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Hey gang.
I'm a Grognard. I do not internet gud.
Mystic Theurge questions, please be kind.
First, let me say that my Google Fu generally places me on articles that are between 5-15 years old. I'm looking for more updated information and links that work.
Second, yes, it's sub-optimal. I get it, I really really do, I promise. I still want to play one. I have for 15ish years.
Third, I'm building it using all Paizo stuff, no 3rd party. I use HeroLab Classic. I have most books/data packages. Not ALL of them, but a significant amount of them.
1) I thought I read somewhere that a "good" build would have level 9 spells for the "primary" class of the chassis, and lvl 6 spells for the secondary one. How?
2) Many of the online "guides" or "builds" ideas seem to use old info, and seem to talk about Early Entry. I am not looking to overly cheese this build. How does one make up for missing spell levels? I get how with Magical Knack that I can add caster levels to one of the chassis classes, but how do you account for the (in theory) level advances I read about?
3) I don't own the book, but somehow I have the HLClassic "Inner Sea Magic" unlocked. I read about Esoteric Training and Eclectic Training, but I can't seem to find them as options on HLC. Is that because there has been updated FAQs or modified rule changes to the MT PrC?
For design purposes, I am planning on going 3 CLR and 3 WIZ, Human. The party I am in has a tank, a bard, a swashbuckler/investigator, and me. I started life as a weird kind of cleric archetype, and I need to maintain a lot of that original concept.
Most of the early entry shenanigans have been stopped. You had better check with your GM before using Faith Magic to qualify. This seems to be even more questionable than some of the other early entry options. Many GMs are going to veto this hard.
If you are playing a Mythic Theurge you are going to have to make some hard choices. The big problem is that most of the time you have competing stat requirements. Clerics and Wizard have different stat requirements which means you spells are probably going to be less effective. Oracles and Sorcerers have the same stat requirement, but their spell casting is already behind, and both of those classes have significant class abilities that are not advanced by the Mythic Theurge. You could go cleric sorcerer and take the Empyreal bloodline to make your sorcerer use WIS as a casting stat, but that means an additional level of sorcerer that does not go into cleric.
If you are really set on Mythic Theurge I would probably go with the cleric wizard and focus on the wizard side more than the cleric. Use the cleric for defensive and utility spells instead of offensive spell. Pump your INT as high as you can and get your WIS high enough to cast your spells. This is far from an optimal build but is about as good as you can get with a Mythic Theurge.
One finial warning is that this might not be the best time to try a Mythic Theurge. You already have a Bard and an Investigator in the party. Bards are typically the kings of buffing the party, and investigators are quite good at utility. The only thing a Mythic Theurge brings to the table is spells. They don’t really have any other significant class ability. With characters that can potentially cover two major things that spells can that does not leave you with much to contribute that others are not already providing.
1) I thought I read somewhere that a "good" build would have level 9 spells for the "primary" class of the chassis, and lvl 6 spells for the secondary one. How?
There are a few methods, depending on what you want out of the character. Usually, it comes down to choosing which casting (arcane or divine) you want to emphasize at higher levels. For example, after cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 10 take only cleric levels or only wizard levels (or another PrC with full spellcasting progression in one of the classes) until 20th character level; this gives the character spellcasting progression as if 17th in one class and 13th in the other.
The "classic" mystic theurge combines cleric or druid with sorcerer or wizard. Sorcerer, because it requires 4 levels to cast 2nd-level spells and gains 9th-level spells at 18th level progression instead of 17th, is often discounted since it prevents gaining 9th-level spells unless going past 20th character level or using "cheese;" however, wildblooded sorcerer with the Celestial/Empyreal bloodline can use Wis for sorcerer casting to reduce MAD. Similarly, oracle has the same sort of issue, although oracle 4/sorcerer 4/mystic theurge 10/[oracle or sorcerer] 2 at least uses Cha as the casting stat for both spell lists.
Another possibility is to combine a 9-level casting class with a 6-level casting class. Usually, the 6-level casting class is on the arcane side (to allow casting in armor): bard, magus, or skald tend to work fairly well, depending on what you are trying to achieve. Cleric/bard and druid/skald can combine nicely if you want to focus on the divine casting. Cleric (negative energy)/magus is a bit different in that you need 6 levels in magus to unlock Broad Study (to use Spellstrike with spontaneous inflict spells from the cleric spell slots); this route would emphasize the magus levels and tops out at (magus 7/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10) 6th-level arcane spells and 7th-level divine spells.
2) Many of the online "guides" or "builds" ideas seem to use old info, and seem to talk about Early Entry. I am not looking to overly cheese this build. How does one make up for missing spell levels? I get how with Magical Knack that I can add caster levels to one of the chassis classes, but how do you account for the (in theory) level advances I read about?
There is an optional route using organization membership rewards from Inner Sea Magic. There is also the Equipment Trick feat with mirror or sunrod, which is more contentious:
- "Trickster’s Mirror (Spell Focus [illusion]): You can use a mirror worth at least 10 gp as an additional material component for an illusion (figment) spell. The spell is treated as 1 spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs."- "Like the Sun (ability to cast any spell with the light descriptor): You can use a sunrod as an additional material component for any spell that bears the light descriptor. The spell is treated as one spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs and its ability to overcome sources of magical darkness."
It will depend on whether the GM accepts "for all purposes" as fulfilling the PrC requirement for mystic theurge ("Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells").
3) I don't own the book, but somehow I have the HLClassic "Inner Sea Magic" unlocked. I read about Esoteric Training and Eclectic Training, but I can't seem to find them as options on HLC. Is that because there has been updated FAQs or modified rule changes to the MT PrC?
It is because the affiliation/membership awards were never considered "official" rules.
For design purposes, I am planning on going 3 CLR and 3 WIZ, Human. The party I am in has a tank, a bard, a swashbuckler/investigator, and me. I started life as a weird kind of cleric archetype, and I need to maintain a lot of that original concept.
You will probably be OK as a mystic theurge in that group; most of the negative opinions on mystic theurges come from players that are disappointed when trying to "compete" with single-class casters in the same group. Be prepared to switch to more of a support role during character levels 5th to 10th or so; a mystic theurge gains "power" more slowly than a single-classed 9-level caster. Once the mystic theurge reaches about 12th to 14th character level, they will be very effective with the breadth of what their spells can do and the number of spell slots available.
They do require more effort in preparing the "correct" spells for the expected challenges, however.
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If being 'mostly human' is acceptable, Half-Elves get an alternate racial trait that would be great for you:...
For design purposes, I am planning on going 3 CLR and 3 WIZ, Human. The party I am in has a tank, a bard, a swashbuckler/investigator, and me. I started life as a weird kind of cleric archetype, and I need to maintain a lot of that original concept.
Horror Adventures pg. 39 Born to two races, half-elves have a knack for combining different magical traditions. If a halfelf with this racial trait has spellcasting abilities from at least two different classes, the effects of spells she casts from all her classes are calculated as though her caster level were 1 level higher, to a maximum of her character level. This racial trait replaces multitalented.You could even take another (rather costly) trait and say your character didn't even realize they weren't fully human:Source
Horror Adventures pg. 39 Sometimes half-elves are born with no obvious elven features. Their parents may even be humans with only faint traces of elven blood. They gain the human’s skilled racial trait. In addition, they receive a +4 racial bonus on Disguise checks to appear human. This racial trait replaces adaptability, keen senses, and low-light vision. The 'normal' build for a Mystic Theurge varies a bit by the classes you take:Source
- Three levels in a Prepared Arcane Casting Class (Wizard, Witch) - or - Four levels in a Spontaneous Arcane Casting Class (Sorcerer)
- Three levels in a Prepared Divine Casting Class (Cleric, Shaman) - or - Four levels in a Spontaneous Divine Casting Class (Oracle)
- Ten Levels in Mystic Theurge, bringing you up to caster level 13 or 14 in both casting classes,
- The remaining two to four levels are probably best in a single class.
With Wizard/Cleric, you are looking at level 13 casting (7th level spells) in both classes at 16th level, so putting your remaining four class levels into one of them will bring you up to level 17 casting (9th level spells) in that one class.
The caveats you need to keep in mind include:
- a) These classes use different casting stats, so you are probably going to be significantly better with one class than the other, and
- b) Class features other than spellcasting don't improve with Mystic Theurge levels: This includes Channel Energy and Domains for a Cleric, and Arcane bond, Arcane schools, and bonus feats for a Wizard.
'Early Entry' strategies revolve around fulfilling the 'Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells' prerequisite without taking the full 'normal' class levels, typically through racial spell-like abilities or feature that allow you to cast an arcane spell as a divine caster or vice-versa: Generally speaking, these have been declared invalid, but your GM has the final call on this...
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I'll just shamelessly plug in my (mostly serviceable) guide to the mystic theurge: DeathlessOne's Art of Theurgery, as it focuses on avoiding early entry shenanigans and goes into quite a bit of detail on how to maximize the use of the limited abilities you get from most classes that can qualify for it.
To be completely upfront, the guide is pretty thorough but still incomplete in the build areas (largely so). I address my own biases in the guide pretty clearly, so bear that in mind when (if) you choose to use it. Note that any 'builds' I list out are more outlines and suggestions. There are a bunch of rough build progressions the Build tables that show some feats that are recommended, but that sheet is ... messy in parts.
If you are willing to tweak the classes you are using, I'd recommend the 'Magaambyan Vengeance' Focused Build #1 I have outlined in the Combos #1 sheet. It combines Arcanist and Cleric, and gives you a fairly robust spell list to access (including druid spells) while opening up specific Witch Hexes to debuff and control the battlefield even when you don't use spells.
If you are set on Wizard/Cleric combo specifically, I have a few build concepts on the same sheet under the Wizard section. "Best Friend or Worst Enemy" or "Right! I knew that!"
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1) I thought I read somewhere that a "good" build would have level 9 spells for the "primary" class of the chassis, and lvl 6 spells for the secondary one. How?
Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10/Wizard 4 (in that order) ends up with a Level 20 level character who casts as a 17th-level wizard (9th-level spells) and 13th-level cleric (7th-level spells).
2) Many of the online "guides" or "builds" ideas seem to use old info, and seem to talk about Early Entry. I am not looking to overly cheese this build. How does one make up for missing spell levels? I get how with Magical Knack that I can add caster levels to one of the chassis classes, but how do you account for the (in theory) level advances I read about?
You don't. Mystic Theurges get far more spells per day and of a broader scope than a single-classed character. Lost spell levels are THE major balance factor. The only published way to "make up" those levels is Eclectic/Esoteric training (see below).
3) I don't own the book, but somehow I have the HLClassic "Inner Sea Magic" unlocked. I read about Esoteric Training and Eclectic Training, but I can't seem to find them as options on HLC. Is that because there has been updated FAQs or modified rule changes to the MT PrC?
First, check with your GM to be sure she is OK with using that material. It requires membership in specific guilds (that your GM would need to approve) and GM-created, one-on-one touch material to account for gaining fame and prestige.
On the HeroLab-specific front (just talking about programming, NOT legality for your game):
1) Under the Background tab, chose a faction from the Guilds section of ISM. (Kintargo Opera House, etc.)
2) Each time you gain fame with your guild, go to the Journal tab and put the earned Fame in Earn Box of the Prestige Award Journals section. Be sure to select your Guild in the dropdown box. Click on the "Earn" button. Add a new journal entry each time.
3) When you reach 5 total earned Fame, an "Eclectic Training" option will appear in the Background tab, under Racial, Template & Faction Abilities. Choose the class you want to increase.
4) When you reach 35 total earned Fame, an "Esoteric Training" option will appear in the same place.
When the designers saw how much this altered the power level, they narrowed the FAQ and said that a spell-like only counts as that specific spell. So, for example, having mirror image as a (Sp) meets a prerequisite of "able to cast mirror image" but not a prerequisite of "able to cast 2nd-level spells."
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It will depend on whether the GM accepts "for all purposes" as fulfilling the PrC requirement for mystic theurge ("Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells").
No, it depends on the GM letting "for all purposes" count for fulfilling the prereqs but not for what spell slot it takes to prepare or cast the spell. Basically, it requires select enforcement, and doesn't work with any consistent ruling: Either the effect only applies while casting, in which case the spell is cast as 1st level but doesn't let you qualify for anything while not casting, or it does apply outside of casting, in which case you need a 2nd level spell slot to prepare or cast the spell.
Most of the early entry shenanigans have been stopped. You had better check with your GM before using Faith Magic to qualify. This seems to be even more questionable than some of the other early entry options. Many GMs are going to veto this hard.
More questionable? This is one of just two ways that I know of that actually work RAW. Still dubious, though, because it depends on interpreting "Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells" literal, and not as "possess 2nd level spell slots from an arcane casting class". The latter is usualy assumed and enforced with the argument of "when you've spend all 2nd level spell slots in a day, the strict interpretations means you are no longer "Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells" for the day, and thus stop qualifying."
The other (mostly*) RAW legal method is Spirit Whisperer Wizard grabbing the Lore spirit's Arcane Enlightenment hex, which lets you get spells and explicitly says "When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane."
*) Requires the unwritten rule of "whenever a class feature grants access to class features from another class, unless otherwise specified, all instances of the class name are relaced by the name of the class that granted you the option to begin with, or "the character", as appropriate.", withoiut which significant parts of the game stop working.
On the HeroLab-specific front (just talking about programming, NOT legality for your game):
1) Under the Background tab, chose a faction from the Guilds section of ISM. (Kintargo Opera House, etc.)
2) Each time you gain fame with your guild, go to the Journal tab and put the earned Fame in Earn Box of the Prestige Award Journals section. Be sure to select your Guild in the dropdown box. Add a new journal entry each time.
3) When you reach 5 total earned Fame, an "Eclectic Training" option...
To copy paste: It's not easy to do, though. Your character needs to be at (and occasionally return to) one of a couple certain spots on Golarion, pay a fee, pass a skill check to enter (fairly easy with take 10 though), and then you need to do some checks and tasks, which have a limit to how often you can attempt them.
Basically, you need in-game years at low levels to make use of this option.
"Early entry" was based on a FAQ that said that having a spell-like ability that duplicated a spell counted as being able to cast the spell for purposes of meeting a prerequisite. Which resulted in several iterations of characters that could be (for example) Oracle 1 and Sorcerer 1 but had at least one (Sp) that counted as 2nd-level in each class and could therefore take MT as their third character level. Being down only one level down in each class instead of three or four.
When the designers saw how much this altered the power level, they narrowed the FAQ and said that a spell-like only counts as that specific spell. So, for example, having mirror image as a (Sp) meets a prerequisite of "able to cast mirror image" but not a prerequisite of "able to cast 2nd-level spells."
To be precise, it was the combination of two FAQs released independently at around the same time. One that answered "Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?" with "Yes.", and one that designated all SLAs as arcane or divine.
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...(about Eclectic and Esoteric Training)
It's not easy to do, though. Your character needs to be at (and occasionally return to) one of a couple certain spots on Golarion, pay a fee, pass a skill check to enter (fairly easy with take 10 though), and then you need to do some checks and tasks, which have a limit to how often you can attempt them.Basically, you need in-game years at low levels to make use of this option.
Sorta yes, sorta no, sorta "doesn't matter." Spoilering because it's a digression from the main intent of the thread.
Derklord is 100% correct that (if you're following the system as presented in the book) it is a pretty complicated and lengthy process.
Take 10 is . . . well, it's variable by GM. This really, really isn't the place to debate it at length. I'm not trying to force a viewpoint on anyone. I just want to point out that some GMs will consider the potential of expulsion from the Guild (or not being admitted in the first place) to be a significant enough threat to disallow taking 10. Those GMs probably aren't reading this thread, we don't need to litigate this tiny part of the overall discussion once again. Pointing out various parts of the Skill Check rules isn't going to result in anyone saying "I was wrong." Just be sure you know your GMs viewpoint.
As for the "in-game years at low levels" - yes, it is in-game years. But ISM has a sidebar on page 21 that basically boils down to "Don't get hung up on how long the semester is. Let your players make approximately 5 Education checks per character level." Doesn't really matter how long it takes in-world. Assuming you can pass those checks (which you should be able to pass, though without Take 10 you may need to invest heavily in traits and equipment) it should take you one level from enrollment to have Eclectic Training and 7 for Esoteric.
The bigger problem is that joining and staying in a Guild is EXPENSIVE. Using the Kintargo Opera House as an example, the entrance fee is 500 gp and the tuition is 200 gp/semester. Those 5 checks per level take 5 semesters. That's 1000 gp you have to pay the Guild every level. So you're not going to be joining as soon as you create your character. Probably level three at the absolute earliest, but that's sinking a lot of your expected wealth. Assuming everything works out, you are looking at level 10 as the earliest you can get Esoteric Training. Maybe a little earlier if the GM really works on Extracurricular activities for you.
It will depend on whether the GM accepts "for all purposes" as fulfilling the PrC requirement for mystic theurge ("Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells").No, it depends on the GM letting "for all purposes" count for fulfilling the prereqs but not for what spell slot it takes to prepare or cast the spell. Basically, it requires select enforcement, and doesn't work with any consistent ruling: Either the effect only applies while casting, in which case the spell is cast as 1st level but doesn't let you qualify for anything while not casting, or it does apply outside of casting, in which case you need a 2nd level spell slot to prepare or cast the spell.
Nice way to... live up to the title of the thread.
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On the HeroLab-specific front (just talking about programming, NOT legality for your game):
1) Under the Background tab, chose a faction from the Guilds section of ISM. (Kintargo Opera House, etc.)
2) Each time you gain fame with your guild, go to the Journal tab and put the earned Fame in Earn Box of the Prestige Award Journals section. Be sure to select your Guild in the dropdown box. Click on the "Earn" button. Add a new journal entry each time.
3) When you reach 5 total earned Fame,...
Thanks, this info is fantastic.
Are there only certain factions that give the esoteric training and eclectic training? I tried with the Arcanarium and it didn't seem to give those options...instead I got like "scholar" and "senior student" and some others, which came with benefits, but not the trainings.
The one I've seen mentioned that DID work was the Kintargo Opera House.
As this character isn't really a bard, I was thinking either previously mentioned Arcanarium or maybe the Acadamae, both for thematic and Golarion geographical reasons.
This character would be for Strange Aeons, which starts in Ustalav and such.
TIA and again for the great advice and discussion!
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Thanks, this info is fantastic.
Are there only certain factions that give the esoteric training and eclectic training? I tried with the Arcanarium and it didn't seem to give those options...instead I got like "scholar" and "senior student" and some others, which came with benefits, but not the trainings.
The one I've seen mentioned that DID work was the Kintargo Opera House.
As this character isn't really a bard, I was thinking either previously mentioned Arcanarium or maybe the Acadamae, both for thematic and Golarion geographical reasons.
This character would be for Strange Aeons, which starts in Ustalav and such.
ISM contains four categories of institutions for the School System. Academies, Guilds, Monasteries, and Secret Societies. In addition to each individual school having its own rewards, there are a number of rewards shared by all schools in that category.
Esoteric and Eclectic are rewards for all schools in the "Guilds" category. Arcanarium and Acadamae are both in the "Academy" category and therefore do not get those rewards.
The Guilds presented in the book are the Kintargo Opera House (Cheliax - artistic types), Oenopion Fleshforges (Nex - construct builders), Poisoner's Guild (River Kingdoms - assassins), and White Grotto (Absalom - Bards).
Having said that, talk to your GM. As has been mentioned, the whole School System from ISM requires a lot of GM content creation. Yours may be willing to work with you to come up with a Guild basted in Caliphas, Karcau, or Lepidstadt. The University of Lepidstadt might be a good choice for a Guild, as it not only produces world-leading investigators but also fields requests for the services of their faculty and graduates.
THe problem with using guilds is that other players may want in on the action. The effective caster level is capped at HD, but multiclassing, including prestige classes, is an option. So you may end up buffing other casters in your party, one shouldn't be surprised if the players with martial characters aren't happy with that.
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Thanks bro, I was reading a different guide and it refenced yours but didn't hyperlink it, and for some reason yours doesn't show up on Google, or maybe because I suck at interwebz I just couldn't bring it up when I did. Regardless, thank you, this info is good s#it.
Thanks for the compliments. I hope lots of people get some use out of it.
If you do false priest which is a Sorcerer archetype, that is the best arcane and divine caster mechanically ever.
The Razmiran Priest is indeed a fairly potent user of magic items to mimic the ability to cast divine spells from items, once they get to level 9. It is, however, something you must sink a fair amount of wealth into and still requires using higher level spell slots than the 'spell' you are trying to evoke from the item. Also, there is no language in the ability that says the sorcerer using their own caster level or DC for the effect, making this even MORE expensive should you want to have those effects stay relevant.
If you do false priest which is a Sorcerer archetype, that is the best arcane and divine caster mechanically ever.
With the minor downside that you have to be a follower of an evil dictator whose divinity is only accepted in one small and untrusted country that controls its population very tightly. It’s the Golarion equivalent of being in the North Korean PR corps.
There is no prerequisite to follow Razmir(technically), it is just assumed and super cool if you do.
The so-called “priests” of Razmir are magical charlatans—missionary servants of the Living God who spread his fervent devotion wherever they travel. Altered by Razmir’s magic, he can perform feats impossible for other sorcerers.
If you want to ignore the limited text associated with how a Razmiran priest gains the powers they wield, you can certainly make that claim. Perhaps they once worshipped him and later left the fold after they were altered by his magic, that could reasonably work. Anything beyond that is something I'd suggest you leave up to the GM.