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I'd just like to start a thread to remind people that next year we're going into the playtesting phase of an entire new edition, which happens so infrequently that it's easy to forget what that really means.
When you're playtesting classes, they're already locked into fitting within the framework of the existing system. When you're playtesting a *system* you can ask for a whole lot more. Granted, unlike PF2 we're going into SF2 with more limitations due to compatibility, but there's a lot more on the table than you might be aware.
I see people talking about the Field Test content the same way they talk about class playtests when it's entirely possible to build a weapon type around a class instead of the other way around, for example.
I thought it might be fun to talk about things that you think are wide open for development, and build hype for people in the run up to the actual playtest. For many of us, this type of thing is the closest we'll actually get to designing a game. From my experience with PF2, seeing the way things worked out differently based on my (cumulative with others' of course) feedback gives me warm feelings to this day.
Some examples!
* Virtual Reality. I think virtual reality is a fun concept that wasn't explored enough in SF1, and wasn't done well in Shadowrun, but could be handled quite well with the excellent Paizo team revisiting. Even if it merely ended up being sort of another Plane (Techy First World?) it could open up a bunch of new stories without landing us in "Hacker does their thing while we all get lunch" mode.
* Starship Combat. Let's get creative! I can't wait to see what people come up with, and what other excellent systems we might borrow from.
* Melee Combat Balance. We're all wondering how we can make sure melee doesn't dominate again, but based on some recent discussion about special abilities granted by gear traits, we might seem some really interesting solutions.
* Magic Worldbuilding. We haven't seen magic standing on its own nearly as much as I would have liked in SF1, mostly it was used as a Deus Ex Machina of the Gaps(tm) only really filling in where people's technology imagination struggled. I want a hoity toity society of rich, old, influential pure magic users, or a John Henry story of a pure magic spaceship racing a pure tech one, or Secrets of Magic style books all about how the scholars of different fields feel about their work!
* Comm Units Not Being Just Cell Phones. How can we show that carrying around a modern day supercomputer on your lapel could be more useful than making booty calls back to the ship?
* Noncombat Challenges and Goals. We could have whole new subsystems devoted to things like space ship races, NPC favor, colonization, or anything you can imagine that's not just about beating up aliens. Stuff built into the core of the system, and not tacked on after the fact.
I misread John Henry as John Hemry, and got excited that someone else here was a Lost Fleet fan.
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So one thing that immediately occurs to me is that the balance of when you get which feats could be frobbed with pretty heavily. Like, in PF2, you always get your ancestry feats at 1/5/9/13/17, and you get your class feats at every even level (and sometimes at level 1 too) and... you get the idea. By the game's chassis, though, that's all specific to the class. It just happens to all be the same.
I think it might be interesting to have character power start out as fairly ancestry-heavy, and then become less about what you are and more about what you do as you go.
Alternately... well, part of what happens in Science Fantasy is that some ancestries are just a bigger deal than others. They're a bigger chunk of what that character can do. "We're a telepathic hivemind of tiny flying space-pirahna that wields weapons with the power of our mind" really ought to be a more important part of your character power budget than "I'm a human". At the same time, it's not that the human characters are less powerful overall than the super-weird alien characters, it's just that they get more of their power from their class.
So lean into that. Have some ancestries unlock class feats rather than ancestry feats. Have some ancestries just straight-up demand feats - kind of like class archetypes. "We're going to give you these powers up front, but we'll eat your level 1 ancestry feat and your level 2 class feat as soon as you get them." That kind of thing.
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* Hacking: Can we please get something that resembles actual hacking.
I'm thinking of a few different specific things that would fall under the broad category of hacking.
1) Exploit crafting. This is something that is done offline ahead of time. Probably as either exploration mode or downtime mode skill checks. You need to have a specific target that you are crafting an exploit for and some researched knowledge about that target. If the checks are successful, then you create an exploit for that computer specifically or all copies of it.
2) Unauthorized access. This is where a person has access to a computer - either directly from a terminal, or remotely - and tries to get the computer to do something that they aren't actually allowed to tell it to do. It will probably involve crafting an exploit first in order to make the attempt.
3) Automated behavior. Rather than gaining access to a computer generally and then deciding what to do with it, you use your exploit to cause an automated routine to run. This could be things like opening a door at a particular time, or logging and sending information to a remote location.
I think that the debate between "actual hacking" and "fictional hacking" is a very real thing here. Which should SF2 try to emulate?
I think that the debate between "actual hacking" and "fictional hacking" is a very real thing here. Which should SF2 try to emulate?
Well, "actual hacking" is, in reality, really boring. A lot of nothing going on for a very long time. Punctuated by several hundreds of milliseconds of frantic computer activity that no one actually sees. Then a billion years of people poring over log files to figure out what happened, what went wrong, and who is to blame for it.
But surely we can get something closer to real hacking than the 'typing competition' fare that we get from popular media like television shows and movies.
I work in cyber security, actual hacking is showing up to the server room with a hardhat, a clipboard and a busy demeanour, here to service the leaking coolant line
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Unlike the PF2e playtest, the core of the rules are already done and Paizo has years of experience working with them. Despite that Paizo has said this is going to be the longest and most open playtest. I think this is great it means Paizo has a lot of time to playtest the flavor/balance of the game content.
* Starship Combat. Let's get creative! I can't wait to see what people come up with, and what other excellent systems we might borrow from.
For Starship combat I've started a thread doing exactly that, talking about other game experiences.
Starship Combat, the pre-fieldtest session zero conversation .
* Noncombat Challenges and Goals. We could have whole new subsystems devoted to things like space ship races, NPC favor, colonization, or anything you can imagine that's not just about beating up aliens. Stuff built into the core of the system, and not tacked on after the fact.
After Starship Combat this is the part I'm most curious about for SF2e. Some of this will fall under the 3 modes of play used in the 2e system. Vlogging could be both a downtime and exploration activity if you want to live stream your adventures, Vlogging could be a combat activity too, perhaps getting higher views for being in combat. Surfing the infosphere could also be both downtime and exploration activity. Your party might be in exploration mode exploring a city they have just arrived to buy the Icon on the party is busy taking selfies with fans along the way.
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the Icon on the party is busy taking selfies with fans along the way.
...and now you have me imagining Icon as an archetype that runs on your popularity, where you're constantly massively overexposing your life and are tempted to get into "dramatic" situations for more views and likes, but can then leverage your fanbase in useful ways.
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I want a Starfinder handheld computer that can do 10% of what Hardison's smart phone can do.
I work in cyber security, actual hacking is showing up to the server room with a hardhat, a clipboard and a busy demeanour, here to service the leaking coolant line
or spoofing an email to someone asking them to reset their password.
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the Icon on the party is busy taking selfies with fans along the way....and now you have me imagining Icon as an archetype that runs on your popularity, where you're constantly massively overexposing your life and are tempted to get into "dramatic" situations for more views and likes, but can then leverage your fanbase in useful ways.
There are some skills that play into this to like Profession video personality. or Profession musician.
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They have actually said what they are willing to change and what they aren't willing to change in the FAQ.
The playtest is going to focus on what we see as being key components to Starfinder. Since we’re going to be fully compatible with Pathfinder Second Edition, the base game engine is tried and tested. This leaves us free to focus on a few critical elements: classes, an item level-based equipment system, new core skills, updated relevant rules across the game, and a general testing of the gameplay experience. All of this, along with the usual stable of new ancestries, feats, spells, and more!
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I think that the debate between "actual hacking" and "fictional hacking" is a very real thing here. Which should SF2 try to emulate?
The kind where a droid rolls up and jams a probe into an unlabeled socket and instantly gains control of every waste-disposal system on the station.
Hey, if the GM wants to do deus ex machina for plot reasons, they shouldn't let the rules or game balance stop them.
But that doesn't mean that the game rules couldn't handle things more believably.
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Hey, if the GM wants to do deus ex machina for plot reasons, they shouldn't let the rules or game balance stop them.
But that doesn't mean that the game rules couldn't handle things more believably.
No, but sometimes the story calls for you to get the data module while you're being shot at, and if that takes 7 hours hacking becomes like...one of the shadow run editions where the hacker and dm are doing something for an hour and then the hacker is out for 3 hours while the party shoots things.
Also, who's to say whats realistic for computers a thousandish years ahead of us?
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Hey, if the GM wants to do deus ex machina for plot reasons, they shouldn't let the rules or game balance stop them.
Who said the above scenario is a deus ex machina? Who says it doesn't have to require a special ability, die roll and/or resource expenditure? Who said gaining control over the garbage system is necessarily the solution to the problem, or even the desired outcome?
A game mechanic doesn't need to be realistic to be fun or interesting.
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And why shouldn't such things be something available to characters who take skill feats for it rather than the general expected behavior of everyone who is trained in computers?
Exactly how do businesses, trash facilities, government agencies, and BBEG lairs protect their computer systems from being hacked by randoms walking down the street if those randoms are able to hack computer systems in seconds on a whim?
Also, this thread is about spitballing ideas. Let's all try not to be dismissive and discouraging just because you don't like a particular idea.