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Probably because Calistria is my favorite, but I really don't know why the anathema of "Be consumed by love or vengeance, let slights go unanswered" is such a confusing or contradictory thing?
I feel like Calistria is a goddess with a lot of nuance and context that does kind of just get glossed over. Be consumed by love or vengeance. That has always read to me like "Do nothing else but focus on those things."
One of her Aphorisms is: Love the food, not the chef. It has one line in there that I think sums it up. "It is also a reminder to not become consumed by vengeance to the exclusion of all other things. There is
more to life than just revenge, and there are many joys one
can experience even while seeking retribution."
While Calistria takes things to extremes, her religion is based on personal freedom, taken to extremes. Meaning it is up to a persons interpretation as to what a slight is. It doesn't even say to get revenge for a slight, just that it should not go unanswered.
In her holiday The Ritual of the Whip Sting it says "The church recognizes that sometimes a long-standing feud can be harmful to
a community, and while the goddess doesn’t believe in
forgiveness, she does believe in adequate satisfaction for
an offense." So there is room to say not every slight is worth a serious reposition, sometimes it just needs to be addressed.
I'm not the best at getting my points across but, her whole portfolio seems to be on reading between the lines, and interpreting it yourself. It even says churches argue on how her teachings should be interpreted. It's all just very personal and up to one's own interpretation. Making the whole thing sounding a little volatile and fickle but... She is a fickle goddess, so it fits.
I'm worried we might lose her, and lose something very cool and interesting for the setting and elves in general, since most just read: Goddess of Lust, Trickery, Vengeance. Then just write her off.
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Want to add that Calistria's anathema fostering moderation with regard to lust and vengeance has never come of as paradoxical to me, nor really as very confusing. Unless we assume that deities as a rule espouse fanatical devotion to their thing, no matter how petty or grand, it makes more sense, not less, that Calistria says, "Be horny and get revenge, but also don't lose yourself in the process because if you get too obsessed, you're only going to sabotage yourself".
I imagine there are probably a number of Calistrian parables about the devotee who didn't know how to keep a feud at arm's length and ultimately destroyed their own lives or led their community to ruin.
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Want to add that Calistria's anathema fostering moderation with regard to lust and vengeance has never come of as paradoxical to me, nor really as very confusing. Unless we assume that deities as a rule espouse fanatical devotion to their thing, no matter how petty or grand, it makes more sense, not less, that Calistria says, "Be horny and get revenge, but also don't lose yourself in the process because if you get too obsessed, you're only going to sabotage yourself".
I imagine there are probably a number of Calistrian parables about the devotee who didn't know how to keep a feud at arm's length and ultimately destroyed their own lives or led their community to ruin.
I am of the opinion that a deity expects their followers to always try to follow their deity's teachings as best they can.
It's just that Calistria is not the deity of revenge at any cost. Being both lust and revenge makes her inherently more balanced.
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Probably because Calistria is my favorite, but I really don't know why the anathema of "Be consumed by love or vengeance, let slights go unanswered" is such a confusing or contradictory thing?
I feel like Calistria is a goddess with a lot of nuance and context that does kind of just get glossed over. Be consumed by love or vengeance. That has always read to me like "Do nothing else but focus on those things."
One of her Aphorisms is: Love the food, not the chef. It has one line in there that I think sums it up. "It is also a reminder to not become consumed by vengeance to the exclusion of all other things. There is
more to life than just revenge, and there are many joys one
can experience even while seeking retribution."While Calistria takes things to extremes, her religion is based on personal freedom, taken to extremes. Meaning it is up to a persons interpretation as to what a slight is. It doesn't even say to get revenge for a slight, just that it should not go unanswered.
In her holiday The Ritual of the Whip Sting it says "The church recognizes that sometimes a long-standing feud can be harmful to
a community, and while the goddess doesn’t believe in
forgiveness, she does believe in adequate satisfaction for
an offense." So there is room to say not every slight is worth a serious reposition, sometimes it just needs to be addressed.I'm not the best at getting my points across but, her whole portfolio seems to be on reading between the lines, and interpreting it yourself. It even says churches argue on how her teachings should be interpreted. It's all just very personal and up to one's own interpretation. Making the whole thing sounding a little volatile and fickle but... She is a fickle goddess, so it fits.
I'm worried we might lose her, and lose something very cool and interesting for the setting and elves in general, since most just read: Goddess of Lust, Trickery, Vengeance. Then just write her off.
I find it a sign of great artistry from the Golarion deities' authors that we can find a deity in the setting that deeply resonates with us and it incites us to delve into their lore as if we were one of their worshippers.
And I saw it on these boards for many posters and many deities.
Gorum, as the deity of Never give up, is the one that most resonates for me.
Whoever gets killed, I fervently hope their fans in the playerbase will be satisfied with the way it is told.
Love the food not the chef.
To me that means love what people do, but not get caught up in loving them for what they do. Extending to worship it could mean love what Calistria does but don't actually worship her.
No problem there.
On revenge.
So do not be consumed but always remember and get back at those at your convenience? I don't think this is really possible, for me it still means letting those who slighted you free rent in your headspace. If she dropped her stance on never forgetting a slight this would be fine.
What i find interesting is the detachment from things too involving so you can enjoy life in moment, that seems to be the main thrust to me. For me that is ruined by having to get back at everyone who wronged you.
Extended thought:
She does seem to take revenge as a thoughtful process, be smart about it not dumb and passionate and dont let it get in the way of enjoying the moment. I just dont like the idea of holding on to it forever and not being able to let it go.
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Now that I'm looking at things again post-Remaster, Calistra, esp since Alignment got the axe, reads to me like a Deity that NOBODY in their right mind would EVER venerate or respect. They represent all of the worst qualities of overly attached individuals with BPD, emotional control problems, violent tendencies, and selfishness. They're the type of individual who would do everything in their power to ruin somebody who rejected their advances and embarrassed them just so long as pursuing your MANDATE for revenge doesn't completely destroy the worshipper or ruin their reputation or life.
Now that goodness and altruism are no longer linked to her in any way she basically represents liars, conmen, and murderers just as well if not better than Zon-Kuthon and the image invoked by combining revenge, trickery, and lust with her sacred animal absolutely screams parasitc wasp which isn't something that I think any sane person would look to emulate or venerate.
Now that I'm looking at things again post-Remaster, Calistra, esp since Alignment got the axe, reads to me like a Deity that NOBODY in their right mind would EVER venerate or respect. They represent all of the worst qualities of overly attached individuals with BPD, emotional control problems, violent tendencies, and selfishness. They're the type of individual who would do everything in their power to ruin somebody who rejected their advances and embarrassed them just so long as pursuing your MANDATE for revenge doesn't completely destroy the worshipper or ruin their reputation or life.
Now that goodness and altruism are no longer linked to her in any way she basically represents liars, conmen, and murderers just as well if not better than Zon-Kuthon and the image invoked by combining revenge, trickery, and lust with her sacred animal absolutely screams parasitc wasp which isn't something that I think any sane person would look to emulate or venerate.
Lust - check.
Revenge - check.
Trickery - check.
A healthy dose of violence on the side too. But that isn't required.
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Now that I'm looking at things again post-Remaster, Calistra, esp since Alignment got the axe, reads to me like a Deity that NOBODY in their right mind would EVER venerate or respect. They represent all of the worst qualities of overly attached individuals with BPD, emotional control problems, violent tendencies, and selfishness. They're the type of individual who would do everything in their power to ruin somebody who rejected their advances and embarrassed them just so long as pursuing your MANDATE for revenge doesn't completely destroy the worshipper or ruin their reputation or life.
Now that goodness and altruism are no longer linked to her in any way she basically represents liars, conmen, and murderers just as well if not better than Zon-Kuthon and the image invoked by combining revenge, trickery, and lust with her sacred animal absolutely screams parasitc wasp which isn't something that I think any sane person would look to emulate or venerate.
But the Remaster has not changed Calistria nor her followers one bit. So what is true now was true before and vice versa.
But the Remaster has not changed Calistria nor her followers one bit. So what is true now was true before and vice versa.Now that I'm looking at things again post-Remaster, Calistra, esp since Alignment got the axe, reads to me like a Deity that NOBODY in their right mind would EVER venerate or respect. They represent all of the worst qualities of overly attached individuals with BPD, emotional control problems, violent tendencies, and selfishness. They're the type of individual who would do everything in their power to ruin somebody who rejected their advances and embarrassed them just so long as pursuing your MANDATE for revenge doesn't completely destroy the worshipper or ruin their reputation or life.
Now that goodness and altruism are no longer linked to her in any way she basically represents liars, conmen, and murderers just as well if not better than Zon-Kuthon and the image invoked by combining revenge, trickery, and lust with her sacred animal absolutely screams parasitc wasp which isn't something that I think any sane person would look to emulate or venerate.
Doesn't it though?
At the very least with those alignment tags removed the context with which we used to interpret what we read about any character, deity, settlement, creature, or anything else with an alignment is no longer there to color how we interpret what we see.If you read a remastered version of Calistria and did not have previous knowledge of anything except what is on the page I could see how Themetricsystem point becomes valid.
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But the Remaster has not changed Calistria nor her followers one bit. So what is true now was true before and vice versa.Now that I'm looking at things again post-Remaster, Calistra, esp since Alignment got the axe, reads to me like a Deity that NOBODY in their right mind would EVER venerate or respect. They represent all of the worst qualities of overly attached individuals with BPD, emotional control problems, violent tendencies, and selfishness. They're the type of individual who would do everything in their power to ruin somebody who rejected their advances and embarrassed them just so long as pursuing your MANDATE for revenge doesn't completely destroy the worshipper or ruin their reputation or life.
Now that goodness and altruism are no longer linked to her in any way she basically represents liars, conmen, and murderers just as well if not better than Zon-Kuthon and the image invoked by combining revenge, trickery, and lust with her sacred animal absolutely screams parasitc wasp which isn't something that I think any sane person would look to emulate or venerate.
Doesn't it though?
At the very least with those alignment tags removed the context with which we used to interpret what we read about any character, deity, settlement, creature, or anything else with an alignment is no longer there to color how we interpret what we see.
If you read a remastered version of Calistria and did not have previous knowledge of anything except what is on the page I could see how Themetricsystem point becomes valid.
All the lore we had before is still valid. And it does not hinge on alignment.
Calistria is still who she was, has the same values as before and is worshipped by the same people.
And same for all other deities.
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But the Remaster has not changed Calistria nor her followers one bit. So what is true now was true before and vice versa.Doesn't it though?
I don't think it really has.
Edicts, Anathama, and Areas of Concern did the bulk of the work of mechanically describing the deity.
Much more than a two letter code representing one of 9 broad categories ever did. Especially one as so widely and loosely interpreted as Alignment was.
Seriously, if Alignment is the primary defining characteristic of a deity, then there are a lot of deities mechanically equivalent to Calistria.
But the Remaster has not changed Calistria nor her followers one bit. So what is true now was true before and vice versa.Doesn't it though?I don't think it really has.
Edicts, Anathama, and Areas of Concern did the bulk of the work of mechanically describing the deity.
Much more than a two letter code representing one of 9 broad categories ever did. Especially one as so widely and loosely interpreted as Alignment was.
Its not that it solely defines them, but it did provide a lens by which we all understood and interpreted their descriptions.
When we each see Chaotic Good we each inevitably take what we individually understand that to mean and attribute it to the deity. If you take a same new deity with similar descriptions but different alignments, each person looking at the two will end up with a different understanding of the same deity because a different alignment was attached to that description.
Probably because Calistria is my favorite, but I really don't know why the anathema of "Be consumed by love or vengeance, let slights go unanswered" is such a confusing or contradictory thing?
I feel like Calistria is a goddess with a lot of nuance and context that does kind of just get glossed over. Be consumed by love or vengeance. That has always read to me like "Do nothing else but focus on those things."
One of her Aphorisms is: Love the food, not the chef. It has one line in there that I think sums it up. "It is also a reminder to not become consumed by vengeance to the exclusion of all other things. There is
more to life than just revenge, and there are many joys one
can experience even while seeking retribution."While Calistria takes things to extremes, her religion is based on personal freedom, taken to extremes. Meaning it is up to a persons interpretation as to what a slight is. It doesn't even say to get revenge for a slight, just that it should not go unanswered.
In her holiday The Ritual of the Whip Sting it says "The church recognizes that sometimes a long-standing feud can be harmful to
a community, and while the goddess doesn’t believe in
forgiveness, she does believe in adequate satisfaction for
an offense." So there is room to say not every slight is worth a serious reposition, sometimes it just needs to be addressed.I'm not the best at getting my points across but, her whole portfolio seems to be on reading between the lines, and interpreting it yourself. It even says churches argue on how her teachings should be interpreted. It's all just very personal and up to one's own interpretation. Making the whole thing sounding a little volatile and fickle but... She is a fickle goddess, so it fits.
I'm worried we might lose her, and lose something very cool and interesting for the setting and elves in general, since most just read: Goddess of Lust, Trickery, Vengeance. Then just write her off.
Your point is communicated well and I in no way have any place to invalidate it. I just got a different impression. Although I do see some of your points giving me a different understanding to consider.
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the image invoked by combining revenge, trickery, and lust with her sacred animal absolutely screams parasitc wasp which isn't something that I think any sane person would look to emulate or venerate.
Why does revenge, trickery and lust invoke the image of the parasitic wasp to you? It's one of the wasp that doesn't actually strike back against their aggressor, because their stinger is used to inject their larva into suitable host instead of being a weapon like the yellowjacket. Neither is it especially tricky to inject your eggs into something else. And it only invoke lust to you because they are wasp most known for they reproductive cycle, but even wasp that aren't parasitic have reproductive cycle, like almost every animals. And of course, reproductive cycle isn't really anything Calistria cares about anyway, that's more a Lamashtu thing, she care about lust and pleasure, not the reproductory aspect of sex.
The wasp is her symbol because of revenge, as the most well known wasp (the yellowjacket) are known for being spitefull and to dish out an incredible amount of pain comparatively to their size. I guess that this, coupled with the perceived independance of the wasp (who is seen as a "lone bug" compared to social insect like bees, even if it's not true of every wasp) is what cemented them as Calistria sacred animals.
I also think you're exagerating quite a bit her worse aspect here. She is not the deity of "overly attached individuals with BPD", her whole deal is independance, being overly attached is an anathema to her. She is the godess of "laidback hedonism", plain and simple, like an Urgathoa without a focus on "forbidden pleasure" and on reaching it at the expense of others.
Pursue pleasure, don't let yourself be tied down, don't let others walk all over you. Her philosophy is a (rather self centered) view on personal freedom, where you should value yourself and your freedom above all, and make sure that nothing can threaten this freedom. Take revenge on those that wrong you so that people known not to cross you (and thus not to bind you), and keep yourself in check so that you don't get overly attached to anyone. You should seek your own happiness and pleasure, just like other should seek their own, because people are responsible for themselves in her eyes.
I see her as a rather well liked godess accross Golarion, but especially for teenagers and young adult which find the idea of "no responsability except toward yourself" appealing, like a version of objectivism where the capitalism is swapped with hedonism instead. And as they grow up, they discover that caring about other people and getting attached is rather nice actually, and most reconsider their worship. I expect a lot of people in this planet have had a "cringe phase" in which they were rather deep in the Calistrian philosophy.
So all in all, not a good godess, but not an exceptionnally bad one either. A rather "neutral" deity, if you want.
EDIT : Now that I think about it, Calistria really seem to me like the "libertarian godess", she even have the colors. Not of the "conservative libertarian" mindset that care about freedom about the thing they like, and restriction on the things they dislike, but rather on the "true" libertarian philosophy, all about having as few regulation as possible and being able to do anything as long as you're not impeding other freedom, including doing sex work, taking drugs and dishing out your own brand of justice when you're wronged. Huh, don't know how to feel about it, never though of her like that before.
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Edicts, Anathama, and Areas of Concern did the bulk of the work of mechanically describing the deity.
Much more than a two letter code representing one of 9 broad categories ever did. Especially one as so widely and loosely interpreted as Alignment was.
Its not that it solely defines them, but it did provide a lens by which we all understood and interpreted their descriptions.
When we each see Chaotic Good we each inevitably take what we individually understand that to mean and attribute it to the deity. If you take a same new deity with similar descriptions but different alignments, each person looking at the two will end up with a different understanding of the same deity because a different alignment was attached to that description.
Interestingly, the exact same thing happens when you have two different people looking at Calistria's description with a completely different understanding of what "Chaotic Neutral" means.
Nothing has changed.
A different alignment, a different interpretation of the same alignment, and no alignment at all - are pretty much equivalent.
Edicts, Anathama, and Areas of Concern did the bulk of the work of mechanically describing the deity.
Much more than a two letter code representing one of 9 broad categories ever did. Especially one as so widely and loosely interpreted as Alignment was.
Its not that it solely defines them, but it did provide a lens by which we all understood and interpreted their descriptions.
When we each see Chaotic Good we each inevitably take what we individually understand that to mean and attribute it to the deity. If you take a same new deity with similar descriptions but different alignments, each person looking at the two will end up with a different understanding of the same deity because a different alignment was attached to that description.Interestingly, the exact same thing happens when you have two different people looking at Calistria's description with a completely different understanding of what "Chaotic Neutral" means.
Nothing has changed.
Right!
A single person will see differences with different alignment tags connected to the same description because those tags are descriptive of the nature of the thing.
But two different people may have different life experiences, perspectives, and understandings of the alignment tags themselves and come up with different interpretations of the same tag and description.
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A single person will see differences with different alignment tags connected to the same description because those tags are descriptive of the nature of the thing.
But two different people may have different life experiences, perspectives, and understandings of the alignment tags themselves and come up with different interpretations of the same tag and description.
And my point is that because of this, the tag is meaningless as a definition. So removing the tag doesn't change the definition.
Edicts and Anathema are better than alignment at defining what a diety wants of their followers because they provide a imperatives and a prohibitions. There will always be grey areas but I think these provide less of them than alignment.
I really do see removing alignment as actually beginning to change what is now possible even if it doesn't change what the deities have been in the past. Similar to removing magic schools allowing the existence of new concepts than we previously understood.
IMO (I'm learning to use acronyms) moving from having alignment tags to not having them will inevitably change how the deities are portrayed in the future. This is because they no longer need to constrain their actions by concepts along an axis of good and evil, law and chaos. Actions are in fact bigger than these conceptions and no longer having them constrain what actions they take will open them up to new possibilities.
And my point is that because of this, the tag is meaningless as a definition. So removing the tag doesn't change the definition.A single person will see differences with different alignment tags connected to the same description because those tags are descriptive of the nature of the thing.
But two different people may have different life experiences, perspectives, and understandings of the alignment tags themselves and come up with different interpretations of the same tag and description.
Oh I misunderstood.
I do thing it changes things.|
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The context for taking revenge against those who have wronged you for somebody who values hedonism, thrillseeking, and revenge would be that anyone who would stand in the way of your own selfish pursuit of happiness and lust to be an enemy and would be acting defiantly against your behavior and would be worthy of vengeance. The directives are absolutely bleeding narcissistic vibes.
There is a group of terms and words that describe the act of using trickery in order to satisfy or pursue feelings of lust and to seek revenge for those who would stop you and they're so severe that none of those things are even topics that are allowed to be discussed on this forum..
It's not a good look no matter how you paint it, hedonism is not bounded by the wants or desires of others. Couple that with trickery being one of their areas of interest and specialty and you've cooked up a recipe for a faith that teaches others that lying, cheating, stealing, and harming others for your own benefit, desires, and goals is the best way to live your life.
Steal from whoever you can using trickery, abandon emotional attachments in favor of temporary pleasure-seeking behavior, seek revenge and vengeance on anyone who stands in your way or defies you... I just don't see anything left over here that would appeal to anyone except perhaps villains or at best anti-heroes.
Almost nothing that remains after the Remaster paints in any form of positive light with the exception of the lip service that's paid toward her approval of fighting slavers which, as I understand it, is a topic that is now permanently mothballed in the setting anyhow. I'm just not sure how it's possible to view big C as anything other than a deity for the most selfish and self-absorbed faith-minded people unless you consider hedonism and sex appeal a virtue.
I'm all for having "bad" Deities and all, and perhaps the issue was in fact that they misclassified the intended behavior and faith itself when Alignment was still a thing and she should have been NE or CN at best but the creative team just never had the heart/courage to properly label and classify her appropriately. CG was NEVER an appropriate Alignment for her and with it gone it really sort of highlights just how at odds her description, setting lore about her faith, and directives for her followers were with the Alignment she was assigned.
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Okay so first of all
Revenge, Trickery, and Lust... you just described Zeus.
To me she represents a divorse of the concepts of lust and revenge from traditional morality. She says "It's natural to be attracted to that, it's hot. nothing wrong with that, it's wonderful to feel that... whoa, whoa, don't go overboard. And yes, that guy was an ass, you do deserve satisfaction for that insult. Hold up, you're getting out of hand real it in"
It is a validation of so many things gods normally make you feel shameful for, without an endorsement of using them as an excuse of cruetly.
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On revenge.
So do not be consumed but always remember and get back at those at your convenience? I don't think this is really possible, for me it still means letting those who slighted you free rent in your headspace. If she dropped her stance on never forgetting a slight this would be fine.
"never forget a slight" - Where are you getting this from? Callistra's thing is to never let a slight go unanswered. Some scruffy guy goes for your purse, you grab his hand, you twist it, driving him to the ground, you break his wrist, and you move on with your life and never think about him again. The slight (him trying to pick your pocket, and the insult of him thinking that he could do so and get away with it) has been answered (you caused him pain and then broke his wrist) and you don't need to let it bother you anymore.
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The context for taking revenge against those who have wronged you for somebody who values hedonism, thrillseeking, and revenge would be that anyone who would stand in the way of your own selfish pursuit of happiness and lust to be an enemy and would be acting defiantly against your behavior and would be worthy of vengeance. The directives are absolutely bleeding narcissistic vibes.
This is a really broad view of what a "slight" or "being wronged" is. Nothing indicate that you should take any mild inconveniences (or any inconveniences at all really) as a slight. Sure, a character that fly off the handle at the slightest hint of provocation would fit, but so would a calmer one that only respond in kind when someone actually deliberately antagonize or abuse them.
You really seems to focus on the worse possible interpretation and to take it as the baseline rule. It seems to me that you dislike her philosophy and portfolio, which is perfectly fine, she's not exactly my cup of tea either, but are trying to make up reasons as to why they are not just bad, but so bad that no one in their right mind would ever want to be associated to her and that she should be considered amongst the like of demon lords. And you do so by stretching every bad part of her characterisation as far as possible, drawing comparison to them and stuff that are related to these but not actually associated to her, and ignoring all the rest.
If I follow your logic and apply it to another god I personally dislike, then I could argue that all caydenite are pompous gloryhounds because one of his edict is "seek glory", so obviously the only way to properly worship him is to minimize everyone else's achievement and steal credit whenever it's possible. Continuing on that, I could say that as his portfolio is alcool and thrill seeking, he is thus the deity of drunk driving, and that really, the accidental god is the god of accidental death, deserving a place amongst the daemons. I could argue that his aestetic and area of concern easily associate him to college frat parties, and thus to every bad things that can happen in them, some of which as you say, we can't talk about in this forum. But of course, it would be reductive, he's not the god of frat parties, not the god of lethal drunken accident, and while the loud mouthed braggard could absolutely be a caydenite, it's far from the only "valid" caydenite that can exist.
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Maybe... And what of it? He was a completely terrible being. Like most of the pantheon, they were at least half-monsters. The nicest thing about them is they didn't demand human sacrifices at least (most of the time?).
Do note that the person Zoken was arguing against was saying that Calistria was the kind of god that "NOBODY in their right mind would EVER venerate or respect". Even if Zeus and the other olympians were terrible beings (which they were), it's unarguable that they were still venerated and respected by the greeks.
"never forget a slight" - Where are you getting this from? Callistra's thing is to never let a slight go unanswered. Some scruffy guy goes for your purse, you grab his hand, you twist it, driving him to the ground, you break his wrist, and you move on with your life and never think about him again. The slight (him trying to pick your pocket, and the insult of him thinking that he could do so and get away with it) has been answered (you caused him pain and then broke his wrist) and you don't need to let it bother you anymore.On revenge.
So do not be consumed but always remember and get back at those at your convenience? I don't think this is really possible, for me it still means letting those who slighted you free rent in your headspace. If she dropped her stance on never forgetting a slight this would be fine.
This is not an edict. never forgetting a slight is something she does as described in her entry in gods and magic.(paraphrase) She never forgets a slight and those that have forgot will find out from some long term plot for revenge to lay them low.
You know its not even that I don't like her concept. I would not want to see her be the one that dies.
Like with character, mine would just choose the parts of her to emulate that inspire my character to follow her.
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I'm all for having "bad" Deities and all, and perhaps the issue was in fact that they misclassified the intended behavior and faith itself when Alignment was still a thing and she should have been NE or CN at best but the creative team just never had the heart/courage to properly label and classify her appropriately. CG was NEVER an appropriate Alignment for her and with it gone it really sort of highlights just how at odds her description, setting lore about her faith, and directives for her followers were with the Alignment she was assigned
There is a misunderstanding here.
Calistria has always been CN.
She allows for CG worshippers but she is not Good.
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the image invoked by combining revenge, trickery, and lust with her sacred animal absolutely screams parasitc wasp which isn't something that I think any sane person would look to emulate or venerate.Why does revenge, trickery and lust invoke the image of the parasitic wasp to you? It's one of the wasp that doesn't actually strike back against their aggressor, because their stinger is used to inject their larva into suitable host instead of being a weapon like the yellowjacket. Neither is it especially tricky to inject your eggs into something else. And it only invoke lust to you because they are wasp most known for they reproductive cycle, but even wasp that aren't parasitic have reproductive cycle, like almost every animals. And of course, reproductive cycle isn't really anything Calistria cares about anyway, that's more a Lamashtu thing, she care about lust and pleasure, not the reproductory aspect of sex.
The wasp is her symbol because of revenge, as the most well known wasp (the yellowjacket) are known for being spitefull and to dish out an incredible amount of pain comparatively to their size. I guess that this, coupled with the perceived independance of the wasp (who is seen as a "lone bug" compared to social insect like bees, even if it's not true of every wasp) is what cemented them as Calistria sacred animals.
I also think you're exagerating quite a bit her worse aspect here. She is not the deity of "overly attached individuals with BPD", her whole deal is independance, being overly attached is an anathema to her. She is the godess of "laidback hedonism", plain and simple, like an Urgathoa without a focus on "forbidden pleasure" and on reaching it at the expense of others.
Pursue pleasure, don't let yourself be tied down, don't let others walk all over you. Her philosophy is a (rather self centered) view on personal freedom, where you should value yourself and your freedom above all, and make sure...
Your post, as well as that of Eunaya Alumari above, actually make me consider playing a Calistrian. Which is honestly something I never felt interested in before.
So, great thanks to both of you for sharing your thoughts.
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You know its not even that I don't like her concept. I would not want to see her be the one that dies.
Like with character, mine would just choose the parts of her to emulate that inspire my character to follow her.
I think that's honestly my favorite part about her. She wants people who follow her to follow her teachings when and how they need them.
As for the having good followers thing, well. She has freedom fighters, demon hunters, and even lawyers who pursue legal compensation for those who have been slighted. Her good temples believe that sex and care is a way to do good in society, to calm more violent people. Just how there are a number of ways her followers can be evil, there are plenty to be good. The goddess herself is amoral, she really doesn't care about good or evil.
I really don't mean to sound like I'm harping on people or anything. I'm just worried that if enough people say she doesn't fit or make sense, will make her a easy target for killing her off. When there is so much more going on with her if you read in beyond a surface level.
Honestly, I love that she is a mean "goodly god" and a kind "evil god". If Paizo is removing alignment, she is a great example as to why those really don't matter or make sense. She invites more options for how those things can be used. I've seen some people say she is the typical idea of a CN god and the people and characters who pick that alignment.
Even before they removed the alignments, they gave her a Aphorism, of Tend to your wounds first. More or less saying, put some thought before you act and make sure you are okay first. Which is just really good advice, and more than being chaotic stupid.
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Good point, but it's yours, not Zoken's. It's not obvious they meant exactly that. Even after re-reading.
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(Just a small irrelative note) And by the way, revenge and trickery weren't the core of Zeus, I think. Well, basically all of them were vengeful of course and he did use trickery to get what he wanted from time to time. But I don't think these were the most important things about him.
It was the point I was trying to make, however I will take your note that I was not explicit enough about that.
But the Remaster has not changed Calistria nor her followers one bit. So what is true now was true before and vice versa.Now that I'm looking at things again post-Remaster, Calistra, esp since Alignment got the axe, reads to me like a Deity that NOBODY in their right mind would EVER venerate or respect. They represent all of the worst qualities of overly attached individuals with BPD, emotional control problems, violent tendencies, and selfishness. They're the type of individual who would do everything in their power to ruin somebody who rejected their advances and embarrassed them just so long as pursuing your MANDATE for revenge doesn't completely destroy the worshipper or ruin their reputation or life.
Now that goodness and altruism are no longer linked to her in any way she basically represents liars, conmen, and murderers just as well if not better than Zon-Kuthon and the image invoked by combining revenge, trickery, and lust with her sacred animal absolutely screams parasitc wasp which isn't something that I think any sane person would look to emulate or venerate.
Doesn't it though?
At the very least with those alignment tags removed the context with which we used to interpret what we read about any character, deity, settlement, creature, or anything else with an alignment is no longer there to color how we interpret what we see.
If you read a remastered version of Calistria and did not have previous knowledge of anything except what is on the page I could see how Themetricsystem point becomes valid.All the lore we had before is still valid. And it does not hinge on alignment.
Calistria is still who she was, has the same values as before and is worshipped by the same people.
And same for all other deities.
I think the problem is that alignment as a verifiable concept might be gone, but general social concept would still be there- and without an objective metric to hold it back.
Basically, it now seems very easy to just accuse a god of being "evil".
I mean, she is a god that advocates wild sex, vicious revenge, and has been known to hang out with demon lords (sure, she was tricking them, but appearances). So there is material there to throw around wild accusations. I'd imagine that might be popular in a nation that really doesn't like elves.
While having alignment as a palpable, verifiable aspect of the world can be silly, it does provide some advantages. Before, if you wanted to get a general read on a where a deity stands, you could just ping their clerics. "Oh, they got CG and CE clerics? Then she is probably chaotic neutral".
Now admittedly, there could be some curb balls with concealment spells or maybe the god just forcing the matter with a CG oracle that they tricked. But outside of small time local deities outside of the wider public eye, these tricks only carry so far they are revealed.
However, the removal of alignment provides "evil" deities with far more breathing room, and they can more easily in turn launch smear campaigns against all the other deities.
Basically, what I'm saying is that Asmodeus' greatest trick was convincing the world that alignment didn't exist. He seems to be the one with the most to gain out of all this. So it is time to start a campaign to fight the cult that has taken over Paizo's offices.