I'm pretty new to pf2e, and I've finally come across what seems to be a common Toxicologist "strategy".
The claim is that slathering poison onto a blade or ammunition "activates" the poison, like popping a Smokestick. As anyone who's played with an Alchemist knows, the smoke gets to stay around.
According to the theory, this means that Perpetual Infusions can use Quick Alchemy to coat every single piece of ammo and compatible weapon for the whole party. Literally all of them.
With injury poisons like Clown Monarch that trigger at minimum 1 Prone fall each failed save (better than burning an action like Slow!), and with Quick Alchemy scaling the save DC, this invoked some serious "too good to be true" investigation on my part.
To rephrase this. With that ruling, any Alchemist can take a single Perpetual Breadth Feat, and apply 100s of GP worth of poison to the party, in between every combat. Every bullet, arrow, ect, gets a no action cost enhancement to its strike.
Anyone who's played Alchemist knows how stingy the rules are surrounding poisons, and that there's 0 chance it would be allowed. There's a Class Feat just to give a poison the chance to stay on the blade for a second Strike.
Moreover, that lil cheat gives me *less* reason to pick Toxicologist, as 90% of that Research Field's power budget would be locked into that "one trick a GM's sure to let you get away with" and I can just take one Feat as a Chiurgeon/ect to get infinite Clown Monarch.
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The catch, and deeper reason why this seems undressed, is proving that's invalid means discovering that we've all been doing Quick Alchemy wrong. And none of us want to play with the RaW (and RaI).
There has never been any clause that separates the created item from the effects caused by using it. Nothing to say "you popped the smoke, the item itself is timed out, but the smoke stays the full minute."
Quick Alchemy:
You create a single alchemical consumable item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that's in your formula book without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn.
The Infused trait:
You created an alchemical item with the infused trait using your infused reagents, and it has a limited time before it becomes inert. Any nonpermanent effects from your infused alchemical items, with the exception of afflictions such as slow-acting poisons, end when you make your daily preparations again.
With the text saying outright that afflictions from a successful poison exposure are the exception, the cloud from a Smokestick, even the buff of an elixir, are all supposed to vanish at the start of the Alch's next turn.
This causes a whole lot more "bad options" to make sense, like the Enduring Alchemy Feat adding just a bit longer to that time limit (for the cost of an entire Class Feat!).
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I've heard secondhand that there's been some crowbar rules in official PFS games, actually allowing the infinite poisoning, but Clown Monarch and Mustard Powder are "restricted" in specific. As yeah, that's rather game-breaking.
In conclusion, the currently live version of Alchemist was created with even more feat of Quick Alchemy than I had thought.
As always, jank that is left to fester will only grow worse. Right now, it's still small-ish, at a "some PFS approved rule breaking, but no not that one!" level.
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Let's nip it in the bud now, and get the right Paizo eyes needed to fix this to notice it. It's hard to imagine that the Chiurgeon's super neat changes w/ the full Medicine --> Crafting stuff was higher priority, which implies they don't know it needs fixing.
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Another smaller thing that needs a tweak. RaW, it's easy to read that popping an Inhaled poison onto a stationary enemy literally never invokes a Fort save against it. Either clarify that the initial poof does count as an exposure event (how my GM rules it) or that ending a turn inside the cloud does as well (my less liked option, but is more consistent w/ other cloud effects).
I'll leave the ranting about Double Brew and Alchemical Alacrity to the more senior Alchemists.
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Mustard Powder is an Inhaled poison and thus will not for work poisoning a weapon...
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The rules are clear, at least for Injury poisons.
An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon or ammunition...
(Emphasis added.)
There is nothing wrong, RAW, with an 11th+ level Alchemist selecting Clown Monarch poison as one of their Perpetual Potency formulas and spamming Quick Alchemy to poison lots of weapons and ammo between encounters while other party members are refocusing, treating wounds, etc. Besides, barring additional feat support, it triggers on the next strike made with a coated weapon/ammo and requires the target not be immune to poison and requires that the target fail a fortitude save.
Anecdotally, my 15+ level Toxicologist in Agents of Edgewatch stopped prepping and using poisons because so many targets were/are immune or their Fortitude Saves are so high they basically have to roll a nat. 1 for his toxins to be meaningful... or the targets are so weak in general that it doesn't matter enough to bother using poisons. Eroding Bullet, at least, consistently applies persistent acid damage.
The catch is that activating the poison does nothing to extend its duration, hence the realization that even Smokestick clouds or elixir ***buffs*** are supposed to disappear at the Alch's next turn.
Only an affliction is the exception that gets to stick around, such as an enemy failing an Inhaled poison save. The poison cloud, like everything else, is supposed to become inert.
Hence, the entire reason for making the post.
All Alchemists I've ever heard of play that a Quick Alchemy Smokestick, when popped, gets the full minute of smoke.
As the rules are so egregiously nerfed / underpowered / ect, we need to get the right Paizo eyes on this to change the rules.
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Not sure how your poisons are struggling so much. On level poisons have a higher than Class DC than the Alch, and any Quick Alchemy poisons will scale to class DC.
If you're dealing w/ undead, there is the Brightshade that does Positive damage instead of poison. Though its damage will still be stuck at LvL 4 amounts.
I think by Lvl 15 there's also one or two Will save poisons.
And there's that one good Tox Feat for -2 to poison saves when flat-footed.
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There is nothing wrong, RAW, with an 11th+ level Alchemist selecting Clown Monarch poison as one of their Perpetual Potency formulas and spamming Quick Alchemy to poison lots of weapons and ammo between encounters while other party members are refocusing, treating wounds, etc. Besides, barring additional feat support, it triggers on the next strike made with a coated weapon/ammo and requires the target not be immune to poison and requires that the target fail a fortitude save.
There really, really is. You can even put a gold price to each free use of a LvL 11 poison. They start at 225gp, each. RaW & RaI, it's supposed to take serious action cost to use Perpetual Injury poisons in combat. Need to make, apply, and strike before your next turn. A bit easier if you can poison an ally instead, but not at all worth doing.
The cheat ruling of being able to poison every single shot & first swing is absurd, there's on other way to phrase it.
If you genuinely think that the same devs that made the Poison Concentrator so horrible, or all those crummy Feats, would allow that kind of exploit, I don't know how I could convince you otherwise.
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I'm all for buffing Alchemists & Toxicologists, but doing it by actually changing the rules, not breaking them.
For an easy starter, there's no way that the 3:1 Advanced Alchemy efficacy of Infused Reagents makes sense to be universal across sub-classes. A mutagenist will need 1, maybe 2 mutagens per combat. A Tox will want to expose the feeble-looking ones, what, three times each combat? Tox could have a 4:1 or 5:1 efficacy w/ no worries about balance.
Again, keep in mind that any Alch can get access to that "trick" with Perpetual Breadth. There's no real reason for me to ever pick Tox over Chirugeon w/ your lasting Perpetual's ruling, seriously. The 2-->1 action poison apply doesn't matter if no one does that in combat.
Mustard Powder is an Inhaled poison and thus will not for work poisoning a weapon...
I have heard that Mustard Powder is restricted from being used as a Perpetual in PFS play, and for good reason.
It's 1 action to make, 1 to pop. And scales to Class DC
As everyone goes against the rules and says the cloud gets to stay for a full minute, you can make a Strike, then add a 10ft cube of Dazzling, Sickening, powder that does a dash of poison dmg on top.
No need to sustain the clouds.
No MAP, no need to land a strike. With the no-limit via Perpetuals, that is wildly above the norm.
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The catch is that activating the poison does nothing to extend its duration, hence the realization that even Smokestick clouds or elixir ***buffs*** are supposed to disappear at the Alch's next turn...
Um... no.
The effects of quick alch'd items do not end at the end of the turn. The ability to activate the alchemical item expires, if you will, at the end of the turn. If it is activated before then, it lasts its listed duration.
Thus, an injury poison applied to a weapon stays "active" on it the until the next strike with it (or, if Infused, the alchemist's next daily prep, whichever comes first).
When you quick alchemy an injury poison, feats notwithstanding, you have until the end of the turn to apply it to a weapon, or else it loses its Potency. However, when it is applied in the same round as it is quick alch'd, it remains on the weapon until used.
Otherwise, the alchemist would have to quick alchemy the poison, apply it, and strike all in the same turn. A Toxicologist must spend two actions to apply a poison. So, barring additional feats and/or later class features, unless they're Hasted, it's impossible to accomplish. Now that is TBTBT.
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Just as an aside; Clown Monarch poison isn't just restricted from use in perpetual infusions. It's "Restricted" which is PFS speak for banned entirely.
Basically, when PFS got the book and went through it they saw that as a level 5 poison it was waaaaay stronger than other level 5 poisons and said "this has got to be wrong, we're not allowing this, let's see if it gets fixed the next time they reprint Treasure Vault".
So I wouldn't try to evaluate a main class feature based on whether it would work badly with a specific option that's clear broken itself.
Just as an aside; Clown Monarch poison isn't just restricted from use in perpetual infusions. It's "Restricted" which is PFS speak for banned entirely.
Basically, when PFS got the book and went through it they saw that as a level 5 poison it was waaaaay stronger than other level 5 poisons and said "this has got to be wrong, we're not allowing this, let's see if it gets fixed the next time they reprint Treasure Vault".
So I wouldn't try to evaluate a main class feature based on whether it would work badly with a specific option that's clear broken itself.
Ah thank you. I didn't want to put much emphasis on what I've heard second hand. Supposedly that Tox was allowed to use the poisons + the infinite/lasting Perpetual poisons regardless
The catch is that activating the poison does nothing to extend its duration, hence the realization that even Smokestick clouds or elixir ***buffs*** are supposed to disappear at the Alch's next turn...
Um... no.
The effects of quick alch'd items do not end at the end of the turn. The ability to activate the alchemical item expires, if you will, at the end of the turn. If it is activated before then, it lasts its listed duration.
Let's read Infused + Quick Alch again.
Quick Alchemy:
You create a single alchemical consumable item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that's in your formula book without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn.
The Infused trait:
You created an alchemical item with the infused trait using your infused reagents, and it has a limited time before it becomes inert. Any nonpermanent effects from your infused alchemical items, with the exception of afflictions such as slow-acting poisons, end when you make your daily preparations again.
There's no getting around it. The rules call out afflictions caused by alchemical items as the **exception** that get to remain after the item becomes inert. Any other non permanent effects, which includes an elixir buff or cloud of smoke, vanish when the item looses potency. As well as the poison slathered onto a blade.
Please, please actually read the Quick Alchemy blurb. There's noting in there that even mentions activations/ect.
The "poison becomes infinite when its put on a blade" is completely made up, without any base rule to twist and justify itself.
A Toxicologist must spend two actions to apply a poison. So, barring additional feats and/or later class features, unless they're Hasted, it's impossible to accomplish. Now that is TBTBT.
Umm... no. Now I'm a bit worried for you.
At LvL1, a feature of the Toxicologist is that applying Injury poison is a 1 action, not 2 action, activity.
I guess it goes to show how much that lasting Quick Alch cheat can affect your playstyle, if a newbie Chirugeon's more familiar.
That option is there because the designers think it's a valid use-case.
I don't know if this was changed in errata when I wasn't looking, or if it's always been there, but there's this bit too:
You specialize in toxins and venoms of all types. You start with the formulas for two common 1st-level alchemical poisons in your formula book, in addition to your other formulas. You can apply an injury poison you're holding to a weapon you're wielding as a single action, rather than as a 2-action activity, and you can change the DCs of your infused poisons to your class DC if it's higher.
That's huge, and fixes a big gap. With that, the Class DC scaling issue is not dependent upon Quick Alchemy creations to dodge. The daily Advanced Alch poisons get to be Class DC w/ no extra steps, while on-level poisons are still higher. Whiiiiiich does put further weight on the idea that it's how the "all-day poisoned gear" is supposed to work.
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There's no getting around it. The rules call out afflictions caused by alchemical items as the **exception** that get to remain after the item becomes inert. Any other non permanent effects, which includes an elixir buff or cloud of smoke, vanish when the item looses potency.
The poisonous substance on the blade is not an affliction. The effect on a target that failed its fort save is an affliction. Huge difference. The poison, from an infused alchemical item, on the blade "evaporates" at the next prep. The effects of the poison on a target struck by such a poisoned weapon and failing its fort save does not.
Please, please actually read the Quick Alchemy blurb. There's noting in there that even mentions activations/ect.
The "poison becomes infinite when its put on a blade" is completely made up, without any base rule to twist and justify itself.
It doesn't have to mention activation because consumable alchemical items are used by activating them.
Please, please actually read the injury trait:
An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon or ammunition, and it affects the target of the first Strike made using the poisoned item. If that Strike is a success and deals piercing or slashing damage, the target must attempt a saving throw against the poison. On a failed Strike, the target is unaffected, but the poison remains on the weapon and you can try again. On a critical failure, or if the Strike fails to deal slashing or piercing damage for some other reason, the poison is spent but the target is unaffected.
(Emphasis added.)
A Toxicologist must spend two actions to apply a poison. [Snip]
Umm... no. Now I'm a bit worried for you.
At LvL1, a feature of the Toxicologist is that applying Injury poison is a 1 action, not 2 action, activity.
Doh! That was certainly a senior moment in reading. I totally skipped past "as a single action, rather than" ...
The poisonous substance on the blade is not an affliction. The effect on a target that failed its fort save is an affliction. Huge difference. The poison, from an infused alchemical item, on the blade "evaporates" at the next prep. The effects of the poison on a target struck by such a poisoned weapon and failing its fort save does not.
The Infused trait blurb is the base, for Advanced Alchemy that is done at daily prep.
That blurb ties the potency / becoming inert to the item's ability to affect anything. Only afflictions persisted after "becomes inert"
Quick Alchemy is the specific override of Infused. No longer does the item become inert at the next daily prep, but at the start of the Alch's next turn.
Poison that's on a blade is not an ongoing affliction. As that is not the one exception that does not fade when "becomes inert," the poison is no longer usable, and cannot cause an affliction. This timeout would also affect the buff of an elixir drunk during the short Quick Alch window.
Hence, ALL Alchemist play is breaking the rules, and an official change is sorely needed.
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You keep talking about "activating" alchemical items. I have no idea where this comes from, nor why it would matter.
I'm guessing some house-rule got spread as real for some reason, and I ask you where you heard / read it.
There's no rule I can find that references "activating" an item having any relevance. It's not in Infused, Quick Alchemy, nor anywhere I can see.
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I think the main thing to keep in mind is that with your ruling quick alchemy poisons become nearly impossible to use, non-toxiclogist flat out can't poison their own weapon and attack and toxicologist have exactly one action to do so and poisons just aren't strong enough to justify spending 3 actions to give your ally one turn with it. Same thing with mutagens, you would need to spend 2 actions to buff your last action, so unless you want to read 3/4 perpetual infusions were printed to be basically useless (Chirurgeon used to only be able to make antidote and antiplague with their perpetual) it's reasonable to read it as using an item lets you keep the effect for the normal duration.
I'm pretty sure the difficulty /absurdity of Quick Injury poisons is why Inhaled poisons were invented, as they have the action cost of a Cantrip, and can be quite good. There's just like 0 options to choose from, as if they meant to come back later and fill out the list, but never did.
More importantly, this is precisely the kind of "let's ignore the rules because they are dumb" kind of thinking I'm trying to clear out.
All this does is stop anyone from even noticing there's a problem that needs fixing, and we do need Pazio to fix this.
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Tox would still be able to pre-poison things, just with their daily prep items, which as discovered get scaling Class DC.
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Mutagenicist interestingly gets features like Flashback as a free Action, so sipping a Quick one would render it available to flashback to.
They also have access to the Feat Revivifying Mutagen, which would let them spend a final action to burn the mutagen into healing instead of letting it time out.
And in addition to the Enduring Alchemy Feat to add a bit more time, there's the Treasure Vault item Alchemical Chart that adds 1 more round to Quick Alch items when held.
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While I agree that the designers are crazy stingy with their implementation of an Alchemist being able to create any formula gained item on the fly, all I have said is clearly the rules as they are intended to function.
I totally get that the real state of alchemist is not OK, and it's clear that the entire class was designed around Bomber first. Bombers have no issue w/ their Perpetual items going inert so soon.
...and the horrid design of Double Brew and Alchemical Alacrity is as much of a dead giveaway as it gets for the whole class being Bomber, not Alchemist. Honestly a little surprised that Alchemist was published as is. And surprised it's not been fixed since then.
All I have said is clearly the rules as they are intended to functionI don't think they are, I just think whoever wrote up quick alchemy forgot about the exact wording of the infused trait (which would make sense, alchemist had a problem of mutagenist giving unarmed proficiency scaling after it had become standard for everyone so the class probably wasn't proofread super well) and nobody really noticed probably because "I have 1 turn to use this" makes the most sense to people with how its worded.
I don't think so, as the same "potency" which infused indicates is the time limit for all but afflictions, is used across everything else, from the Enduring Alchemy Feat to the Alchemical Charts that were as recent as the Treasure Vault.
IMO, it's more likely some designer looked at the Alchemist Class for the Treasure Vault, and did some "simpsons awkward collar tug" as they realized the issue and tried to help a little with the Alchemical Charts, which came from nowhere.
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There is nothing to good to be true about Perpetual Infusions applying injury poisons to all the weapons they can get there hands on.
Nothing game breaking about it compared to other classes features.
if its not intended it sure should be.
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So after thinking about it, I think Trip has a bit of a point, although I don't agree entirely.
1. The rules aim to be easy to understand. The rules for explaining why which thing the alchemist does lasts for how long is NOT easy to understand.
2. For something made from reagents at breakfast, the intent is that it doesn't last beyond the day, unless it's some suuuuuper long acting poison.
3. This seems to be inherited by quick alchemy, but then last for only one round. But not 100%;
- if you make a bomb with quick alchemy, you have to use it immediately, that's clear
- but if your acid bomb gives something persistent acid damage, the persistent damage is supposed to stick around for a while, not end at the end of the round.
4. If you made a poison with quick alchemy you would expect that you need to apply it to a weapon that round, but that then you'd have some time to actually land a hit. You could also pre-apply poisons on your allies' weapons pre-battle, which is fine and balanced because you have only so many reagents.
5. Perpetual Infusions is supposed to give you unlimited amounts of stuff that's a couple of levels below your normal level, so not that powerful. This works fine for bombs and such. At level 11, having unlimited level 5 bombs is not unbalancing. They don't last long enough to hand out heaps of them to everyone pre-combat.
6. Using perpetual infusions to make lots of normal poisons with their normal listed DC and applying them all to weapons pre-combat should maybe work? But the DC of say, a level 5 poison at level 11 is so low, it's basically pointless.
7. Toxicologist breaks this idea a bit, because they hike the save DC for low level poisons to still be relevant. And many poisons cause status effects that remain significant even if the poison damage is poor. If at level 11 you can make lots of hunting spider venom (a level 5 poison), it still causes flat-footed and clumsy, which is always a nice debuff. So unlike the low level bombs, perpetual poisons with hiked DCs can be pretty strong.
So it's a bit under/over: either it's too bad, or it's maybe a bit too good.
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TL;DR - I'm not sure if these rules are working well. I know for sure these rules are not easy enough to understand confidently. They're noticeably more complicated and ambiguous than other parts of the game system.
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There's also the idea that Perpetuals trade Action cost for being used in combat.
Half the balance behind it is that your Daily bombs/Injury poisons, ect, can be prepped to avoid wasting time in combat.
That's like, the entire trade for being infinite. No longer costing resources, but combat actions.
If Injury poisons do not need to cost actions, that concept is broken.
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Bomber has more nuance, as Quick Alch allows one to do that higher action cost for an Additive that improves the bomb in a way that can't be done w/ the daily prep version.
As far as the Bomb effects sticking around, that's covered by the "one exception" clause. I think. "Any nonpermanent effects from your infused alchemical items, with the exception of afflictions such as slow-acting poisons, end when you make your daily preparations again."
I actually don't like them using the word affliction there, as it's too specific to not question why they wouldn't say something more general to clearly signal persistent damage, ect is included. But, as poisons are literally the only affliction an Alch can inflict, yet it's clearly worded to be just one example of what an Alch can do ("such as"), I think it was meant more broadly.
But until/unless Quick Alchemy changes, there's literally 0 in there to alter what fades and what doesn't. Inflicted afflictions (which I do think was intended to include all sorts of debuffs, persistent dmg, ect) get to remain, everything else fades.
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Again unlike Bomber, Tox can buff the whole party, and those poisons have gold value. Comparing it to casing buffs like spell scrolls might make a few people click with how nuts the power/gold value of "jus put it on a blade and it'll last all day!" ruling would be.
Let's not forget that spells still cost actions in combat, while prep poisons do not. Such completely no-cost enhancements are the rarest thing in the entire game system, which seems downright allergic to the concept of pre-buffing.
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And all the options to make Quick Alchemy last longer would not be there, nor be so stingy, if this Quick Alch fading thing was not a big deal to some Alchemist designer.
Either way, it's clear that as-is cannot stand, and we do need to get Paizo's attention somehow.
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Bottled Lightning applies Off-Guard on a hit; Frost Vials, Goo Grenades and Tanglefoots lower speed; Thunderstones can temporarily deafen; Dread Ampoules apply Frightened; Sulfur Bombs and Skunk Bombs sicken (and possibly slow). All these work on a hit, with the only exception being Skunk Bombs. Meanwhile poisons require a hit AND a save.
Why is it that poisons are bad again?
Also, Alchemist is being re-published in Core 2. Just wait until then to see what they change.
Bottled Lightning applies Off-Guard on a hit; Frost Vials, Goo Grenades and Tanglefoots lower speed; Thunderstones can temporarily deafen; Dread Ampoules apply Frightened; Sulfur Bombs and Skunk Bombs sicken (and possibly slow). All these work on a hit, with the only exception being Skunk Bombs. Meanwhile poisons require a hit AND a save.
Why is it that poisons are bad again?
Also, Alchemist is being re-published in Core 2. Just wait until then to see what they change.
Because that's a commitment to an entirely separate action?
Poisons make what martials were going to do flat better. There's 0 tradeoff, no alteration. No competing for rune or talisman slots.
And their effects are severe. Clown Monarch, a common, sends the enemy prone.
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Think of the Concealed condition. An enemy needs to roll a >4 in order to hit. Only 4/20 chance to miss. Yet it's very worth doing, even when some actions are required to set it up.
If an enemy has great Fort, they may need to roll a 4 or lower to fail the poison. On each hit of poisoned ammo.
When it's free, with 0 cost or downside, that's very, very good.
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You keep bringing up a poison that multiple people have said it way over-powered, and even banned in PFS. A more common poison would be Hunting Spider Venom, since it makes enemies off guard at Stage 1.
So you poison the fighter's swords with Hunting Spider Venom before a fight, giving him two doses. Your DC at level 11 is 30, so the venom has a DC 30 Fort save. You're fighting a Level 13 boss, let's say, a Gelugon (AKA Ice Devil).
At AC 34, the Fighter with +24 to hit has a 55% chance to land a Strike, and a 5% chance to lose the poison all together. If they have a flank, it jumps to 65% to hit. After landing a Strike, the Gelugon with a +24 fort save now has a 25% chance to fail (5% to crit fail). Together, the Gelugon only has a 13.75% chance to become poisoned, 16.75% with a flank, thus becoming off guard. The fighter can only do this twice this fight, once for each sword. Meanwhile, the Fighter has a 5% chance to crit, making the devil automatically Off Guard for one round, or a 15% chance to crit with a flank, almost as good a chance as the poison.
On the other hand, a Bomber throwing a Bottle Lightning of any level has a +21 to hit due to Alchemist Goggles, giving them a 40% chance to hit, and on a hit the Gelugon becomes off guard for a round. This is a much better way of applying a condition, and it's still free with no downside, and can be done for the whole combat.
This doesn't even cover the vast number of creatures who are outright immune to poisons, which bombs work on just fine.
My advice, you are thinking way too much into this. Perpetual poisons are fine.
You keep bringing up a poison that multiple people have said it way over-powered, and even banned in PFS. A more common poison would be Hunting Spider Venom, since it makes enemies off guard at Stage 1.
So you poison the fighter's swords with Hunting Spider Venom before a fight, giving him two doses. Your DC at level 11 is 30, so the venom has a DC 30 Fort save. You're fighting a Level 13 boss, let's say, a Gelugon (AKA Ice Devil).
At AC 34, the Fighter with +24 to hit has a 55% chance to land a Strike, and a 5% chance to lose the poison all together. If they have a flank, it jumps to 65% to hit. After landing a Strike, the Gelugon with a +24 fort save now has a 25% chance to fail (5% to crit fail). Together, the Gelugon only has a 13.75% chance to become poisoned, 16.75% with a flank, thus becoming off guard. The fighter can only do this twice this fight, once for each sword. Meanwhile, the Fighter has a 5% chance to crit, making the devil automatically Off Guard for one round, or a 15% chance to crit with a flank, almost as good a chance as the poison.
On the other hand, a Bomber throwing a Bottle Lightning of any level has a +21 to hit due to Alchemist Goggles, giving them a 40% chance to hit, and on a hit the Gelugon becomes off guard for a round. This is a much better way of applying a condition, and it's still free with no downside, and can be done for the whole combat.
This doesn't even cover the vast number of creatures who are outright immune to poisons, which bombs work on just fine.
My advice, you are thinking way too much into this. Perpetual poisons are fine.
That's super high dude, and only PFS players will even know that the common poison has been banned restricted.
Moreover, why the heck is your example limiting it to two doses? That's the poison being used as the designers intended, budgeted in a way that the daily prep Reagents that *do* have a resource cost could cover.
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With the lasting Perpetuals version, you have no reason NOT to poison EVERYTHING. If we spitball a "normal" party, it fair to include a magic user who's not going to strike, but it's also fair to include a ranged martial, such as a gunslinger or ranger. There's no concern about the blade running dry when it's ammo. And this gets to refresh after every single break between combats. And multiple exposures can stack to jump down the affliction levels. If the Alch gets access to any uncommons, there's a whole host of low level injury poisons with great debuffs that never will be outleveled. Even your example jumps to +clusmy1, then clumsy2, which is crazy good effect that many would spend actions attempting to inflict on its own. Injury poison just does it for free.
In your example, there's no reason for it to have been one or the other! Any Alch would have done both the poison and the lightning bottle (or a dread ampoule), and this is key to understanding the issue. Even a Bomber specialist aware of the exploit would take the Breadth feat to buff the other 3/4 of his party.
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It is genuinely alien to me that people do not see this as obviously broken, completely whack compared to anything else the Alchemist can do. The existence of Clown Monarch SHOULD be forcing people to look at the underlying problem beneath that is causing the issue (quick alchemy's rules being so bad and ignored), not banning one item and washing their hands of it all.
People are complaining about wood Kineticist's tree being OP, something that takes 2 actions every singe use.
This unlimited poison is an out-of-combat activity that offers a no-cost upgrade, **for the whole party**
If you had a Ranger Feat that said, "...your ammunition is coated in poison. Any Strike you land that does damage invokes a Class DC Fort save..." you can bet your ass they would all take that Feat.
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This unlimited poison is an out-of-combat activity that offers a no-cost upgrade, **for the whole party**
If you had a Ranger Feat that said, "...your ammunition is coated in poison. Any Strike you land that does damage invokes a Class DC Fort save..." you can bet your ass they would all take that Feat.
I think what I disagree about, and maybe why you're not seeing much of a fuss, is that there is a cost. The cost is being a toxicologist alchemist. I'd definitely take that feat on a ranger, but then I'm still a ranger even without the feat. Alchemist is the hardest class in the game to play well, and toxicologist sacrifices what any other research specialty can bring to bear to be good at poisoning things. It is a swell buff, particularly if you have archers in the party. But it does nothing for casters and has much smaller returns for melee characters. A wide variety of enemies are immune or resistant to it. Its use case is narrower than you'd think. I'm sort of inclined to let it be really good within that use case.
Which isn't to say they shouldn't clean up rules in the class in player core 2. But I'd be inclined to keep allowing this interaction until then.
I think what I disagree about, and maybe why you're not seeing much of a fuss, is that there is a cost. The cost is being a toxicologist alchemist. I'd definitely take that feat on a ranger, but then I'm still a ranger even without the feat. Alchemist is the hardest class in the game to play well, and toxicologist sacrifices what any other research specialty can bring to bear to be good at poisoning things. It is a swell buff, particularly if you have archers in the party. But it does nothing for casters and has much smaller returns for melee characters. A wide variety of enemies are immune or resistant to it. Its use case is narrower than you'd think. I'm sort of inclined to let it be really good within that use case.Which isn't to say they shouldn't clean up rules in the class in player core 2. But I'd be inclined to keep allowing this interaction until then.
I greatly appreciate the real argument/point you are making here.
As is now getting lost in the length of this, A Tox will get access to this break at LvL 7. Any class that has to sit through 6 levels of carefully budgeting a few poison exposures here and, then jump to infinite at 7, is horribly in need of a redesign.
Moreover, as mentioned, the Prepetual Breadth Feat exists.
I am having the most fun as a Chiurgeon by admitting "well, these Class Feats suck" and taking them from elsewhere.
LvL 8 is the earliest I could take Perpetual Breadth. If this break/cheat is allowed, every Alchemist, not just Tox, is going to want to take this at level 8, and then retrain into it at Lvl 12.
Any Martial class would kill for such a "you get free Class DC poison to refresh after every combat"
And Alchemist IS A MARTIAL.
In this same bout of discovery, I've learned that the PFS player loves to poison their own bombs!, though many of the Piercing/Slashing causing bombs are uncommon.
I personally am an Alch / Investigator, and after finally switching to a shortbow from the Rotary Xbow, I'm shooting more arrows than throwing bombs. If I didn't have the budget to prepare a 1-action Quick bomb, it's almost never worth it to Quick-->throw. (we started as a 3 player party for Abm Vlts, and had 2 newbies, hence the dual class)
And, after the decent dump of Alchemical ammunition in Treasure Vault, it seems like Paizo are finally admitting Alchemists need more than bombs to fight with.
This "one Feat allows any combat break to full poison the party" is likely better than any martial Feat out there (I certainly lack the systems knowledge to say as such). Almost every Feat is constrained hugely by circumstance, this is only limited to Pierce & Slashing damage. Those kinds of flat better upgrades are tiny +1-4 dmg per strike kind of "this weapon Specialist" Feats.
That's not OK. If I want Tox to be better, and Alch to be better, I have to look at that OP b&#!~%+# I'd get next level, and say "noooooope"
If there's a designer giving the thumbs up to the infinite poisons, that means he's allocating a huge amount of the class' power budget into that one exploit, and in order to get the Alchemist fixed/ buffed elsewhere, we need that gone.
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I'm pretty new to pf2e, and I've finally come across what seems to be a common Toxicologist "strategy".
The claim is that slathering poison onto a blade or ammunition "activates" the poison, like popping a Smokestick. As anyone who's played with an Alchemist knows, the smoke gets to stay around.
According to the theory, this means that Perpetual Infusions can use Quick Alchemy to coat every single piece of ammo and compatible weapon for the whole party. Literally all of them.
With injury poisons like Clown Monarch that trigger at minimum 1 Prone fall each failed save (better than burning an action like Slow!), and with Quick Alchemy scaling the save DC, this invoked some serious "too good to be true" investigation on my part.
I haven't read everything, but it looks like the discussion didn't come to a conclusion.
This is very far from "too good to be true", that's just poison. You poison your allies weapons so their first attack is stronger, it's part of the Alchemist budget: You are a support character and as such you can't get to the same efficiency than martials (for example) without taking your support abilities into account.
As a side note, Poison (with a decent DC) is only accessible to Alchemist. So that's very important for it. And from first hand experience it's quite strong without being overwhelmingly strong (very far from it).
Works as intended.
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There are a lot of common enemies immune to poison, and most every enemy has a good Fortitude Save.
Yeah, no, poisons are bad and are mostly a GM tool to damage/beat down players.
Well, it looks like grey areas are not to everyone's taste.
I've personally used poison a lot. Both solely for others (with my Chirurgeon) and for both me and my allies (with my Mutagenist).
Overall, Poison works a third of the time. It's both low and quite high as it doesn't cost anything but reagents. It's, surprisingly, nasty against bosses: As they take attacks from all PCs, they roll a lot of Fortitude saves. Also, the debuff part of poison is rarely strong against mooks but is definitely a must have for bosses.
I've found that using it on my Chirurgeon was nice but not stellar, using it on my Mutagenist was much more interesting as I'm also using it myself, increasing the chances to apply it.
For me, it roughly works as intended. It could be slightly stronger at low level. Once at mid level it becomes much more of a strong move with damage piling on on a failed save.
Overall, Poison works a third of the time. It's both low and quite high as it doesn't cost anything but reagents. It's, surprisingly, nasty against bosses: As they take attacks from all PCs, they roll a lot of Fortitude saves. Also, the debuff part of poison is rarely strong against mooks but is definitely a must have for bosses.
If it is costing Reagents, that's good. I'd seriously buff Tox by giving the Field a 4 or 5:1 ratio of on-topic items during daily prep.
And I'd rework/trade Quick Alch for "Wells," that need to be prepped, and start w/ 1 freebie that matches the subclass, w/ the Alch popping the auto-refilling items off their Wells to use in combat. Quick Alch would become a 1 or 10 min out of combat brew that would last the rest of the day, maybe the as played now version being an unlocked class feature.
Sorry, on topic, and the whole reason for posting:
What we are talking about here is the Quick Alchemy + Infused rules being ignored, and for any Alch with Perpetual Injury poison getting to cheat the short timeout.
It seems the default ruling online is to say that "activating" an alch item for some reason extends its duration, when no such rule exists. Nowhere is there anything to indicate "using" an item gets to cheat the duration, and the rules explicitly prevent that.
This mis-read leads to a single Class Feat (Perpetual Breadth) enabling infinite, lasting, poisoning of every weapon the party has compatible. No reagent cost, negligible downtime needed between combats to reapply.
That's insane, and it seems the Alch-savvy don't want to admit everyone is doing Quick Alch wrong, while others say "Alch needs a buff, so I'll allow it" without even caring about the actual truth under the hood. Straight up "feels over reals"
If the Quick Alch rules were followed, there would be no need to ban the Clown Monarch or Mustard Powder. If resources are being spent on the *chance* of an affliction, that's fine.
However if played straight, the class would become even more prep-focused than it already is, and because players don't *want* to make that trade, it's a serious struggle to get the on-page reality out there.
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It seems the default ruling online is to say that "activating" an alch item for some reason extends its duration, when no such rule exists. Nowhere is there anything to indicate "using" an item gets to cheat the duration, and the rules explicitly prevent that.
This mis-read leads to a single Class Feat (Perpetual Breadth) enabling infinite, lasting, poisoning of every weapon the party has compatible. No reagent cost, negligible downtime needed between combats to reapply.
Yeah, so what?
I'm used to poison all my allies weapons as early as level 1. It's not strong or whatever. Having access at level 11 with either a level 8 class feat or a Research Field to poison without reagent expenditure is... ok. Nothing insane or whatever. Poison is not insane. I agree that it's quite strong, and it may be the reason behind Clown Monarch being banned from PFS. But it's not breaking the game or whatever, it's a nice but expensive ability.There are other issues in the game that are much more problematic to me and much more easy to use (Diverse Lore, Starlit Span, etc...).
It seems the default ruling online is to say that "activating" an alch item for some reason extends its duration, when no such rule exists. Nowhere is there anything to indicate "using" an item gets to cheat the duration, and the rules explicitly prevent that.
This mis-read leads to a single Class Feat (Perpetual Breadth) enabling infinite, lasting, poisoning of every weapon the party has compatible. No reagent cost, negligible downtime needed between combats to reapply.
Yeah, so what?
I'm used to poison all my allies weapons as early as level 1. It's not strong or whatever. Having access at level 11 with either a level 8 class feat or a Research Field to poison without reagent expenditure is... ok. Nothing insane or whatever. Poison is not insane. I agree that it's quite strong, and it may be the reason behind Clown Monarch being banned from PFS. But it's not breaking the game or whatever, it's a nice but expensive ability.There are other issues in the game that are much more problematic to me and much more easy to use (Diverse Lore, Starlit Span, etc...).
Wow. Seriously?
You really don't see any balance issue with a single Feat re-poisoning the whole party, after every combat?
As has been mentioned before, that beats any martial Feat that I'm aware of in the "flat auto upgrade" department by a mile.
And any Alchemist can grab this.
Even the Gold Standard high-level brokenness of Eternal Elixir at LvL 16 only affects the Alch. And that's just a duration extension, which requires a bum Feat as a prerequisite. And requires LvL18 Improbable Elixirs to actually get wild. Three Feats, LvL 18, still only affects the Alch with buffs they can already get, just saves resources, gold, and hassle to make/buy. Sound familiar?
This would provide a scaling poison on every blade, every bit of ammo, of the whole party, for a single Feat, at LvL 8.
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Poisons have a gold cost, too.
The cheapest DC 24 (lvl 8 class DC, LvL6 item) injury poison, Antipode Oil, is 45gp a pop. You want to start doing napkin math on the number of poisoned Strikes per day that a party would make?
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I honestly did not expect the reluctance to be this bad.
Do you really think this normal and inline with the existing game balance?
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If you read Infused + Quick Alchemy, can honestly say that Quick Alch poison slathered on a blade was ever intended to stay indefinitely?
Right now, I'm not asking if you think this is a "fair" houserule to buff Alch. I'm not asking if Tox needs a buff.
I'm trying to spread comprehension of the reality in the books, the books that many players will have as their only source (no comments on AoN), and ask you to interpret the rules as they are written and were intended.
If you agree that Alch's not supposed to be doing this, then we agree that Paizo needs to change something, asap. The way to do that requires the honest awareness of the real rules is spread far enough to reach them.
Shutting down the conversation with "Yeah, so what?" followed by gaslighting of the power behind that one mis-used Feat is the opposite of helpful. I'm well aware that the real Quick Alch rules are neigh unusable (for anyone aside from a mad bomber).
You really don't see any balance issue with a single Feat re-poisoning the whole party, after every combat?
Repoisoning the whole party after every combat is a class feature. The feat just reduces the cost.
I honestly did not expect the reluctance to be this bad.
Thanks. I don't think I insulted you.
Also, what's your experience with Poison as an Alchemist? If we start personal attacks I'm really questioning if you have a good grasp about what you're talking about.
I'm one of the few to defend Poison in general, so I'm very far from "reluctant". I'm fully aware of the existence of Clown Monarch which is an outlier when it comes to poison. For a lot of reasons, it saves the Toxicologist Research Field from being completely useless.
I personally don't allow Quick Alchemy Poisons to stay indefinitely even if I know other people who use this rule: Both interpretations are fine anyway. And even if I disagree with them it is not something that breaks or imbalance the game in any way so I don't think there's much to add. The only weird thing this reading is allowing is to poison an entire army, which is in my opinion broken. But also mostly useless in the context of an adventuring party.
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If perpetual infusions effects end at the end of your turn, then the Bomber would be super nerfed. No status, no persistent damage, nothing. It would also make mutagenist completely unusable. Considering that they would have to spend 2 actions making and drinking their mutagen every turn. Antidotes and antiplague would also not work, considering that the saves happen on the player's turn.
So I think if you don't use the item, it will disappear; but any effects the item gives will last for the listed duration.
The thing with Poison and the reason of both ruling is that Poison is first put on the blade then applied to the target. Once applied to the target, everyone agrees on the effect duration. It's the time the poison stays potent on the blade that raises this discussion. Some consider it's one round (or 24 hours in the case of Advanced Alchemy), others consider it stays indefinitely.
If you consider it's indefinitely, it breaks some assumptions about the Alchemist. Especially regarding Advanced Alchemy as you can poison the weapons one day and then make other Alchemical Items with your reagents the next day. That's why I think this rule is wrong from an RAI point of view. But from a RAW point of view, it's unclear.
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Level 11 is far from "super high". There are two scenarios that allow for level 11 PCs, and one on the horizon. I used level 11 as an example because that's when you get your free level 5 poisons. Before then, it's only level 1, meaning you're likely only using Giant Centipede Venom, which only makes the target off-guard at stage 2.
I am only using two doses as an example of a two-weapon fighter. Ranged characters can't benefit from flanking, so I used a melee fighter just to show the benefit of a flank on the crit, and used swords because they do basically the same thing on a crit as the poison does on a failed save. Making a target off-guard to everyone helps the entire party, so that's the goal when it comes to using Hunting Spider Venom.
Then I compared it to Bottled Lightning, which has a much better chance of making an enemy off-guard when compared to a poison. Other things like Tripping and Grabbing have a much better chance as well. The only benefit poison has over all those is they might take some more damage at the same time.
If you are playing a home game, the GM has every right to ban certain options. If the GM thinks Monarch Poison is too good, they can ban it. If you as a player think it's too good, then don't use it.
As others are mentioning, being a Toxicologist is a straight debuff compared to a bomber who gets infinite and stronger bombs, a Chirurgeon who gets infinite heals, or a Mutagenist who gets infinite buffs. All the above have ways around creatures who are immune to their stuff, while a toxicologist going up against constructs is pretty useless.
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I don't see any issue here at all, even with the Clown Monarch poison which apparently was considered too powerful for PFS(?) as it requires actions to create, apply, and then strike all while still affording Fort saves to negate.
There are things in the system that are not balanced against comparable level options given to other classes and exactly zero of them come from the Alchemist.
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I think the reason it was restricted in PFS was the power of it compared to something like Hunting Spider Venom, which is the same level and rarity.
Clown Monarch makes the target prone, meaning they are off-guard and need to spend an action to stand (which triggers a bunch of reactions), and there is a flat check otherwise you can't stand at all. At stage 3 the DC is 15, meaning you only have a 30% chance to stand at all. Someone has mentioned somewhere that it goes against the whole "perma prone" issue that they have been trying to fix since 1e.
If perpetual infusions effects end at the end of your turn, then the Bomber would be super nerfed. No status, no persistent damage, nothing. It would also make mutagenist completely unusable. Considering that they would have to spend 2 actions making and drinking their mutagen every turn. Antidotes and antiplague would also not work, considering that the saves happen on the player's turn.
So I think if you don't use the item, it will disappear; but any effects the item gives will last for the listed duration.
Yes, exactly the reason I made the thread.
I ask that you read just these two blurbs and think of how one could possibly read them any other way:
Infused:
You created an alchemical item with the infused trait using your infused reagents, and it has a limited time before it becomes inert. Any nonpermanent effects from your infused alchemical items, with the exception of afflictions such as slow-acting poisons, end when you make your daily preparations again.
Quick Alchemy:
You swiftly mix up a short-lived alchemical item to use at a moment's notice. You create a single alchemical consumable item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that's in your formula book without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn.
If you agree this is RaW, next step is to present reason for thinking this is RaI.
Muta in specific has features designed to work with this, as if that short duration was integrated into the subclass design. Flashback is a free action, and works to extend an emergency Perpetual. Revivifying Mutagen makes a whole lot more sense if the Alch's mutagen would expire in combat, allowing them to choose to burn it for healing. Even more sense if Enduring Alchemy is taken, to allow for more time before burning it. Some Mutagens, like Jugg, are perfect for a 1-turn buff.
Another interesting thing to notice is how many bombs inflict 1-round, on hit no save effects. Like they were designed around an Alch inflicting them each round to maintain.
I was online and reading during the release of the Treasure Vault. In there, they added Skunk Bombs as common. There were significant cries of OP there, and for good reason. A really good chance to put sickened on your primary target, and decent chance of it on splash targets.
Moreover, unlike other conditions such as Fear, Sickened does not expire on its own. A Perpetual Skunk with scaling DC, that can eat enemy actions to retch? That's *amazing*, and way better than any debuff bomb we've seen.
If it was always intended to expire after 1 round at base, without retching, then suddenly it makes perfect sense.
Dread Ampule does more damage, and of a more favorable type, for a guaranteed equivalent debuff on hit.
This RaI Skunk would trade the chance of no debuff on crit save for the primary, but allow for AoE debuffing, at the cost of damage and being poison type.
In that 1-turn fade scenario, it's still a bit of power creep, but it matches very well with the options already available.
What if an Alch really wants that debuff to stick around?
Well, Trsr Vlt added the Alchemical Chart, allowing an Alch to trade a hand to get that Sickened to stick around much longer.
If all Quick items were intended to stay around after "being activated," the use-case for Alchemical Chart is only to brew on the last action, and use on the next turn, much, much more niche to the point of "why bother". I honestly can't imagine either dedicating a hand to it the whole time, or *spending an action to draw the item* mid combat. It's basically worthless to anyone not hucking Perpetual Bombs, and super niche for said Bombers.
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I don't see any issue here at all, even with the Clown Monarch poison which apparently was considered too powerful for PFS(?) as it requires actions to create, apply, and then strike all while still affording Fort saves to negate.
This is the tricky bit with this conversation, there's multiple groups talking past each other.
You are completely correct, if an Alch sees a grappled, sickened foe, decides to brew-->apply-->strike with a Perpetual Clown, that's totally balanced, and both RaW & RaI. Even with the no-Reagent Perpetual, that was an investment of actions to make possible.
The issue is that they are instead Quick Alchemy making Injury Poisons out of combat, slathering them on everything, and saying it gets to not go inert because it has "been activated."
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I am asking people to read those two rule blurbs. If we can agree with the RaW, then even if there's disagreement on RaI, we need to make certain Paizo is aware of the issue, as I've *never* heard of a table that plays the actual RaW.
I'm trying to avoid a scenario where Alch gets re-printed, and this issue is still in there.
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Well, it looks like grey areas are not to everyone's taste.
I've personally used poison a lot. Both solely for others (with my Chirurgeon) and for both me and my allies (with my Mutagenist).
Overall, Poison works a third of the time. It's both low and quite high as it doesn't cost anything but reagents. It's, surprisingly, nasty against bosses: As they take attacks from all PCs, they roll a lot of Fortitude saves. Also, the debuff part of poison is rarely strong against mooks but is definitely a must have for bosses.
I've found that using it on my Chirurgeon was nice but not stellar, using it on my Mutagenist was much more interesting as I'm also using it myself, increasing the chances to apply it.
For me, it roughly works as intended. It could be slightly stronger at low level. Once at mid level it becomes much more of a strong move with damage piling on on a failed save.
Again, plenty of enemies outright immune to poison, and they often have super high Fortitude saves. Sure, they are more likely to roll a 1 over the course of, say, 6 rolls, and if it happens, it's devastating, but immune enemies laugh and non-immune enemies need a bad roll for it to work.
It does about the DPR of a second strike, with the success rate of a consecutive saving throw spell. Neither of which are all that good. But put it in the hands of an NPC with unique poisons, higher DCs, and damage, and it's a potent PC killer, which seems to be the niche it fills.
I think the reason it was restricted in PFS was the power of it compared to something like Hunting Spider Venom, which is the same level and rarity.
Clown Monarch makes the target prone, meaning they are off-guard and need to spend an action to stand (which triggers a bunch of reactions), and there is a flat check otherwise you can't stand at all. At stage 3 the DC is 15, meaning you only have a 30% chance to stand at all. Someone has mentioned somewhere that it goes against the whole "perma prone" issue that they have been trying to fix since 1e.
they do have to fail the fortitude save 3 times (not counting critical fails) and continue to fail that fortitude save and fail that DC 15 check in order to stay prone. And the creature can still do stuff while prone. So it's not a permanent prone.
And it only last for 6 rounds.
I've never had a combat that lasted six rounds that I can recall.
The Slow spell is rank 3, takes 2 actions to cast, is a Fort save, and is a decent, well known point of comparison.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=289
You dilate the flow of time around the target, slowing its actions.Critical Success The target is unaffected.
Success The target is slowed 1 for 1 round.
Failure The target is slowed 1 for 1 minute.
Critical Failure The target is slowed 2 for 1 minute.
While Slow burns actions w/ no way around it, Prone makes the target more vulnerable, and is one of the few conditions that may be preferred over Slow in many cases.
The Clown does not need actions, spell slots, ect. I agree if it does use *some* limited resource, like Reagents, it's fine. As soon as a cost like that is a part of the equation, there's opportunity cost involved, turning the Reagents into poison *instead of* bombs, mutagens, ect.
If it's a forever free poison only needs one Feat to make infinite, and never takes actions in combat, that's why it's a problem. The opportunity cost VS other Feats, such as upgrading a single mutagen only when you take it, is a joke. If I had to choose between Eternal Elixir(16) VS the Perpetual poison cheat, I'd pick the poison 100% of the time, and I'd really question any Alch that would not do the same.
I still have yet to hear anyone disagree w/ my interpretation of the RaW Quick Alchemy, and I see this "too bad/good to be true" as a distraction that continues to suppress the core issue from being discussed/noticed.
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I still have yet to hear anyone disagree w/ my interpretation of the RaW Quick Alchemy, and I see this "too bad/good to be true" as a distraction that continues to suppress the core issue from being discussed/noticed.
RAW indicates that the item becomes inert. So it comes down to the definition of "item". In my opinion, poison on a sword or in a container or spilled on the floor is still an item. Poison in someone's organism is no more an item. But I can see people with a video game mentality considering that Poison on a blade is no more an item as it's no more in your inventory (only the poisoned blade remains).
But put it in the hands of an NPC with unique poisons, higher DCs, and damage, and it's a potent PC killer, which seems to be the niche it fills.
Poison is dangerous at low level, but I've nearly never seen high level poisons that were really that nasty. In general they do extremely low damage compared to Alchemist's poisons and have manageable debuffs.
It does about the DPR of a second strike, with the success rate of a consecutive saving throw spell. Neither of which are all that good.
But it doesn't cost a single action. Poison works roughly a third of the time (so as much as a secondary attack, roughly) and deals nearly a martial attack damage. So it's like a free secondary attack per poison use.
Immunity to poison is definitely a concern, but it's mostly on Undeads and Constructs, so it's very often campaign dependent (at least partly).
I mean... I disagree with your interpretations.
To me the clear RAW is that while Quick Alchemy items are potent for 1 round they most surely have all of their traits. Including Infused trait.
Infused trait says effects last till morning prep.
So it doesn't matter if it's quick or advanced for the EFFECT duration. The only duration that changes is the item duration.
Furthermore, let's look at the trait in question:
Quote:You created an alchemical item with the infused trait using your infused reagents, and it has a limited time before it becomes inert . Any nonpermanent effects from your infused alchemical items, with the exception of afflictions such as slow-acting poisons, end when you make your daily preparations again .
A) It's very clear the trait differates between item and effect duration.
B) item duration is variable
Effect duration is stated.
Thank you for actually disagreeing with me, which enables further discussion.
IMO, the whole reason behind "potent" and "inert" being used is to separate the not-magic effect caused by the items, from the confusion of it being the item itself.
With the phrasing of "This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn."
IMO it's super clear that this is saying "It follows the rules of Infused, but instead of timing out next day, it times out next turn"
Then "timing out" for Infused clearly says: "...has a limited time before it becomes inert. Any nonpermanent effects from your infused alchemical items, with the exception of afflictions such as slow-acting poisons, end..."
To me, that is iron-clad saying that even things caused by Alch items, like Smokestick clouds, or Sickened debuffs! from the new, OP Skunks, all fade away.
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Now, let's remove Quick Alch and talk through the main, real gotcha-grey that I was waiting for someone to bring up (thank you) the "item duration is variable / Effect duration is stated."
Injury Poisons do not have a duration when applied to a weapon.
To try and see if this behavior is intended, we can extrapolate what that ruling would mean.
If daily made, applied poisons were ruled like that, they would be truly permanent, even after you regained the Infused Reagents used to make them the next day.
In addition to downtime shenanigans poisoning an army's worth of arrows,
This would allow an Alch to "dump" any leftover Reagents at the end of a day into poisoned items that will never fade until used. As we can easily understand the very concept of the Infused tag was made to avoid that behavior, we can then understand that ruling is, like totally bogus.
Which then rather straightforwardly puts the "infinite lasting Perpetual poisons" issue to bed.
But where you are wrong is that Infused has 2 different durations, clearly separated.
One is the item duration which is temporary and variable ("limited time before becoming inert").
One is the effect duration which is temporary but set ("lasts until morning preparation").To me, it is clear that when Quick is modifying one duration, it's "obviously" the item one which is also the variable one.
In fact, it would be much briefer and they would have saved spacey, if item and effect duration were one and the same.
Instead, they went out of their way to add way more words, being way more specific.
And by RAW, nothing in Quick references "effect" and ONLY references "item".
The "item" becomes inert, the effect, doesn't.
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edit:
to make more clear where your mistake is, according to my reading.
Infused trait:
2 completely different stated durations (Item duration/Effect duration)
Item duration is only said to be "limited" (that's because it can be "until prep" for Advanced, "until end of turn" for Quick, "until end of next round" with feats and Quick)
Effect duration is said to be "until prep"Quick Alchemy:
Quote:This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn.
There is no mention of anything happenning to the "effect duration" in Quick. Only on "item duration".
Well, the two of us have hit a point of disagreement.
I read
"You created an alchemical item with the infused trait using your infused reagents, and it has a limited time before it becomes inert. Any nonpermanent effects from your infused alchemical items, with the exception of afflictions such as slow-acting poisons, end when you make your daily preparations again."
To mean that there's only one kind of duration being tracked / altered by Infused. I read this to mean the trait is trying to put an umbrella over both the item and effect(s) it may cause, done with the goal of catching things like the injury poisons that don't have a listed duration, but definitely need to time out to avoid an infinite / permanent issue.
The it within "**it** has a limited time before it becomes inert" is clearly talking to the created item. The next bit, "Any nonpermanent effects..." is to also include any effects created by the items, and using the terms potent and inert to encompass all of (item&effects).
I don't know how to read it your way. It states they are temporary in sentence 1, then says how long in sentence 2. If they intended for the item and effect to be considered separately with differing durations, I really think that would have been specified.
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I think I understand what you're trying to reach, that Quick Alchemy does not affect the effect duration, only the item duration. Quick Alchemy changes how long until it becomes inert, the same sort of timeout that's needed to stop exploits like the permanent poison.
The example of injury poisons is there as a case-in-point that I cannot read it your way, else an Alch should be dumping leftover Reagents into forever poisons at the end of each day. The "poison the king's army" ect issue.
Again, avoiding those circumstances is kinda the whole point of the infused trait blurb.
Any nonpermanent effects, such as poison-on-a-sword, except afflictions... blah blah, all fade at the same time as the item.
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It seems the default ruling online is to say that "activating" an alch item for some reason extends its duration, when no such rule exists.
This is incorrect.
The duration of the item never changes (barring outside abilities that specifically change an item's duration like the chart).
However, after you've used and consumed the item, how long the item would have lasted if you never consumed it doesn't matter, because the item doesn't exist anymore. You're no longer dealing with an item.
Any nonpermanent effects, such as poison-on-a-sword, except afflictions... blah blah, all fade at the same time as the item.
You're entitled to houserule alchemy this way if you want, but that's clearly not what the infused trait says at all.
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Simply put, if Quick Alchemy elixir, and thus -ALL- mutagen durations expired the round after they were created, even if they had been consumed, then there is even less point in playing a Mutagenist then there already is.
If Quick Alchemy poisons expired the round after they were created, even if they had already been applied to a weapon, then there is literally no point in playing a Toxicologist.
Yes, Alchemists, as currently written, are not in a stellar position, even with the lengthy rewrites and errata applied to the class. (The possible exception being Chirurgeon and maybe Bomber.)
The fact of the matter is that anything made with alchemical reagents goes away the next time the Alchemist does daily preparations, whether it was made during daily prep, or somehow lasted through Quick Alchemy to that point.
Most GMs are probably going to run with the "you activated it by putting it on the weapon, consuming it, whatever, the normal duration applies", rather than going "haha, I'm going to screw you over even more."
Likewise, most GMs are going to go "those poisons you created through alchemical reagants or Quick Alchemy and then applied to the crossbow bolts that you didn't fire will expire when you do your daily prep."