They set up a system whereby making things requires a formula.
That was removed in the Remaster. The crafting system no longer requires a formula in order to make any of the common items. All a formula does is reduce the setup time needed, and allows access to craft uncommon and rare items.
So if that is the basis of your objections, you should re-think your objections.
No idea. Alchemist isn't out yet and I don't see any errata about it anywhere.
The only thing that makes me doubt this application is that it would be a massive glaring hole in the errata from the CRB-Compatibility document: "Oh yeah, Alchemists require 80% less Formulas" seems like a pretty big thing to miss.
- Jee
Related: their is a Witch Feat in the PC that reeeealllly looks like it should create items with the "Infused" Trait, but it doesn't say anything about "Infused" - perhaps this is going away?
Related: their is a Witch Feat in the PC that reeeealllly looks like it should create items with the "Infused" Trait, but it doesn't say anything about "Infused" - perhaps this is going away?
The only one I can think of that would qualify to be what you are hinting at is Cauldron. It indeed doesn't have the Infused trait, but then Temporary Potions didn't have the Infused trait before either.
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In my not so humble opinion. My wife had to tell that's what that meant. Im terrible at acronyms.Wow, somenone finally took "if you like Google so much, why don't you marry it!" to heart.
lol I am really bad at acronyms. I don't ever remember them after someone tells what they were either.
I think the hangup around the auto-heightening of formulas is due to treating the moderate, greater, ect versions as inherently different items.
They are not.
It's not a comparison of a black powder bomb to a C4 charge, it's the equivalent of someone getting just the right black powder blend to cut the burn time in half, making a bigger boom.
It's the exact same concept behind heightening spells. It's not a difference of kind, but only of quality.
A +2 fundamental rune is the exact same function/ concept as a +1, just of a much more difficult to achieve potency.
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Side note:
Prerequisites Cauldron
You spend 10 minutes and 1 Focus Point brewing a special potion containing the power of one of your hexes that targets a creature. A creature that consumes this potion is targeted by the hex. If the hex has a sustained duration and you have cackle, you can cast cackle into the bottle just before you seal it. If you do, the hex's duration is extended as if you had cast cackle the round after the hex was cast (typically this extends the duration by 1 round). Your cackling laugh sounds out when the potion is unsealed.Any potion you create this way loses its power the next time you make your daily preparations. While the potion is in your possession, you can render it inert using a single action that has the concentrate trait. You can't regain the Focus Point you spent to create the potion (or the Focus Point you spent to cast cackle) until the potion is consumed or loses its magic.
Okay, what the heck is this?
Does this only function if you can trick someone into *drinking* it?
How is that even supposed to be normally possible, especially if the bottle itself can start cackling when opened?
I guess this is supposed to just be ally-only buffs like Lesson of Life?
I guess this is supposed to just be ally-only buffs like Lesson of Life?
Yes. Witch's Bottle has always been a significantly expensive and niche-use feat. That has not changed in the Remaster.
Taken to an extreme arbitrary example...
That's a fine point, but I wonder if any actual examples of that exist within the game. If not, it becomes rather moot.
Raving Dork, one issue with your example which makes sense having a 1st level character learn something early, and eventually being able to do more advanced things as they have leveled up. But the issue is, that it also presents the example allowing the higher level individual, going out and buying the primer on gunpower, and without ever touching an ounce of gunpowder, begins assembling the C4 explosive device.
Higher level characters are more experienced, have seen more of the world, and are able to intuit things more quickly.
In your example the high level character has likely come across both gunpowder AND C4 during their time adventuring. Getting the formula just allows that last little bit to mentally "click" for them. The last bit of the puzzle as it were.
It's only a logical hurdle if you make it one.
I think the hangup around the auto-heightening of formulas is due to treating the moderate, greater, ect versions as inherently different items.
They are not.
It's not a comparison of a black powder bomb to a C4 charge, it's the equivalent of someone getting just the right black powder blend to cut the burn time in half, making a bigger boom.
It's the exact same concept behind heightening spells. It's not a difference of kind, but only of quality.
A +2 fundamental rune is the exact same function/ concept as a +1, just of a much more difficult to achieve potency.
Have you tried the blue stuff from Heisenburg? Stuff if absolute dope! Totally PURE dude! It's not like the same stuff we've seen before at all. It's like next level, man!
:P
Ninjaed. And yeah, exactly this. Gunpowder and C4 are not the same thing at all. They might try to achieve the same thing, but they do so through different means. It's like saying that alchemist's fire, pyronite, and heck, for that matter black powder are the same things just because they all go boom and deal fire damage.I think the hangup around the auto-heightening of formulas is due to treating the moderate, greater, ect versions as inherently different items.
They are not.
It's not a comparison of a black powder bomb to a C4 charge, it's the equivalent of someone getting just the right black powder blend to cut the burn time in half, making a bigger boom.
It's the exact same concept behind heightening spells. It's not a difference of kind, but only of quality.
A +2 fundamental rune is the exact same function/ concept as a +1, just of a much more difficult to achieve potency.
I still think Loreguard's point has some merit. There are magical items in the game that are quite different from their lower level counterparts.
Loreguard makes sense to me.
Mostly, I have to remember that Pathfinder is not Harnmaster. :-)
I'll absolutely agree there's some discussion to be had with higher-level crafters effectively getting stuff at lower cost, though even that I'm not too concerned about.
I think it is important to accurately account for what the high level crafter is getting for free.
Pre-Remaster, the crafter would need to pay for the high level formula in order to create the high level item - whether there was a lower level formula available for that item type or not.
With Remaster, the crafter doesn't need to pay for the high level formula in order to create the high level item - whether there is a lower level formula available for that item type or not.
If the crafter wants to buy the formula for the item in order to craft it faster, then there is a difference in the Remaster: If the item has a lower level version, then the crafter has to only buy the lower level formula - but if the item does not have a lower level formula, then they have to buy the high level formula for it.
So keep that in mind when arguing the balance of this change. This is going to have impact for a small subset of items and only at high levels of play.
It's at least possible that this won't apply to Quick Alchemy (and Quick Tincture). Those actions/requirements are distinct from normal Crafting, and as currently written don't benefit from the rule change. While I would love for this to apply across the board, I could see that taking a formula and modifying it to make it more powerful is very doable when you're not under the pressure of someone trying to kill you. When you are, however, then you might need the exact formula for what you're trying to make.
We just won't know until PC2. And in the meantime, as written, Quick Alchemy doesn't benefit from the rule change.
It's at least possible that this won't apply to Quick Alchemy (and Quick Tincture). Those actions/requirements are distinct from normal Crafting, and as currently written don't benefit from the rule change. While I would love for this to apply across the board, I could see that taking a formula and modifying it to make it more powerful is very doable when you're not under the pressure of someone trying to kill you. When you are, however, then you might need the exact formula for what you're trying to make.
We just won't know until PC2. And in the meantime, as written, Quick Alchemy doesn't benefit from the rule change.
I completely agree that it would be out of their norm for Paizo to give Alch's the ability to quick make any common in the item list without the formula.
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That said, Quick Alchemy has never involved the formula book in any physical way. You don't whip open a book in combat when you make the items. Theoretically, that formula requirement would be the swapped with the daily Advanced Alchemy.
The long lasting prep items needing the formula, the combat temporaries being improved constructs of quintessence.
But, for gameplay conceits, it's more likely to be the opposite, with either Quick needing the formula, or both forms of Alch items needing formulas.
What really kind of sucks is that I don't think there's been a change to formula **price** they all still have that quickly-scaling gp cost.
While the auto-heighten will mean that the core essentials like bombs and mutagens will no longer be taxing one's gp every upgrade tier, it will still be brutal on the Alch's coinpurse to get a variety of the fun items.
My brain works in strange ways, it does. You wrote "auto-heighten" and my brain saw "auto-frighten".
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It's an immense cost savings once you start hitting the higher level items as you'll have picked up tons of tiered options already and can afford to only take/buy the new stuff instead, it's a big plus even if the intent is still for reagent use and class abilities to require formulas.
In the past I've always advocated for any decent Alch to save at least 20% of the coin to be invested straight back into the formula book and saving at least 5- 10 completely free formulas that you'd have had to know before by level 5 and it only gets better from there, well over half of any Alch formula book starts off as being one of many tiered (lesser, moderate, etc) item so your breath instantly expands dramatically. So long are the days when you have to choose if you want to take a free formula (or have to pay for) at 5 you gotta choose between something new to expand your capabilities or simply upgrade one of your staple items.
I'm interested in seeing how it plays out, hopefully they preview the Alch sooner rather than later for promotional blog pushes and we get to see behind the curtain a bit.
It's at least possible that this won't apply to Quick Alchemy (and Quick Tincture). Those actions/requirements are distinct from normal Crafting, and as currently written don't benefit from the rule change. While I would love for this to apply across the board, I could see that taking a formula and modifying it to make it more powerful is very doable when you're not under the pressure of someone trying to kill you. When you are, however, then you might need the exact formula for what you're trying to make.
We just won't know until PC2. And in the meantime, as written, Quick Alchemy doesn't benefit from the rule change.
I completely agree that it would be out of their norm for Paizo to give Alch's the ability to quick make any common in the item list without the formula.
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That said, Quick Alchemy has never involved the formula book in any physical way. You don't whip open a book in combat when you make the items. Theoretically, that formula requirement would be the swapped with the daily Advanced Alchemy.
The long lasting prep items needing the formula, the combat temporaries being improved constructs of quintessence.But, for gameplay conceits, it's more likely to be the opposite, with either Quick needing the formula, or both forms of Alch items needing formulas.
What really kind of sucks is that I don't think there's been a change to formula **price** they all still have that quickly-scaling gp cost.
While the auto-heighten will mean that the core essentials like bombs and mutagens will no longer be taxing one's gp every upgrade tier, it will still be brutal on the Alch's coinpurse to get a variety of the fun items.
Right I wasn't suggesting that Formulas wouldn't be required for Quick/Advanced Alchemy (which I will refer to as "fast-crafting" for brevity) for common items - they almost certainly will be. The question is whether or not I can fast-craft a Major Elixir of Life because I have the Minor Elixir of Life formula.
I find Tim (the Enchanter)'s answer reasonable: until further notice follow the RAW, which still says you need each Formula separately to fast-craft.
- Jee