Blind Characters and exploration activities and "Vision"

[Blakeg]

So this actually came up in a game today where I decided to play a blind Ranger.

The rules seem fairly straight forward but we had a LOT of issues come up in actual game play.
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The PFS Blind rules:
Characters that are blind from birth or are otherwise permanently sightless cannot detect anything using vision.
They automatically critically fail any Perception checks based on vision, are immune to visual effects, and can’t be blinded or dazzled.
Blind characters who either can’t or choose not to remove their blindness hone their other senses.
They are not flat-footed to creatures that are hidden from them (unless they’re flat-footed to them for reasons other than the hidden condition)
they need only a successful DC 5 flat check to target a hidden creature.
Normally, such characters can’t remove their blindness later; if they somehow do, they lose these benefits
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When it came time to track something the GM said I couldn't track using my ranger, even with his animal companion guiding him. Nothing in the survival rules use visual.

When it came to combat I was required to roll a flat check to spot the creature to Hunt Prey even though it says "See OR hear" the creature.

GM ruled that hearing is an imprecise sense so even with the blinded PFS rules you can't use Hunt Prey without rolling the flat check even though it says "see or hear".

Is there any clarification on how blind interacts with non-visual abilities? I thought stuff like hunt prey would work because it says "see or hear" but the GM disagreed and said I still had to know where the creature IS.

Can blind PC's flank if they haven't rolled a DC 5 flat check? Is the DC 5 flat check for every action he takes against an enemy or just the first action?

Even saying hearing becomes precise for anything not requiring visual would make being blinded not as unusable as it is as written or without a lot of DM fiat.

[Finoan]

Blakeg wrote:

When it came to combat I was required to roll a flat check to spot the creature to Hunt Prey even though it says "See OR hear" the creature.

GM ruled that hearing is an imprecise sense so even with the blinded PFS rules you can't use Hunt Prey without rolling the flat check even though it says "see or hear".

That sounds like the GM is adding a restriction that the Hunt Prey action doesn't have. That is worth taking up the chain to your Venture Officer. And asking about on PFS-specific forums.

[Blakeg 32]

Finoan wrote:

Blakeg wrote:

When it came to combat I was required to roll a flat check to spot the creature to Hunt Prey even though it says "See OR hear" the creature.

GM ruled that hearing is an imprecise sense so even with the blinded PFS rules you can't use Hunt Prey without rolling the flat check even though it says "see or hear".

That sounds like the GM is adding a restriction that the Hunt Prey action doesn't have. That is worth taking up the chain to your Venture Officer. And asking about on PFS-specific forums.

Oops meant to post it on the PFS specific forums.

That said it's not so much as adding a restriction that hunt prey doesn't have. It's the fact that being blind doesn't explicitly say it removes imprecise senses for hearing. Which means everything is hidden to you. Which means you don't know what square it's in.

The reason I posted on the Paizo boards is to get clarification for stuff like tracking and hunt prey to help GM's going forward.
Can this be moved to the PFS specific board or do I need to remake the thread?

[Finoan]

It can be moved. We'll just flag it. Jonathan can get to that after the weekend.

[Doug Hahn]

In the heat of the moment GMs don't always make the best call especially when it comes to unique PFS house rules.

The Guide should strongly enjoin players who want to roleplay disabilities to communicate with GMs/VOs ahead of time so everyone is on board from a mechanical and sensitivity standpoint. Show up early with a printout of the rule, email them with a link to the rule, etc.

Your read on things looks correct to me except I believe you need that flat check every single time you target the creature, not just once, and not for "every single action" (some actions may not require targeting).

[Blakeg]

Doug Hahn wrote:

In the heat of the moment GMs don't always make the best call especially when it comes to unique PFS house rules.

The Guide should strongly enjoin players who want to roleplay disabilities to communicate with GMs/VOs ahead of time so everyone is on board from a mechanical and sensitivity standpoint. Show up early with a printout of the rule, email them with a link to the rule, etc.

Your read on things looks correct to me except I believe you need that flat check every single time you target the creature, not just once, and not for "every single action" (some actions may not require targeting).

Thanks, the funny thing is I did bring up the fact that he's blind and a cursory reading of the rules it seems pretty straight forward...

Until it came time for exploration activities and then the first combat.

I understand the flat check for targeting the creature/attacking/what have you and maybe hunt prey is a bit of an edge case but it feels like the blind rules could be a bit more clear when it comes to stuff that doesn't necessarily rely on vision.

There will always be some dm fiat and table variation but I didn't realize just how many of the mechanics become grey areas that the PFS doesn't really address when someone is actually playing a blind character.

Even a small "Blind PC's from birth can engage in any skill or activity that doesn't 100% rely on visual would drastically clear up a lot of the rules

[Doug Hahn]

Hunt prey isn’t an edge case, the GM made a mistake. It’s not uncommon to make little mistakes like this, I’ve also seen GMs say hunting prey is hostile action that would trigger combat in a diplomatic situation, etc. I mean, “hunting prey” sure sounds visual and aggressive, so I can understand where a GM might make that kind of mistake.

However if you want to target something with a melee attack (or an ally with a buff etc) it’s a dc 5 flat every time. This is a lot better than the usual dc 11.

[Errenor]

Blakeg 32 wrote:

That said it's not so much as adding a restriction that hunt prey doesn't have. It's the fact that being blind doesn't explicitly say it removes imprecise senses for hearing. Which means everything is hidden to you. Which means you don't know what square it's in.

Hidden means you DO know what square creature's in.

Also you don't even need to have a creature present to Hunt Prey it. 'You must be able to see or hear the prey, or you must be tracking the prey during exploration.' Even just tracks are enough, and when you hear it you definitely don't need to make any checks. Talking RAW, the action doesn't have a Target. Or sensory tags. So your GM simply ruled wrong even without talking about blind circumstance.

[Blakeg]

Errenor wrote:

Blakeg 32 wrote:

That said it's not so much as adding a restriction that hunt prey doesn't have. It's the fact that being blind doesn't explicitly say it removes imprecise senses for hearing. Which means everything is hidden to you. Which means you don't know what square it's in.

Hidden means you DO know what square creature's in.

Also you don't even need to have a creature present to Hunt Prey it. 'You must be able to see or hear the prey, or you must be tracking the prey during exploration.' Even just tracks are enough, and when you hear it you definitely don't need to make any checks. Talking RAW, the action doesn't have a Target. Or sensory tags. So your GM simply ruled wrong even without talking about blind circumstance.

Thanks, good to know.

Now on to the trickier stuff like Exploration activities, can blind PC's search/track/scout?

None of them have a Visual tag, I just realized the only one that actually has a visual tag is Follow the expert.

I think that solves most of the issues we ran into, will book mark this if it comes up again.

[Tomppa]

Search/track/scout seems like it'll probably run into table variation.

Firstly - Visual tag doesn't mean that YOU have to see, it means that you have to be seen:

Quote:

A visual effect can affect only creatures that can see it. This applies only to visible parts of the effect, as determined by the GM.

Follow the Expert has the visual trait because you must be able to see the expert to follow their lead, presumably.

There's no tag for "this requires the user to be able to see". Blinded condition doesn't specify any specific tags that become impossible to use - it merely states that you can't detect anything using vision.

Hunt Prey is very clear case of "should work" because it says it's enough for you to see OR HEAR the target.

Seek:

Quote:

You scan an area for signs of creatures or objects. If you're looking for creatures, choose an area you're scanning. If precision is necessary, the GM can have you select a 30-foot cone or a 15-foot burst within line of sight.

Personally, I'd let a blind character seek, but there might be limits to what you can find. You couldn't find a creature that's hiding up in the ceiling, and stuff you find is stuff you run into - unlike seeing characters that could spot the thing from a distance. On the other hand, if the target you're seeking is making sounds (like a creature breathing), I'd let you seek (and find) it from a distance.

It will probably be very sensitive to context and table variation as to how your blindness will affect your seeking in different circumstances.

Track? If you have scent or you have an animal companion that can see, I'd probably let you track without question. Without either, it would be a lot more context sensitive to what you can track. I think it's impossible to just rule either Yes or No without considering context: You might be tracking a light in the darkness of the night (clearly a visual activity) or you could be tracking a trail of blood drops (smell? Touch? visual?).

Scout:

Quote:

You scout ahead and behind the group to watch danger

Seems pretty hard to watch for danger if you can't see anything. I could see GMs ruling this either way - either stating that you can't scout as you can't watch, or ruling that you can scout using other senses, or ruling that you can scout but you'll only provide initiative bonus if the encounter can be detected with senses other than sight, etc.

Sadly, it feels like you'll probably run into a lot of table variation that is both dependent on the GM And the Context of a particular situation.

[MrEctomy]

I mean, if you want to play a blind character the reality is that it's going to carry a lot of issues for your character. You can point to rules and try to wriggle out of the consequences imposed by the blind condition using semantics, but in my opinion the roleplay value of being blind becomes less important, and less interesting, the fewer obstacles they have to overcome because of it.

If you want to make your character as mechanically viable despite them having such a substantial disability, I might recommend giving them a different disability. Or maybe just don't have them be disabled. Because this should cause issues in terms of your character's effectiveness, because otherwise, as I mentioned, why bother?

[Madhippy3]

Except that isn't how being permanently blind in PFS or the base game works. There are liberties given to building PCs with permanent disabilities so they can also be represented in out high magic epic fantasy story game.

A able visioned character suddenly losing sight because of the blind condition is treated differently to a character who has had long term blindness well before adventuring. This is not using semantics to wriggle out of consequences. This is the rules. This is the efforts made for inclusivity.