simply walk away and smack someone not adjacent to the tree.
That's why I said that it shines in some occasions, it flops in others. Circumstances like spread apart enemies, things with breath, engulf, awesome blow, casters, multihit, and etc are the downsides of it.
But as long as it's a straightforward "sit still and trade blows" situation, it's great.
IMO the Tree is too complex to discuss in whiteroom (it's not a simple question of DPR). Someone has the real experience with it to say how it really is?
It's not a bad impulse but honestly IMO there's better options for fire/metal impulses even for single target.
Maybe it can be useful if you plan to use your 3rd-action to Rise a Shield or move but if your plan is to blast it doesn't worth.
Assuming metal/fire
1: Weapon Infusion, Flying Flame, and Metal Carapace, using the shield block.
2: Extended Kinesis for out of combat utility. Generate and shape metal for all sorts of stuff.
4: Thermal Nimbus, avoiding any overflows.
5: Fire Weakness Aura, maybe Plate in Treasure.Then the other level 6 metal/fire options are...
Crawling Fire, which is terrible.
Consume Power, which is decent.
Scrap Barricade, 3 action overflow, and thus stops Thermal Nimbus/aura.
Volcanic Escape, overflow that stops Thermal Nimbus/aura.
So it's a toss up between Consume Power and Molten Wire. Depending if you want defense or damage.
And level 9 the metal aura is a situational accuracy boost to Molten Wire too.
I was putting together a conceptual build here to discuss this. But halfway through the process I remembered that I don't like the fire and metal build, honestly it's a build that I don't think goes well together. So I gave up arguing :P
IMO the Tree is too complex to discuss in whiteroom (it's not a simple question of DPR). Someone has the real experience with it to say how it really is?
Unfortunately, someone experience is not someone else's. Especially with the Protector Tree that is dependent on 2 important things:
- How the party interact with it. If your fellow teammates just rush the enemies ignoring the tree it will be mostly useless. If they learn to interact with it, it will be much more helpful.- How the GM plays its monsters. It's one of these abilities that is very GM and monster dependent. Once again, it'll lead to very different results.
And then you can add the factor that varies between every experience: the player themselves.
Now, I think there are some obvious signs that the tree is too strong:
- It's balanced against a max rank slotted spell. At-will spell-like abilities (like Focus Spells or Impulses) are balanced against lower rank spells (1 or 2 ranks under the max slot).
- It's not an Overflow Impulse when all spell-like Impulses are Overflow ones. Cantrip-like Impulses are the ones without Overflow.
- Protector Tree is a good spell. There are some very bad spells that shouldn't be considered equivalent to at-rank spells. But Protector Tree is definitely a good spell.
Molten wire is relying on a few things to go right for it to be worthwhile. Against a higher level enemy you need AC lowered enough to reliably hit and high reflex to mitigate the damage gain from splitting between a save and regular attack and therefore the higher chance to hit weakness twice. Against lower level enemies you need them to somehow not get focus fired and blown up before the persistent damage ticks. In both cases, one tick of fire damage won't cut it either but at least the big boss might survive to eat a second tick unlike a mook.
Though my preference for direct damage is probably desert wind air/earth rather than anything fire based. Once you start getting double or triple boomerang value on targets it's hard to beat, the utility is great and the easier action economy from air's free movement makes getting optimal turns easier.
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I also like Desert wind + Boomerang spam on a math level, not as high of a ceiling as Fire kineticist unless you get 3 damage ticks, but lots of utility on top.
That said, I'm pretty sure I would find it quite boring after a while. You are basically locking yourself out on a single damaging impulse for the rest of your career. From 1 to 20.
Can't you keep casting protector Tree around the battlefield? Cast it next to the target taking the hits. You still have one action to do other things if you feel like it. Do it again and again to ruin the day of the enemy. You prevent so much damage a round that it's worth doing more than once. It doesn't impede movement. You still have one action to move or do some damage if you feel like it. There is no sustain.
Timber Sentinel seems like a heavy duty boss killer spell you can move around as needed.
You can, and it is in those fights that enemies simply stand and strike that it shines.
But nothing prevents a boss to simply walk away and smack someone not adjacent to the tree.
That's why I said that it shines in some occasions, it flops in others. Circumstances like spread apart enemies, things with breath, engulf, awesome blow, casters, multihit, and etc are the downsides of it.
But as long as it's a straightforward "sit still and trade blows" situation, it's great.
You have to think of this in the group dynamic.
Tripping them certainly does stop them from walking away and avoiding the tree without a severe cost in actions, risking reactions, and providing a huge action advantage to the group to absolutely slaughter the boss or enemy while the creature avoids the little tree.
So far I very much like fire and earth. That thermal nimbus with the fire aura junction coupled with Aura Shaping adds up to a lot of passive damage.
Flying Flame is far more surgical than quite a few of the AoE kineticist attacks making it easier to use.
Main downside of fire is the number of fire immune or resistance creatures without the fire trait or aren't made of fire.
Then you start switching to cold thermal nimbus and earth powers.
I like the whole living volcano vibe of Earth and Fire.
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It has the best kineticist reaction at level 1.
Sole point I agree with you.
it has the best level 1 heal for kineticist.
Still, it's not a good heal. Battle Medicine doesn't ask for class options and is nearly as good as Ocean's Balm (and massively better if you go Medic).
The ability to heal+move a target is also very strong.
Torrent in Blood is meh. Super circumstantial to me.
Someone is picking up water due to its heals and displacements, not due to winter sleet.
Water doesn't have any single-target strong healing. It basically has access to 1-action and 3-action Heal with a few extra effects. I've played enough healers to know these are not the strong "heals". I wouldn't expect a Water Kineticist to "heal" the party, it's only supplemental healing.
Hurricane is amongst the best blasts of kineticist.
Subpar damage (especially inside dungeons). Massive area (not an asset, I've played with Eclipse Burst far enough to know it's super hard to position). Prone on failure is cool but not awesome. Fortitude save, Overflow, Composite, 3 actions, doesn't affect flyers, physical damage... Hard pass for me. If that is "one of the best blasts of Kineticist" then it gives a good idea of why I rate Kineticist so low if you don't take the overpowered options.
The ability to move, with so many different ways, enemies
I've played with such effects (Tidal Surge with my Tempest Oracle), it's super circumstantial (unless you can do it with a reaction like Liberators).
You can make an effective kineticist with water without using winter sleet
I disagree. You can make a playable character, but not an effective one. You'll be very akin to an Alchemist: a bit of healing, a bit of damage, a bit of utility. No out of combat utility but more AoE effects. So Alchemist's level of efficiency. Winter Sleet is the reason to go Hydrokineticist (unless you use Water as a side element with your main element being another one).
I was putting together a conceptual build here to discuss this. But halfway through the process I remembered that I don't like the fire and metal build, honestly it's a build that I don't think goes well together. So I gave up arguing :P
Can't say I'm a big fan of metal either.
Too much about being rusted and breaking. Your armor breaks, the wall breaks, shields shatter..
Could of been better if they gave you proficiency in heavy metal armor, and let you make attacks with metal weapons using your impulse attack.
Plus stuff like Iron Shackles, Ball Bearing / Caltrops zones, and I can't believe they didn't do an Iron Maiden impulse.
Themed more around binding chains and such would of been a lot cooler IMO.
IMO the Tree is too complex to discuss in whiteroom (it's not a simple question of DPR). Someone has the real experience with it to say how it really is?Unfortunately, someone experience is not someone else's. Especially with the Protector Tree that is dependent on 2 important things:
- How the party interact with it. If your fellow teammates just rush the enemies ignoring the tree it will be mostly useless. If they learn to interact with it, it will be much more helpful.
- How the GM plays its monsters. It's one of these abilities that is very GM and monster dependent. Once again, it'll lead to very different results.
Plus the rule problem of ally and how people play it. It is an annoying rule in that some people play it very differently to how it is technically written. I agree with them - it is perverse that it does not protect the caster.
Plus the available room to maneuver in the encounter. Often there is not much, in which case it is unavoidable.Now, I think there are some obvious signs that the tree is too strong:
- It's balanced against a max rank slotted spell. At-will spell-like abilities (like Focus Spells or Impulses) are balanced against lower rank spells (1 or 2 ranks under the max slot).
- It's not an Overflow Impulse when all spell-like Impulses are Overflow ones. Cantrip-like Impulses are the ones without Overflow.
- Protector Tree is a good spell. There are some very bad spells that shouldn't be considered equivalent to at-rank spells. But Protector Tree is definitely a good spell.
As an Impulse it probably is too strong.
...It has the best kineticist reaction at level 1.
Sole point I agree with you.
it has the best level 1 heal for kineticist.
Still, it's not a good heal. Battle Medicine doesn't ask for class options and is nearly as good as Ocean's Balm (and massively better if you go Medic).
The ability to heal+move a target is also very strong.
Torrent in Blood is meh. Super circumstantial to me.
Someone is picking up water due to its heals and displacements, not due to winter sleet.Water doesn't have any single-target strong healing. It basically has access to 1-action and 3-action Heal with a few extra effects. I've played enough healers to know these are not the strong "heals". I wouldn't expect a Water Kineticist to "heal" the party, it's only supplemental healing.
Hurricane is amongst the best blasts of kineticist.Subpar damage (especially inside dungeons). Massive area (not an asset, I've played with Eclipse Burst far enough to know it's super hard to position). Prone on failure is cool but not awesome. Fortitude save, Overflow, Composite, 3 actions, doesn't affect flyers, physical damage... Hard pass for me. If that is "one of the best blasts of Kineticist" then it gives a good idea of why I rate Kineticist so low if you don't take the overpowered options.
The ability to move, with so many different ways, enemiesI've played with such effects (Tidal Surge with my Tempest Oracle), it's super circumstantial (unless you can do it with a reaction like Liberators).
You can make an effective kineticist with water without using winter sleetI disagree. You can make a playable character, but not an effective one. You'll be very akin to an Alchemist: a bit of healing, a bit of damage, a bit of utility. No out of combat utility but more AoE effects. So Alchemist's level of
Anyone can play the way we do. Trip is not an uncommon tactic. The point is you can leverage the tree to be incredibly effective rendering quite a few fights trivial, especially single target boss fights.
Then again, I have not used it yet, so my view is theoretical.
I do have protector tree memorized on a few primal characters. I haven't used it on them. My group generally kills far too fast to need something like the tree. We're so offense focused and built for such extreme offense, it isn't worth a slot to cast protector tree. I imagine if it were an impulse, might be more willing to use more often.