Good morning all,
Our group is going to be starting Gatewalkers soon, and I'll be playing my first PF2E character.
My concept for the character is a support/4E-style defender. I'm repurposing an old PF1E Oradin concept that I never got to play.
We're using free archetype, and we're not stressed about using free archetype to build extremely optimized characters.
My teammates will be:
* A poppet Construct Summoner with the Familiar Master archetype (she'll be a tiny poppet familiar, a small poppet character, and a medium poppet eidolon.)
* A human nephilim Faith's Flamekeeper witch, leaning towards the Blessed One archetype.
* A human Way of the Drifter gunslinger with the Cavalier archetype.
I'll be playing an adopted (by gnomes) human Redeemer Champion of Shyka the Many.
My plan is to take Shield Ally and Everstand Stance to boost my Shield's hardness as high as I can, then pair that with Shield Warden and eventually Shield of Reckoning. I'm also looking to take Deity's Domain (Time) for a long-range reaction to delay incoming damage to my allies so we can reposition for my Redeemer reaction before the hit goes through.
Along with that, I'm thinking of starting at +3 STR and +3 CHA to provide additional support with Bon Mot and Intimidating Glare (IG provided by the Total Power Background.)
All that's pretty well settled and I feel really comfortable with it.
Where I'm worried that I might be hurting myself is with my Archetype choice, and I wanted to run it past some more experienced 2E players: I'd like to take the Witch Dedication with the Spinner of Threads patron to further represent my character's relationship with Shyka the Many. I'd be picking up Basic Lesson - Lesson of Life for a long-ranged focus heal spell.
It's also "important" for my character to have a familiar, which I could easily get with Animal Accomplice from my Ancestry feat, but I've really fallen in love with the idea of taking Animal Elocutionist now that it's a 1st level feat - so Witch Dedication also gets me the familiar that I want (I don't want to take the Familiar Master since another character in the party is taking it.)
So, how badly would I be screwing myself with a
STR +3 / Dex +1 / Con +0 / Int +2 / Wis +0 / Cha +3 starting array?
I could swap the +1 from Dex to Con easily enough, but I won't have a high enough Str to use Full Plate until 5th level. I am planning on picking up the Toughness feat, and I'll be boosting Con at 5 and 10, but would I be making a blunder by starting with a +2 Int? The extra languages seem like they could be handy with Bon Mot, same with being able to use Bon Mot on animals with Animal Elocutionist. But is the extra hardness on my shield and the fast healing focus spell enough to cover the hit point loss?
Thanks!
One of the things I love about PF2 is that...
build extremely optimized characters.
My teammates will be:
* A poppet Construct Summoner with the Familiar Master archetype (she'll be a tiny poppet familiar, a small poppet character, and a medium poppet eidolon.)
a character can be designed as Russian Nesting Dolls - and also be an extremely optimized character.
Yeah, your champion character idea is probably fine. +3 STR is fine. It isn't ideal - but it doesn't need to be in order to be playable.
As for Witch archetype, that should be fine. Lesson of Life is a bit redundant with Lay On Hands, but as you noted, Lesson of Life is ranged. If you find that you don't like it as much, you can retrain. Retraining to a different lesson (or a different feat entirely) only costs downtime. And if the GM is feeling generous because you are retraining something that you were experimenting with rather than a planned retraining as part of your character build, the GM may not require much downtime for the retraining.
My concerns are in a bit different of an area.
Delay Consequence is a reaction. So it competes with your Glimpse of Redemption Champion Reaction. You only have one reaction each round.
Also the duration of Delay Consequence is 1 Round and since you are the caster - but the spell is not cast on your turn... There are some questions regarding timing of when the delay effect ends.
Make sure to work out with your GM on exactly how that works and whether you can actually use your reaction for Delay Consequence, then get your reaction back at the start of your turn and then use your reaction again before the Delay Consequence effect ends.
Edit: Also, timing aside, there is also the Limitations on Triggers. It is again up to your GM if 'an enemy damages your ally' (Glimpse of Redemption) and 'A creature or object within range is hit by an attack' (Delay Consequence) are the same event and so you can only react to it once. Even if it is at different times during a round.
My concerns are in a bit different of an area.
Delay Consequence is a reaction. So it competes with your Glimpse of Redemption Champion Reaction. You only have one reaction each round.
Also the duration of Delay Consequence is 1 Round and since you are the caster - but the spell is not cast on your turn... There are some questions regarding timing of when the delay effect ends.
Make sure to work out with your GM on exactly how that works and whether you can actually use your reaction for Delay Consequence, then get your reaction back at the start of your turn and then use your reaction again before the Delay Consequence effect ends.
Edit: Also, timing aside, there is also the Limitations on Triggers. It is again up to your GM if 'an enemy damages your ally' (Glimpse of Redemption) and 'A creature or object...
Thanks for the feedback! Yeah, Delay Consequences will be more "emergency" than general use (especially since it's also a focus spell), but our interpretation is that it delays the hit until the start of the enemy's turn - we're aware that there's some conflicting information with how 1 round means it *should* end, but given the whole line about it being dismissible (which wouldn't ever be possible to do if it ended at the top of the caster's turn), we believe the intent is for it to remain active for 1 full round and that it's just not worded/formatted correctly. But great call out!
We'll hammer out whether or not Glimpse of Redemption should be able to trigger when the damage goes through, because that's a great point. Even if not, I think it's still situationally useful enough to be helpful *and* it still gets me that extra Focus Point that I can use for LoH instead.
My main concern was whether it was a huge mistake to leave my Con at +0 and whether I was appropriately assessing the value of a +1 Dex (and therefore whether I needed to drop my Int and ditch the witch idea.)
You're going to feel that con dump. Skimming through the AP, there are monsters with high DC fort targeting effects (and reflex too) all over the place just at level 1 so I suspect you'll spend a lot of the time on the floor or just straight up dying before hitting level 2.
You're going to feel that con dump. Skimming through the AP, there are monsters with high DC fort targeting effects (and reflex too) all over the place just at level 1 so I suspect you'll spend a lot of the time on the floor or just straight up dying before hitting level 2.
Thanks for the insider insight - that's what I was worried about. Sounds like I should look to rely on Bulwark from full plate for my Reflex.
In your estimation, would a +1 Con to start be sufficient, or should I push for a +2?
The game in general is balanced around giving you a 50~60 baseline chance of success with maximum investment. A 16/+3 con with expert fort would give you a 60% success chance against the DC 17 fort saves you get hit with (from a level 1 creature) for instance. It's up to you where you draw the line of what an acceptable risk is. Just keep that in mind when you look at that 10/+0 con and 10/+0 wis.
Champion also starts with Expert Fortitude and Expert Will at level 1. So that is a point in their favor (well, two points actually) when compared to going +0 CON or +0 WIS with other classes that only get trained at 1st instead.
Yeah, like people above are saying you really ought to get some CON. I usually recommend 14 for frontline characters, but on a defender especially I'd treat 14 as the bare minimum. You can compensate to some extent with feats like Toughness (which you'd more than likely be getting regardless of CON) and items like a Belt of Good Health, but there really is no replacing a decent Constitution score. You'll definitely feel the difference come levels 3 and beyond.
What I'd be extremely wary about is using Everstand Stance as-is: that cool shield you're holding in both hands is, at the same time, your weapon and your first line of defense. If you use Shield Block a bunch it's gonna break eventually, which is fine early on when you can carry spares, but at some point your shield's gonna have all these runes on it as part of the game's expected weapon progression and it's gonna get a lot harder to sink money into other shields (unless you're using the ABP variant rule). I'd be really careful about Everstand Stance for this reason, though a low investment fix for this problem could be to use your own body to attack with Handwraps of Mighty Blows.
Yeah, like people above are saying you really ought to get some CON. I usually recommend 14 for frontline characters, but on a defender especially I'd treat 14 as the bare minimum. You can compensate to some extent with feats like Toughness (which you'd more than likely be getting regardless of CON) and items like a Belt of Good Health, but there really is no replacing a decent Constitution score. You'll definitely feel the difference come levels 3 and beyond.
What I'd be extremely wary about is using Everstand Stance as-is: that cool shield you're holding in both hands is, at the same time, your weapon and your first line of defense. If you use Shield Block a bunch it's gonna break eventually, which is fine early on when you can carry spares, but at some point your shield's gonna have all these runes on it as part of the game's expected weapon progression and it's gonna get a lot harder to sink money into other shields (unless you're using the ABP variant rule). I'd be really careful about Everstand Stance for this reason, though a low investment fix for this problem could be to use your own body to attack with Handwraps of Mighty Blows.
Thanks much! I'll have the Bone Spikes deviant feat from the Total Power campaign background as a backup weapon. I realize I'll need to use Shield Block judiciously, but I figure if I'm going shield ally, then adding even MORE hardness while in the stance can only help keep the shield safer and open up my blocking opportunities further. Glimpse of Redemption will likely be my primary reaction if I can use it anyway.
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As a defensive champion you want enemies between a rock and a hard place. Attacking your friends? Glimpse of Redemption. Attacking you? High AC due to raised shield and you blocking the damage.
My main issue with a shield as weapon is that you want different runes on your weapon and your shield.
Regarding Str and Cha i would take the 18 in Str, the +1 in attack comes up a lot more often than demoralize. In my (limited) experience you don't have much room for bon mot in your action economy.
Gatewalkers seems to be a mystery AP, as a champion you will struggle to participate in lore- and research activities. No clue if that comes up in the AP a lot though, but it could be a good idea to take a lore or something to do something else but stand around as decoration while the others find out what is happening.
I used the willing host background, it was a lot of fun, albeit a bit limited mechanically with 1/day.
As an archetype i used undead slayer, boosting spirit lore to expert and complementing my shining oath - no clue if there are many undeads in the AP though.
My main issue with a shield as weapon is that you want different runes on your weapon and your shield.
Well, a Shield Boss is the actual weapon, so that's easy to enchant separately.
Regarding Str and Cha i would take the 18 in Str
Yeah, I've accepted a +4 STR will be required at level 1 so that I can wear full plate effectively prior to level 5. There's technically Grey Maiden Plate, but that feels like an "exploit" taking advantage of bad editing, and not an actual intended armor.
Gatewalkers seems to be a mystery AP, as a champion you will struggle to participate in lore- and research activities. No clue if that comes up in the AP a lot though, but it could be a good idea to take a lore or something to do something else but stand around as decoration while the others find out what is happening.
This was actually part of why I was initially drawn to having a starting +2 Int; it would give me a decent Occult skill check at 1. I'm looking at taking Clever Improviser at 5 with my Ancestry feat as well.
Thanks to everyone's excellent feedback, I've adjusted my plans to:
Str+4 / Dex +0 / Con +2 / Int +1 / Wis +0 / Cha +2
That does unfortunately knock Witch out of the running for my archetype, but I'm now considering either Bard or Soulforger. Soulforger is tempting since that would allow me to get an *extra* +2 hardness on my shield once per day on top of Everstand and Shield Ally (plus who doesn't love being able to don full plate as a free action?)
On the other hand, Bard's Healing Hymn is extremely comparable to Witch's Lesson of Life and gets me that 3rd Focus Point, as well as some really nice 1/d buff spells, skill training, and helpful cantrips.
I recognize that I could drop Cha to +1 and get Int back up to +2, but that seems like a real waste of getting Intimidating Glare from my Background; I'd still like to be able to make good use out of a solid Charisma with Diplomacy and Intimidate (also good for aforementioned social encounters.)