Do the different Ikon Types have a mechanical niche? Should they?

[Spidermonkeya]

My question is, from a design perspective, are the three types of Ikons (Weapon, Body, Worn) supposed to each have a mechanical niche? It seems like the Weapon Ikon powers are meant to encourage and enable one to attack. The Body Ikon powers tend to revolve around Tanking/Defense/Healing. The Worn Ikon powers tend to be more about supporting the group and mobility.

Though this seems to be the niche, there are some specific Ikons/powers that exist outside these niches. Currently someone can use the Barrow's Edge, Scar of the Survivor and Palisade Bangles to triple-down on tanking abilities. Is this intended?

You cannot use two Ikons simultaneously, so it seems like they should cover different situations, such as one mainly for attacking, another for when you need to focus on defense, or supporting your party. However, the design also makes it so you cannot just use one Ikon all the time -- which would force you to switch between "roles" each turn. With the current slate of Ikons, you could "double down" on tanking by picking Barrow's Edge and Scar of the Survivor, so you have a healing power available to you every turn.

I would prefer the Ikon types to have a niche, but I am also okay if there are a small number of Ikons/feats/epithets that break the niche if someone wants to double down their character.

My concern is that if the Ikon Types do not have a clear niche, it can become confusing on what you should be using your Ikons for. As an example, the Victor's Wreath gives the user +1 to attack -- should I be attacking with this or use my Weapon Ikon?

What do you all think?

[AnimatedPaper]

I think they're pretty clearly defined. Like, yes, Victor's Wreath gives you an attack boost, but it is also giving your allies the same boost, which I think fits the general "support" niche of worn ikons.

Actually, I just realized what is missing with worn ikons. There should be a feat or class ability that allows your worn immanence to still work until the end of your next turn after you transcend. A limited form of Lingering Composition that doesn't consume a focus point I suppose. Higher level feats could add your body and weapon immanence, and increase to 2 rounds, to allow you to have a more stable character sheet.

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

Reading the OP makes my again consider my thoughts on why the Epithet progression is only on one type of Ikon (Body, then Weapon, then Worn) and at particular levels.

If the reason it is a) a stepped progression of only one type at b) certain levels for a particular Ikon because of the mechanics of those Ikons that would make a certain kind of sense. But if they aren’t then it doesn’t make sense to me. Why can’t I focus my Epithets all on Body or Weapon or Worn, OR why can’t I elevate them in a different order other than thencurrent order of Body, Weapon, Worn.

[Spidermonkeya]

Good point, and this feeds into another thought i had. Root epithets are really good, but they are so good that they basically kill Worn Ikons for me. Worn Ikons are kind of weak to begin with (IMO), and this is the nail in the coffin.

[Dubious Scholar]

Spidermonkeya wrote:

Good point, and this feeds into another thought i had. Root epithets are really good, but they are so good that they basically kill Worn Ikons for me. Worn Ikons are kind of weak to begin with (IMO), and this is the nail in the coffin.

Yeah... without body epithet I can see debating between personal defensive benefits and party utility effects, but...

And worn ikons being support auras should play really well with ranged weapon builds! You stand in the back line and keep alternating between support auras and damage spikes to the enemy, the way melee builds are alternating between defenses and damage.

[aobst128]

As a side note, exemplars tripling down on tanking probably fall hard into the tank fallacy

[Spidermonkeya]

aobst128 wrote:

As a side note, exemplars tripling down on tanking probably fall hard into the tank fallacy

I'm not saying its a good idea, just trying to understand the philosophy of the design. =)

[VitaminCee]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Actually, I just realized what is missing with worn ikons. There should be a feat or class ability that allows your worn immanence to still work until the end of your next turn after you transcend. A limited form of Lingering Composition that doesn't consume a focus point I suppose. Higher level feats could add your body and weapon immanence, and increase to 2 rounds, to allow you to have a more stable character sheet.

Someone sees the vision!

I think the ikons definitely all have their own niches even if some share dna from others. They all atleast partially fit their main mold for example barrows edge still has a damage boosting passive, and pallisade bangles gives everyone more ac, making it a support effect.

Though i think having the 3 distinct ikon niches and forcing the player to continuously swap is a bit odd fantasy wise. It feels like you’re a mecha with different modes. I think ideally there would be an incentive to keep using all your abilities and their niches, while still allowing you the ability to just focus on one thing at a time if need be.

Something like referenced by animated paper makes sense, but im not sure a class feat would be best.

[Spidermonkeya]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Actually, I just realized what is missing with worn ikons. There should be a feat or class ability that allows your worn immanence to still work until the end of your next turn after you transcend. A limited form of Lingering Composition that doesn't consume a focus point I suppose. Higher level feats could add your body and weapon immanence, and increase to 2 rounds, to allow you to have a more stable character sheet.

The level 12 Warped by Rage essentially does this, so there is some precedent for this type of effect already.

I think that I agree i would probably prefer that for these Worn Ikons instead of their current Transcend abilities, excepting maybe the thousand-league sandals. The sandals sort of double down on the immanence effect, where the others basically do something unrelated to the Immanence.

[VitaminCee]

The level 12 Warped by Rage essentially does this, so there is some precedent for this type of effect already.

I think he’s referring to still getting the original transcendence effect, while also being able extend the passive in to other turns, not just replacing the transcendence effect it’self.

[Spidermonkeya]

I guess that is up to the balance department. The Warped by Rage gives you another effect on top of the Immanence effect, while also essentially extending the immanence effect.

[AnimatedPaper]

VitaminCee wrote:

Spidermonkeya wrote:

The level 12 Warped by Rage essentially does this, so there is some precedent for this type of effect already.

I think he’s referring to still getting the original transcendence effect, while also being able extend the passive in to other turns, not just replacing the transcendence effect it’self.

I was, yes, but warped by rage's transcend does extend that passive into the end of the next turn, in addition to adding another buff to you at the same time, so it's not the worst comparison.

[BlueTuesday33]

I want more reasons to swap into the worn ikon at early levels, but I also love domain focus spells. One thing I want to try is to have a 4th lvl feat that Transcends your worn ikon when you cast one of your domain focus spells. It would give a spot in the "Ikon Swap Loop" to fit in your domain focus spells if you really want to lean into them.

[BlueTuesday33]

BlueTuesday33 wrote:

I want more reasons to swap into the worn ikon at early levels, but I also love domain focus spells. One thing I want to try is to have a 4th lvl feat that Transcends your worn ikon when you cast one of your domain focus spells. It would give a spot in the "Ikon Swap Loop" to fit in your domain focus spells if you really want to lean into them.

Maybe this could even be apart of the 2nd level domain feat?

[AnimatedPaper]

BlueTuesday33 wrote:

BlueTuesday33 wrote:

I want more reasons to swap into the worn ikon at early levels, but I also love domain focus spells. One thing I want to try is to have a 4th lvl feat that Transcends your worn ikon when you cast one of your domain focus spells. It would give a spot in the "Ikon Swap Loop" to fit in your domain focus spells if you really want to lean into them.

Maybe this could even be apart of the 2nd level domain feat?

Not sure if I understood you correctly, but this did give me an idea.

Quote:

As part of the domain initiate feat, your worn ikon gets the following transcend:

Transcend - Claim dominion <>; Requirements: your next action is to Cast your domain focus spell granted by this feat.
You cast the spell but do not spend a focus point.

I think you suggest that the casting your domain spell becomes a new way to trigger your transcend? The problem is that it doesn't really fit how the feats or epithets are designed, and you still have the original problem of the transcend not actually being all that useful in many cases, though the epithets do tend to be nice. I think it there's some version of your suggestion that could be made to work, but I'd prefer simply replacing the transcend with a free cast of your chosen focus spell. Gives you the option of picking up a more generally useful transcend if whatever one you selected is more situational.