I'm going to play a campaign that takes place in a magical college, the only restraint that the GM gave us is that we have to play classes that use magic in some way to fit the setting (doesn't need to be full caster and can be of any tradition). Third party is allowed if approved by him.
I usually play necromancer types but since the country we'll be in is not very friendly to undead and my character will have to return to the academy (since it's the main setting) I think walking around with a bunch of undead will be a little difficult, unless I hide them somewhere. So I thought about another type of character: A Void Cleric of the Dark Tapestry subdomain focused on summoning monsters into battle and perhaps taking the Master of Shrouds prestige class from 3.5 if the GM allows it so I can summon ghosts and still be a little bit of a necromancer.
Is cleric a good class for summoning? Or would a wizard be better? I just loved the flavour of the Void domain and since the campaign won't be too hardcore I'm not worried about power levels, so unless the wizard is A LOT better than the cleric for summons I think I'll just go with what I already want.
The herald caller archetype is good in general and pretty good at summoning. The big hurdle is accessing standard action summoning. Clerics do this with the sacred summons feat, but that only works with creatures whose subtypes match your cleric aura exactly. It’s a fairly short list no matter what your alignment.
Is the summoner class an option? Spirit summoner with dark tapestry spirit could fit your flavor pretty well. But that doesn’t summon monsters other than your eidolon.
You could also look at a Dark Tapestry oracle, possibly with the haunted curse and the spirit guide archetype. The spirit guide's Bonded Spirit ability would allow the character to lean into necromancy via the Bones spirit (or a different spirit chosen at the start of the day).
You may also want to consider the Versatile Summon Monster feat for some additional template options with summon monster spells.
The spiritualist class may also be an option to look at.
An Oracle of Shadow is another that is fairly decent. Army of Darkness lets you take augumented summoning without having to take spell focus conjuration. It allows you to apply the shadow creature template. Dark Secrets gives you some illusion spells and you can gain a few more by taking the shadow bound curse. Take spell focus illusion and really confuse people by playing an illusionist. Shadow Master makes your shadow spells more potent. Swapping between real summons and illusion will make it really hard to figure out what your character is really doing. Shadow evocation will give you some damaging spells.
One good tactic would be to become invisible, use shadow step to move where your targets are and summon up monsters to attack them. Then leave by casting another shadow step. You could even do this to a sealed location.
The herald caller archetype is good in general and pretty good at summoning. The big hurdle is accessing standard action summoning. Clerics do this with the sacred summons feat, but that only works with creatures whose subtypes match your cleric aura exactly. It’s a fairly short list no matter what your alignment.
Is the summoner class an option? Spirit summoner with dark tapestry spirit could fit your flavor pretty well. But that doesn’t summon monsters other than your eidolon.
Any class with spell slots will do, so summoner is a go.
I had given the Herald Caller archetype some thought, but losing the ability to summon creatures who don't match my deity seems like a bad trade? I also thought about Spirit Caller, but I have an issue with losing the Summon Monster ability and only getting the Alien Summons Hex at level 6 (we're starting from level 3). I thought about Master Summoner since we're a three player group and maybe we could use some monsters to beef up our lineup, it wouldn't fit the flavour I'm looking for but I could ask the GM to reflavour it, since it won't change much
An Oracle of Shadow is another that is fairly decent. Army of Darkness lets you take augumented summoning without having to take spell focus conjuration. It allows you to apply the shadow creature template. Dark Secrets gives you some illusion spells and you can gain a few more by taking the shadow bound curse. Take spell focus illusion and really confuse people by playing an illusionist. Shadow Master makes your shadow spells more potent. Swapping between real summons and illusion will make it really hard to figure out what your character is really doing. Shadow evocation will give you some damaging spells.
One good tactic would be to become invisible, use shadow step to move where your targets are and summon up monsters to attack them. Then leave by casting another shadow step. You could even do this to a sealed location.
Oh, that seems like a solid plan. Shadow mystery is a really powerful mystery I've been wanting to play for a while since I've read the Oracle Guide by Allerseelen's. Army of Darkness can be flavored quite nicely for what I have in mind, I like it. You think it's worth taking the Spirit Guide archetype with this mistery? Since it has so many good revelations I think it might be a bad trade. We're starting at level 3 btw
I would not bother with the spirit guide archetype; the shadow mystery has some really good revelations, so giving up 3 revelations does not seem to be worth it. I would probably start off with the Army of Darkness and cloak of Darkness revelations to start with. Add Dark Secrets at 7th and Shadow Mastery at 11th.
The Oracle spell list actually has a surprising number of illusion spells that fit this mystery. Make sure to use your normal spell slots to grab those and don’t waste your Dark Secret slots. Shadow Trap is only 1st level but seems fairly decent. Depending on your alignment Visions of Hell might work. Shadow barbs might also be worth taking.
For race go with one that gives extra spells and take all the monster summoning spells. Choose to use the inflict spells instead of cure and you will have at least two attack spells per spell level without even using your mystery spells, normal spells known or dark secrets.
The vampirism curse might also be a good choice for the curse. It does not give as many useful spells but would let you use inflict wounds spells to cure yourself. Personally, I would probably go with Shadow Bound for the curse.
You can grab extra revelations with a feat. Spirit guide archetype is amazing with the right combos.
I would not bother with the spirit guide archetype; the shadow mystery has some really good revelations, so giving up 3 revelations does not seem to be worth it. I would probably start off with the Army of Darkness and cloak of Darkness revelations to start with. Add Dark Secrets at 7th and Shadow Mastery at 11th.
The Oracle spell list actually has a surprising number of illusion spells that fit this mystery. Make sure to use your normal spell slots to grab those and don’t waste your Dark Secret slots. Shadow Trap is only 1st level but seems fairly decent. Depending on your alignment Visions of Hell might work. Shadow barbs might also be worth taking.
For race go with one that gives extra spells and take all the monster summoning spells. Choose to use the inflict spells instead of cure and you will have at least two attack spells per spell level without even using your mystery spells, normal spells known or dark secrets.
The vampirism curse might also be a good choice for the curse. It does not give as many useful spells but would let you use inflict wounds spells to cure yourself. Personally, I would probably go with Shadow Bound for the curse.
I'll be playing a Munavri since the GM allowed, they get 120ft darkvision and already have light blindness, so I already get the 1st and 5th level benefits AND the drawbacks of the shadowbound curse, so I think I won't be taking that XD. I'm thinking of taking the Haunted, Vampirism or Lich curses.
You can grab extra revelations with a feat. Spirit guide archetype is amazing with the right combos.
The issue is that summoning builds are very feat costly. Augment summons, superior summons, I don't think I can afford to use my feats on getting revelations
Of those curses I would probably go with Vampirism. Lich gives you Undead Anatomy I & II at the same level. Its other powers are not really all that great. Vampirism gives you a bonus vs channel energy and DR.
I noticed that Aboleth is on the list of languages a Munarvi can choose as a starting language. The Aboleth curse might be something that fits the character. It gives more spells including Charm Person and Minor Image.
Giving up Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation as free spells is tough. You can use Dark Secrets to pick them up but that reduces the number of other illusions you have access to. Giving up the extra spells known as your FCB is even harder. But if you already had something in mind it is your character.
I could see using extra revelations at higher level even without the spirit guide archetype. The revelations form the shadow mystery are some of the best.
Of those curses I would probably go with Vampirism. Lich gives you Undead Anatomy I & II at the same level. Its other powers are not really all that great. Vampirism gives you a bonus vs channel energy and DR.
I noticed that Aboleth is on the list of languages a Munarvi can choose as a starting language. The Aboleth curse might be something that fits the character. It gives more spells including Charm Person and Minor Image.
Giving up Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation as free spells is tough. You can use Dark Secrets to pick them up but that reduces the number of other illusions you have access to. Giving up the extra spells known as your FCB is even harder. But if you already had something in mind it is your character.
I could see using extra revelations at higher level even without the spirit guide archetype. The revelations form the shadow mystery are some of the best.
The Aboleth curse could be good too, I rolled really well for my character (two 17's, one 16, one 18, nothing bellow a 12) and Will is an Oracle's good save so a -2 to mental effects shouldn't hurt too much. I could also flavor it as instead of being the effect an Aboleth, just being a drawback of his connection the the Dark Tapestry, since it makes people insane.
Another point of contingency though is the spell level. I'll only be able to cast summon creature I which I think will be quite weak at level 3. I never played an Oracle focused on summoning since I'm usually a necromancer, so there might be something I'm not seeing but won't my summons be much weaker than if I were to pick a cleric?
Spontaneous casters are 1 level behind on spell access, but have similar spell slots. As 3rd level Oracle you will be able to cast 5 1st level spell, A 3rd level Cleric will have 3 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells including domain spells. At 4th level you will get 6 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells, the cleric will have 5 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells. the Cleric gets 5 spells of each level (plus those for high WIS) max, The Oracle gets 6 (Plus those for high CHA).
Spontaneous casters have a different play style than memorized casters. In theory the memorized caster is slightly more powerful because they can tailor their spell selection to fit the situation. In practice this is often not the case because the player does not memorize the right spells. Unless you have perfect knowledge of what your encounters will be choosing the right spells is often difficult. The spontaneous caster can cast any spell he knows so has more flexibility on casting. Where spontaneous casters have to be careful is choosing their spells known.
One thing a summon focused oracle is much better at is flooding the board with summons. The cleric can cast a summon spell as often as they memorized it. An oracle can keep casting it till he runs out of slots. This is sometimes frowned upon due to slowing down the game, but in your case the party is smaller than normal and may actually be appreciated.
All Alien Summons does is make the summoned creature immune to the extra damage from critical hits or precision damage. While that is a good ability, I fail to see how it is massively better than getting the advanced template once per day.
Focusing the entire character on summons is probably not a good idea. A character that has multiple choices in combat is usually the strongest. When you are a one trick pony you gain a reputation for that trick and you opponents tend to neutralize that trick.
You can grab extra revelations with a feat. Spirit guide archetype is amazing with the right combos.The issue is that summoning builds are very feat costly. Augment summons, superior summons, I don't think I can afford to use my feats on getting revelations
It's not not feat expensive, but shadow lets you skip at least one of those feats:
Army of Darkness (Su): Whenever you cast a summon monster spell and summon a creature that normally has the celestial or fiendish template, you can instead summon it with the shadow creature template (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 4 238). This revelation counts as having the Spell Focus (conjuration) feat for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of the Augment Summoning feat, as well as any feat that lists Augment Summoning as a prerequisite.
Meanwhile, using spirit guide to get dark tapestry spirit can give you this:
Alien Summons (Su): Whenever the shaman calls or summons one or more creatures, one creature of her choice arrives with the advanced creature simple template. The creature presents a distorted mockery of the usual creature summoned, its body deformed and alien in nature. This chosen creature’s anatomy is so confounding that it is immune to the additional damage from critical hits or precision damage (such as that granted by sneak attack).
And really that option devalues the usefulness of superior summons.
You can grab extra revelations with a feat. Spirit guide archetype is amazing with the right combos.The issue is that summoning builds are very feat costly. Augment summons, superior summons, I don't think I can afford to use my feats on getting revelationsIt's not not feat expensive, but shadow lets you skip at least one of those feats:
Army of Darkness (Su): Whenever you cast a summon monster spell and summon a creature that normally has the celestial or fiendish template, you can instead summon it with the shadow creature template (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 4 238). This revelation counts as having the Spell Focus (conjuration) feat for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of the Augment Summoning feat, as well as any feat that lists Augment Summoning as a prerequisite.Meanwhile, using spirit guide to get dark tapestry spirit can give you this:
Alien Summons (Su): Whenever the shaman calls or summons one or more creatures, one creature of her choice arrives with the advanced creature simple template. The creature presents a distorted mockery of the usual creature summoned, its body deformed and alien in nature. This chosen creature’s anatomy is so confounding that it is immune to the additional damage from critical hits or precision damage (such as that granted by sneak attack).And really that option devalues the usefulness of superior summons.
It will allow me to skip one of those feats indeed. I can see why immunity to critical hits and specially the advanced creature template can be game changers, but is it really worth giving up feats to get the revelations of the Shadow Oracle? Also, I can only use this Hex if I attune to the Dark Tapestry spirit, which basically means I'd be locked into that single spirit if I want to make use of it. But I guess I can make due, basically the feat selection would look like this if I take Spirit Guide (once I reach level 5)
1st- Summon Evil Monster (Since Army of Darkness only works if the summoned creature would have the fiendish or celestial template, also allows me to summon as a standard action)
3rd- Extra Revelation (Dark Secrets)
5th- Augment Summons
I think it might be controversial to delay Augmented Summons, but if I take the Alien Summons Hex I can just apply the Advanced Template on it which will make up for it. BTW, can I use two templates on a summoned creature? Using Summon Evil monster and then replacing the Fiendish template with the Shadow Template whislt still keeping the Advanced template from Alien Summons? I think not, but still worth asking.
Spontaneous casters are 1 level behind on spell access, but have similar spell slots. As 3rd level Oracle you will be able to cast 5 1st level spell, A 3rd level Cleric will have 3 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells including domain spells. At 4th level you will get 6 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells, the cleric will have 5 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells. the Cleric gets 5 spells of each level (plus those for high WIS) max, The Oracle gets 6 (Plus those for high CHA).
Spontaneous casters have a different play style than memorized casters. In theory the memorized caster is slightly more powerful because they can tailor their spell selection to fit the situation. In practice this is often not the case because the player does not memorize the right spells. Unless you have perfect knowledge of what your encounters will be choosing the right spells is often difficult. The spontaneous caster can cast any spell he knows so has more flexibility on casting. Where spontaneous casters have to be careful is choosing their spells known.
One thing a summon focused oracle is much better at is flooding the board with summons. The cleric can cast a summon spell as often as they memorized it. An oracle can keep casting it till he runs out of slots. This is sometimes frowned upon due to slowing down the game, but in your case the party is smaller than normal and may actually be appreciated.
All Alien Summons does is make the summoned creature immune to the extra damage from critical hits or precision damage. While that is a good ability, I fail to see how it is massively better than getting the advanced template once per day.
Focusing the entire character on summons is probably not a good idea. A character that has multiple choices in combat is usually the strongest. When you are a one trick pony you gain a reputation for that trick and you opponents tend to neutralize that trick.
While I see your point on everything else and really think Oracle is the choice for me now, that's not all that Alien Summons does.
Alien Summons (Su): Whenever the shaman calls or summons one or more creatures, one creature of her choice arrives with the advanced creature simple template. The creature presents a distorted mockery of the usual creature summoned, its body deformed and alien in nature. This chosen creature’s anatomy is so confounding that it is immune to the additional damage from critical hits or precision damage (such as that granted by sneak attack).
The Advanced creature template is a HUGE boost that basically gives a +2 to natural armor and +4 to all status of the base creature, essentially increasing it's AC by 4 and all of it's rolls, including attack and damage, by 2. Which is honestly better than the Shadow template. The advantage of the shadow template is that it can be used to replace the fiendish template from "Summon Evil Monster", which allows you to summon as a standard action.
And don't worry, I don't plan on being simply a summoner, I'm also planning to use darkness spells for battlefield control and debuffing enemies, I'll also have 20-21 dex thanks to the Munavri ancestry so combined with invisibility I'll be the perfect scout since my party seems to be focusing on damage dealing (the others are a Magus and a Bloodrager)
Army of Darkness is also doing two things. Shadow creature template is not a clear upgrade over celestial or fiendish. And a small earth elemental will still outperform a shadow ram for most encounters. Army of darkness is more about giving you free spell focus, and then it also has that extra option for some situations.
As far as I know, you can stack as many templates as you qualify for
Army of Darkness is also doing two things. Shadow creature template is not a clear upgrade over celestial or fiendish. And a small earth elemental will still outperform a shadow ram for most encounters. Army of darkness is more about giving you free spell focus, and then it also has that extra option for some situations.
As far as I know, you can stack as many templates as you qualify for
That is true and since we're not eliminating the tax feat rule then that is a necessity, though for the sake of increasing the summons powers from the start I believe I'd delay Summon Evil Monster untill 5th level, take Augment Summons as a 1st level feat and then Extra Revelations for Dark Secrets at 3rd level. It'll make my summons stronger at the cost of not being able to summon as a standard action, you think that's a bad trade and I should focus on being able to summon as a standard action over making my summons stronger? Thanks for all the advice so far btw.
Standard action summons is enormously valuable. If a combat is decided in perhaps the first four rounds then bringing the additional forces in the first round rather the second makes a substantial difference.the Summon Evil Monster standard action summon effect isn’t really full standard action summon; the summons can’t act until an extra turn after being summoned. So timing wise, pretty much the same speed as one round, just with less risk of concentration breaking. And you get the extra move action. (is why i was looking at Elemental Mystery for this; elementals are good beatsticks at most levels of SM).
That's not entirely right, while the summon can't attack straight away it can still make Aoo's, provide flanking or just be a shield for an ally right away. The benefits are pretty good I'm just in doubt whether it's better than a +4 to str and con.
One point against evil summon monster is that the duration starts on that round. So at level 1, you summon the monster and then it stands around until your next turn where it expires.
1 round casting times aren't great, but for most instances it won't make a huge difference to wait one round till your monster is on the scene. You may be surprised that losing the move action is often the bigger loss. At low level, the duration won't last through most fights either way. At higher levels you can try other options like heighten mount and altered summoned monster, to have summons that last until you can use them up.
One point against evil summon monster is that the duration starts on that round. So at level 1, you summon the monster and then it stands around until your next turn where it expires.
1 round casting times aren't great, but for most instances it won't make a huge difference to wait one round till your monster is on the scene. You may be surprised that losing the move action is often the bigger loss. At low level, the duration won't last through most fights either way. At higher levels you can try other options like heighten mount and altered summoned monster, to have summons that last until you can use them up.
I see, it would last for 3 rounds then. I'm honestly not fully decided on it yet, Augment Summoning would give a bonus to attacks and durability, but Summon Evil monster would allow me to use the Shadow template on more creatures sooner, which are both good but perhaps Augmented is better since I'm starting at a lower level.