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Indeed. Go play Age of Ashes exactly as written and then tell us that we need harder boss fights.
TBH, AoA is probably the first thing I'd point to if I was the OP. The bosses in that campaign suck and perfectly illustrate why numbers-based tuning is bad and why asymmetrical design and alternative boss mechanics could be interesting.
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I think the reason why a book of bosses doesn't really exist is that a great boss fight is the union of three-four things:
a) interesting primary villain mechanics
b) interesting battlefield (hazards, minions, terrain features, exploitable terrain)
c) emotional motivation/history for the fight
d) (optional) fight evolution (multiple "phases" or cameos from allied NPCs, or ...)
If you "just" do a book of (a) the the fights will tend to fall flat. If you try to include all of a-d for each "boos" in a book, it becomes much harder to fit an arbitrary selection into an existing campaign.
Look at Lost Omen: Monsters of Myth, that's almost a Boss monster book, and is basically (a) + lore. It still leaves most of the work to the GM craft b-d to make the boss work for the campaign though. And while I enjoy the book, it's not one that I see people talking about a lot, so empirically it feels like it's not the most popular format.
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I think one reason you don't want to devote a lot of special attention to "bosses" is that the identity of "the boss" is going to change a lot as you go from level to level. Like a Frost Giant is a solid boss monster for level 6 characters, but it's a speed bump for level 11 characters.
So it's a reasonable question why the Giant we fought at level 6 could do things that the Giant we're fighting at level 11 cannot, since one would assume the opposite.
The thing is, I feel like paizo have already put out creatures with a bunch of interesting abilities and the level scaljnf just helps make them a threat as a single boss while also letting the enemies work when players reach higher levels.
But there is always the option of using adjustment templates like the undead or cryptid ones
https://pf2easy.com/index.php?id=21982&name=CRYPTID_ADJUSTMENTS
A lot of what makes a boss fight epic is presentation, tension and the stage it is presented on. Not so much a bunch of extra unique abilities beyond the handful each creature already has.
5e benefited from legendary actions and lair actions because the monsters generally had nothing outside of that and couldn't last a round in many cases... heck earlier this year I had a party defeat a cr13 white dragon as a level 7 party, in two rounds... and it had assistance from its allies (a caster and a bunch of minions).
Let's compare the 5e dragon to the pf2e dragon:
5e
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/16773-adult-white-dragon
Pf2e
https://pf2easy.com/index.php?id=4113&name=adult_white_dragon
I find it hard to believe someone can look at the PF2e white dragon and not find that infinitely more interesting than the 5e dragon in a lair with legendary actions. Or think it needs more evocative actions in general.
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How much would a book help?
I don't think Legendary Actions or Lair actions are all that interesting and certainly aren't hard to make in PF2.
PF2 is set up so you can free form a boss encounter making it up as you see fit. The mechanics are so easy to create. Does someone need a book for this?
I would not buy or use such a book myself. It's unnecessary.
You learn the mechanics of PF2. Run some bosses. Then you see the mechanics and action routines are very naturalistic and open to whatever crazy thing you feel like coming up with.
If you want tentacle boss to grab a huge number or characters and toss them around, easy to make that happen with the action mechanics.
If you want dragon guy's lair to be like a creature, easy to create those mechanics and give it an action routine.
The monster creation in PF2 has balanced, hard-coded math with an easy to understand action system that uses naturalistic language for descriptions you can easily turn into just about anything you want or need.
Not sure what a boss book would do. Maybe a few articles or blog posts might help some less experienced DMs. For a lot of DMs that like to write their own material, the PF2 rules for character creation and development are very flexible and easy to use.
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What you're suggesting was useful/necessary in PF1 because PCs could hit way harder than their level would suggest. The math of NPCs, unless you custom built them, was designed for unoptimized parties. My personal experience was that my players would often have the power level of +2/3 higher than the game would expect. But it was because the game was just poorly balanced with player options.I would not say that PF1 was poorly balanced, it was just balanced assuming that the players were not build or teamwork optimizers. As opposed to PF2 were the game assumes that your are playing an optimized character with optimal teamwork. The overall result is that PF1 characters could punch above the balance point creating a feeling of "Yeah we are awesome!". While PF2 characters often punch below tbe balamce point creating a feeling of "That was rough, glad we made it".
Personally, I perfer the PF1 baseline because you can always make fights harder by adding more enemies or playing smarter. But with PF2 you have to actively run enemies worse to make fights easier.
PF1 was not balanced past maybe the early levels.
I have serious doubts you played much PF1 myself, at least past the low levels. I made plenty of characters that destroyed PF1, turned it into a cartoon using the rules. PF1 balance was nonexistent at the higher levels.
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As opposed to PF2 were the game assumes that your are playing an optimized character with optimal teamwork.
It really isn't, even the most punishing APs tend to be quite doable with standard characters and suboptimal teamwork... some teamwork is required to avoid deaths ofc, but nothing amazing.
In my experience the people who had the most trouble were coming from a PF1e or 5e background and focusing more on their specialist build rather than dynamic gameplay.
Rather than players having a suboptimal build.
Heck I ran 3 players through the first book of extinction curse, a bard, druid and oracle. They had free archetype but were restricted to their circus speciality, they were very roleplay focused... and still did fine even with the encounters. There was some teamwork involved ofc, but given that it was one of the three imbalanced early APs and they were 3 casters...
For my AoA campaign I actively made sure to run teaching combats so players knew how mechanics worked and would take time to highlight different things players could do diagetically so people saw their characters as toolboxes. The only player in that campaign who had consistent combat issues was the one who had planned their character out to 20 from the start.
Personally, I perfer the PF1 baseline because you can always make fights harder by adding more enemies or playing smarter. But with PF2 you have to actively run enemies worse to make fights easier.
You could remove enemies or slap a weak template on something. Also I am not sure how simply using worse abilities or wasting actions is a more difficult task for a GM than adding enemies or playing even smarter.
In my experience of running 3.x systems if there weren't copious houserules/restrictions and the GM wasn't actively building to counter the players, optimised characters would destroy encounters and the CR guidelines would simply stop working at or soon after level 7. (And if you are optimising, and the GM is actively countering... kinda defeats the purpose and just keeps both you and the GM bored and limited in what combats/scenarions look like)
Maybe it is easier if you don't have a group that optimises, but I found people who didn't would rather play a less crunchy character build focused system than PF1e or worse, 3.5e.
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Truly wish that this game had solo/boss templates, minion templates, and enemy categories. Other games like 13th Age, Lancer, Icon, and Gubat Banwa all have them and they're incredibly handy in a game built around you having interesting, meaningful combats.
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the Troll that threw your fighter 20 yards into a mountain wall. Then when we crit it, it sprayed acid for blood all over your party. Then it dove down into the swamp and just bust out under our healer. But then you all pulled thru in the end.
So the Troll that got a free action triggered in a crit reminiscent of whirling throw, an aoe reaction Attack upon receiving dlashing or Piercing damage and 2 Action Activity which lets it burrow/swim for it's movement Speed and make a trip check against all enemies adjecent to the point it's emerging? Good idea
*Looks at own Post*Hey, I just build it, No special Rules Supplement required :P
How much would a book help?
I don't think Legendary Actions or Lair actions are all that interesting and certainly aren't hard to make in PF2.
I think that many generally are hung up on legendary actions as the solution in this thread. Matt Coleville book goes beyond that, he realizes this is a start but he improves on the concept. But why stop even there :) Legendary action was step in the right direction at least for DnD. Lair actions is another great thematic mechanic that is built into the bosses of DnD but attached to en environment instead of the boss itself. The environments can have flavorful mechanics on top of that there are numerous ways of designing a boss encounter.
I think of it as when you are playing a video game like WOW. The minor bosses are just mobs with more hit points and abilities while the big bads have a lot more going on. It can be adds, it can be move out of the incoming aoe, share the damage mechanics. It an be a sort of puzzle or minigame that's needs to be solved/won during the fight to be able to injure the boss. Maybe you have to hinder him from moving to a healing pad. It can be a moving and ever changing environment. These mechanics are not necessarily creature abilities even if that is a part of it. But sprinkle that with a few super thematic cool villan moves that perfectly describes the boss and changes or interacts with the battlefield. And you have a boss fight.
Designing a move is not hard. But designing a great bossfight IS hard. That's why you don't see much of them in any written material.
PF2 is a very game driven kind of TRPG, and I'm just surprised that it does not explore game mechanics more when it comes to encounter design and especially boss fights.
So...in the risk of sounding condescending (not my Intention, just to have that said)
You want a book to help uninspired and lazy gms?
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So...in the risk of sounding condescending (not my Intention, just to have that said)
You want a book to help uninspired and lazy gms?
Unambiguously yes. I don't see any value in disregarding other people's time/creativity by holding good play experience over their head because they didn't simply have the ability to come up with it on their own. I don't see the value in secreting cool boss ideas away from publication like they were some manner of arcane formula to be coveted by other wizards but never possessed.
Is it not the same for playing an Adventure Path? Why should we publish adventures for those GMs who are too lazy to write their own in whatever free time they might have?
I don't feel like withholding enjoyment from others simply because I deem their abilities lesser than my own.
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What you're suggesting was useful/necessary in PF1 because PCs could hit way harder than their level would suggest. The math of NPCs, unless you custom built them, was designed for unoptimized parties. My personal experience was that my players would often have the power level of +2/3 higher than the game would expect. But it was because the game was just poorly balanced with player options.I would not say that PF1 was poorly balanced, it was just balanced assuming that the players were not build or teamwork optimizers. As opposed to PF2 were the game assumes that your are playing an optimized character with optimal teamwork. The overall result is that PF1 characters could punch above the balance point creating a feeling of "Yeah we are awesome!". While PF2 characters often punch below tbe balamce point creating a feeling of "That was rough, glad we made it".
Personally, I perfer the PF1 baseline because you can always make fights harder by adding more enemies or playing smarter. But with PF2 you have to actively run enemies worse to make fights easier.
PF1 balance fell apart the moment one of your players was running a Wizard who thought that burning hands is a powerful spell and wasn't interested in boosting their Int above 18 because "that's video gamey and I'm here not to play a video game" and then took two levels of Rogue because that represented a side trek in their career as a magical spelunker, while another was running a Vital Strike chain Cave Druid.
The solutions to make fights harder also fell apart, because making the fight challenging for the former made it still trivial for the latter, and making it hard for the latter meant it was impossibly tough for the former.
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I think of it as when you are playing a video game like WOW. The minor bosses are just mobs with more hit points and abilities while the big bads have a lot more going on. It can be adds, it can be move out of the incoming aoe, share the damage mechanics. It an be a sort of puzzle or minigame that's needs to be solved/won during the fight to be able to injure the boss. Maybe you have to hinder him from moving to a healing pad. It can be a moving and ever changing environment. These mechanics are not necessarily creature abilities even if that is a part of it. But sprinkle that with a few super thematic cool villan moves that perfectly describes the boss and changes or interacts with the battlefield. And you have a boss fight.
What is possible in WoW is not really possible in TTRPGs.
First, in WoW, you can try multiple times. So if you fail to understand/disable the boss mechanics the first time you can do it again. In PF2, you have only one chance to achieve it. And considering how quick fights are, you roughly have a single round to understand and analyze the mechanics of the fight before getting wrecked up. So unless the GM starts explaining the enemy abilities right away, it means that you'll need quite simple mechanics for your fight.
Second, in WoW, you can expect some abilities in the party. Clearly not in PF2. So if someone designs a fight that needs a very specific way of being handled, you have parties who will just be unable to handle it and for others it will be a cakewalk.
The only way to design such fights is to tailor them to your table. And there's no book that can create fights tailored to your table.
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Why can't a book teach you how to analyze your table and tailor fights to them?
I don't think it's what KingDingaling is expecting, from their example.
I also think it's more suited to an Internet guide than an actual book.
Why can't a book teach you how to analyze your table and tailor fights to them?
I think a book like this could exist, but it would have a hard time justifying its existence beyond what it already has in the Gamemastery Guide. Like, fantastic encounter design exactly in the vein of what the OP wants exists already. I can think of plenty of examples off-hand, but we're treading into spoiler territory.
But I could also see groups and GMs who aren't connecting with PF2's mechanics not having the same experience despite it being laid out for them. They rush across the room, slamming into hazards while th GM has Hallod just drop his crossbow and close in with basic kukri Strikes. Not exactly fun and people walk away with the idea that "despite doing everything correctly, they still lost to an unwinnable encounter."
Oh, and another great "boss battle!"
I've had PFS games with dramatic boss battles, all of which are handled in the system without needing any extra work on the part of the GM.
What I'm saying is, all of this stuff exists already. What a book would bring to the table is something that Paizo has already published: APs and adventures have dynamic and exciting "boss battles." There are already guidlelines and helpful rules of thumb for GM's to read up on in the Gamemastery Guide. I'm not sure what a book could or would bring to the table that doesn't already exist.
That's entirely discounting that from the business-side of things, people looking for something like that would more likely just buy an adventure or a new Bestiary.
I think of it as when you are playing a video game like WOW. The minor bosses are just mobs with more hit points and abilities while the big bads have a lot more going on. It can be adds, it can be move out of the incoming aoe, share the damage mechanics. It an be a sort of puzzle or minigame that's needs to be solved/won during the fight to be able to injure the boss. Maybe you have to hinder him from moving to a healing pad. It can be a moving and ever changing environment. These mechanics are not necessarily creature abilities even if that is a part of it. But sprinkle that with a few super thematic cool villan moves that perfectly describes the boss and changes or interacts with the battlefield. And you have a boss fight.What is possible in WoW is not really possible in TTRPGs.
You're not listening, I didn't say I want it play like WOW I want it to feel like WOW. And there are techniques that work for trpg that give that feeling and tons of ways to develop systems around it.
Don't make abilities a mechanics a MUST to groc to win like WOW, but make them thematic. Foreshadow abilities and mechanics in fights with minions in previous fights. Don't have 3-5 phases, have 2, one can trigger when the boss i bloodied for instance.
Mechanics and boss abilities that facilitate player choice and agency.
Like a lair ability each round a dark circle appears around a ranged character in a X" radius, you will take 10d6 damage at the beginning on next round if your are still in the circle" Now you have a choice as ranged. Take damage but also use all your 3 action for damage or move and do the less but safe. Or maybe the damage will be shared among the creatures in the circle so now your party can help out by moving in. Add to that the crippling abilities of the boss/mobs that will immobilize or slow you. Now you have fun puzzle to solve while you try to damage the boss.
And I want these kind of things to be done by professional game designers, that will take like the example above and do it better. I want a book, I want it to be in the adventures I buy already :D I can't believe I have to sell this!
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All of these do exist! They are hazards, they are different abilities, they are environmental effects and - importantly - they are used in actual adventures!
EDIT: Even "two-phase boss" has been done (quite well) in
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OP, you sound like you want to sell the idea of your book and are extremely defensive against anyone who says otherwise. Actually, it sounds like you wrote such a book and are now trying to sell it even though people say they are not interested.
And you have MANY experts on the PF2 rules saying all the same thing here, even though they often sit on opposite sides of rules debates.
You also sound like you do not have much experience playing PF2 BTW.
My take : no need for such a book. It's already there in the core system and the bestiaries, all things that anyone can access for free on Archive of Nethys.
So, no. Not interested.
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I can't believe I have to sell this!
Well, you'll have to sell harder.
Your mechanics seem to remove player agency as they force some specific kind of actions (which is the case in WoW actually). Also, having multiple fights revolving around the same mechanic because it needs to be foreshadowed before the boss seems repetitive. And your dark circle can just be done with a spell or an environmental effect. It is already in the game.Maybe the book exists in D&D5 because a lot of players are complaining about fights being too easy and repetitive. But that's not a complaint I've seen for PF2. So maybe this book doesn't exist because no one would need it.
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I think of it as when you are playing a video game like WOW. The minor bosses are just mobs with more hit points and abilities while the big bads have a lot more going on. It can be adds, it can be move out of the incoming aoe, share the damage mechanics. It an be a sort of puzzle or minigame that's needs to be solved/won during the fight to be able to injure the boss. Maybe you have to hinder him from moving to a healing pad. It can be a moving and ever changing environment. These mechanics are not necessarily creature abilities even if that is a part of it. But sprinkle that with a few super thematic cool villan moves that perfectly describes the boss and changes or interacts with the battlefield. And you have a boss fight.What is possible in WoW is not really possible in TTRPGs.
You're not listening, I didn't say I want it play like WOW I want it to feel like WOW. And there are techniques that work for trpg that give that feeling and tons of ways to develop systems around it.
Don't make abilities a mechanics a MUST to groc to win like WOW, but make them thematic. Foreshadow abilities and mechanics in fights with minions in previous fights. Don't have 3-5 phases, have 2, one can trigger when the boss i bloodied for instance.
Mechanics and boss abilities that facilitate player choice and agency.
Like a lair ability each round a dark circle appears around a ranged character in a X" radius, you will take 10d6 damage at the beginning on next round if your are still in the circle" Now you have a choice as ranged. Take damage but also use all your 3 action for damage or move and do the less but safe. Or maybe the damage will be shared among the creatures in the circle so now your party can help out by moving in. Add to that the crippling abilities of the boss/mobs that will immobilize or slow you. Now you have fun puzzle to solve while you try to damage the boss.
And I want these kind of things to be done by professional game...
Look at a creature like the Pit Fiend. That is an example of cool PF2 design.
Commander's Aura
Devil Shaping
Fast Swoop
Masterful Quickened Casting
Just a brutal monster you can modify even further if you so wish to create individual pit fiends.
PF2 monster design is really open and fun. You should mess around with it. You can probably make a Wow Boss with PF2 monster design better than any D20 game system made before.
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Yeah, all the things I've seen asked are either:
1. in the bestiaries, with monsters that have cool abilities
2. in pre-written adventures (APs or PFS)
3. in the GMG (how to customize creatures)
You will need all three, though. If you have a homebrew campaign and you only look at the bestiary, then it is a valid criticism that the same creature can't feel both like a boss and later like a minion, if the only thing that changes is the level of the party. If you then look at the GMG, you might feel a bit lost if you don't look at examples from existing adventures. If you do have a pre-written adventure, you will still want to customize the experience to your players, for which the bestiaries or GMG can help.
Luckily, all of this is available for free on AoN.
As a practical example, the way I do it is to take a monster from a certain level, think about what would make it cooler (let's say a petrifying gaze, for example because I saw it in a pre-written adventure), then look at higher-level monsters that have such an ability (basilisk/medusa), then add the ability to the boss using the rules in the GMG. It might actually need lower AC or hp to compensate for the ability, but as OP says this makes the boss more interesting. If I wanted the monster to have more actions, I would look at creatures with reactions for inspiration, or something that triggers on a crit or on death. Plenty of examples in the bestiaries.
One thing that I feel like is missing is clear rules for how to design troops, because they sort of have multiple stages. But you can look at the existing ones and figure it out quickly. Another thing is multi-stage boss fights in general, or bosses with multiple spots in the initiative order. Again, there are some examples, but clear rules of thumb would help.
All of these do exist! They are hazards, they are different abilities, they are environmental effects and - importantly - they are used in actual adventures!
Hey maybe there is, I might just have read the wrong ones.
I mean take Kingmaker for instance thats a 600+ page adventure path that end with the boss that's bacily a caster with a teleport ability. No cool map of a boss room or lair. The encounter has no mechanism. It up to the GM to make this one memorable. Not even a strategy/tactics on how she plays section. I mean it could be but I don't see the mechanisms for it to be a great epic fight. Maybe I am reading it wrong. I would rather have 400 pages and a epic end.
Do you have a better example from any other path / encounter that you are thinking of?
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Hey maybe there is, I might just have read the wrong ones.
I mean take Kingmaker for instance thats a 600+ page adventure path that end with the boss that's bacily a caster with a teleport ability. No cool map of a boss room or lair. The encounter has no mechanism. It up to the GM to make this one memorable. I mean it could be but I don't see the mechanisms for it to be a great epic fight. Maybe I am reading it wrong. I would rather have 400 pages and a epic end.
Do you have a better example from any other path / encounter that you are thinking of?
I can't speak of this encounter because I haven't got Kingmaker, but you clearly don't need specific mechanisms to make a memorable boss fight.
In my opinion, you lack experience with PF2. Play it and you'll see it just works.
Look at a creature like the Pit Fiend. That is an example of cool PF2 design.
Commander's Aura
Devil Shaping
Fast Swoop
Masterful Quickened CastingJust a brutal monster you can modify even further if you so wish to create individual pit fiends.
PF2 monster design is really open and fun. You should mess around with it. You can probably make a Wow Boss with PF2 monster design better than any D20 game system made before.
I think so to. And I agree. Creatures in PF2 and a big step up from DnD and I do enjoy messing around with them. I just think that we could do even more when it comes to boss encounters to make them work with any number of mobs and still be fun engaging, creating player choice not just hard encounters.
I can't speak of this encounter because I haven't got Kingmaker, but you clearly don't need specific mechanisms to make a memorable boss fight.
In my opinion, you lack experience with PF2. Play it and you'll see it just works.
You need no mechanism to make it memorable (just a great personality) but fun mechanisms makes the game part or rpg's more fun and can facilitate excitement, and cool evocative scenes and engagement. Both in description but also in mechanism.
Do we need rules for this... maybe not. Maybe you right and I lack experience with the pf2 system. Maybe i'm just after very well designed boss fights in written adventure paths. Not seeing it or looking in the wrong place.
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Adding more abilities is always good.
Don't make abilities a mechanics a MUST to groc to win like WOW, but make them thematic. Foreshadow abilities and mechanics in fights with minions in previous fights. Don't have 3-5 phases, have 2, one can trigger when the boss i bloodied for instance.
Mechanics and boss abilities that facilitate player choice and agency.
Like a lair ability each round a dark circle appears around a ranged character in a X" radius, you will take 10d6 damage at the beginning on next round if your are still in the circle" Now you have a choice as ranged. Take damage but also use all your 3 action for damage or move and do the less but safe. Or maybe the damage will be shared among the creatures in the circle so now your party can help out by moving in. Add to that the crippling abilities of the boss/mobs that will immobilize or slow you. Now you have fun puzzle to solve while you try to damage the boss.
This is not thematic, in videogame having these explicit visual mechanics shown so you can learn and train against them make sense so you can react. These would be DOA in a TTRPG. Especially for "soaks" which would be a player ability, not an effect of the boss ability that the players would somehow know about, and no foreshadowing with minions copying those abilities is not a good learner, moreso since there's no guarantee players would pick up on them, since they're completely different mediums.
A visual aid doesn’t help much in a non-visual medium.
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If I'd like to play a MMORPG boss battle I'd just play a MMORPG.
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Indeed. Go play Age of Ashes exactly as written and then tell us that we need harder boss fights.TBH, AoA is probably the first thing I'd point to if I was the OP. The bosses in that campaign suck and perfectly illustrate why numbers-based tuning is bad and why asymmetrical design and alternative boss mechanics could be interesting.
AoA is, however, a great example of why we don't need to have harder boss fights. Why we don't need bosses to have even more boosted resistances or extra bonus actions to wreck the party with. That is the wrong direction to go in.
More engaging and interesting boss fights, yes. Harder, no.
So...in the risk of sounding condescending (not my Intention, just to have that said)
You want a book to help uninspired and lazy gms?
I love this stuff I would be happy reading a book about super well designed boss encounters even if they did not include extra mechanics that's not in the game. Just a explanation of the choices that lead to the design or a encounter. I love game design and love reading about it to use in my game or just being inspired by it. Especially from professionals.
Hell I even backed Matt Colville's book about the subject just to be inspired even if I don't play 5e.
Why do ppl buy books about magic items, have the no imagination? because it's fun and easy and they don't have weeks of time designing everything themselves. Also some ppl just dont like hoseruling or GM created stuff, less so in a game like PF were everything else is so tightly defined.
Also some ppl just dont like hoseruling or GM created stuff, less so in a game like PF were everything else is so tightly defined.
Have you read the Gamemastery Guide?
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OP, you sound like you want to sell the idea of your book and are extremely defensive against anyone who says otherwise. Actually, it sounds like you wrote such a book and are now trying to sell it even though people say they are not interested.
And you have MANY experts on the PF2 rules saying all the same thing here, even though they often sit on opposite sides of rules debates.
You also sound like you do not have much experience playing PF2 BTW.
My take : no need for such a book. It's already there in the core system and the bestiaries, all things that anyone can access for free on Archive of Nethys.
So, no. Not interested.
I'm not singling you out, but this reply is a good example of a miscommunication.
On the one hand you have someone who wants a toolkit for designing nicer boss encounters.
On the other hand, you have people telling you it already exists.
But if you look in the CRB or GMG, is there actually a chapter explaining to new GMs how to build boss encounters, and how that's different from other encounters? Nope. If you look at the CRB encounter building section it really doesn't go further than "pick your difficulty and spend that XP budget".
Some adventures have awesome boss fights with all the things we're saying work well for that. But there are also a lot of boss fights that are just a level +3 or level +4 enemy in a square room that's just going to crit you a lot. The monster might have cool alternative abilities but just leaning on its base attacks is working so well because of the level difference.
Even for official APs, there's a lot of those. And yeah, as a GM of course you can "make it your own" and adapt. But how often does the AP present you with a lame fight and then explain to new GMs how to un-lame it? I think the writers who would know how to write a good un-lame sidebar, don't write so many lame bosses.
And even though the game can easily support cool boss fights with some monsters that are already interesting by design, wouldn't it be nice to have a large set of convenient tools to make any creature more of an interesting boss?
Like, bosses are often level +3 or +4 which is aggravating because many of your spells just bounce off and you have to slog through as a martial with most attacks missing. Just eventually, you wear them down.
What if instead you took a level +2 enemy, and gave them some extra abilities but NOT extra numbers? Abilities to let them balance out the PCs' action economy. So the wizard's spells hit a bit more often because it's only a level +2 enemy. And they don't crit as often. But maybe they get a free action once per round at the start of someone else's turn. So they're harder to catch in a flank sandwich or they could threaten people more with AoOs. All in all, the boss would probably be as difficult as a level +3 enemy, but in a more dynamic and interesting way.
So what I think would be nice to have, is a book like this:
* Explains to new GMs how to design cool boss encounters
* Has a big toolbox of boss abilities, interesting environment effects, hazards and so on that you can use to have more interesting and varied bosses
I don't think it'd be a big market success because it'd be mainly for GMs. But for the ones that get it, I think it'd be pretty nice to have.
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Also some ppl just dont like hoseruling or GM created stuff, less so in a game like PF were everything else is so tightly defined.Have you read the Gamemastery Guide?
I was just looking through it for an explanation on how to make boss fights with all the cool ideas people are mentioning. You know, if you're starting this game as a new GM, the GMG is where you go to learn right?
But is there actually a chapter with the sort of ideas people are mentioning here? Because I think what's actually in the GMG doesn't really go all that far.
Adding more abilities is always good.
This is not thematic, in videogame having these explicit visual mechanics shown so you can learn and train against them make sense so you can react. These would be DOA in a TTRPG. Especially for "soaks" which would be a player ability, not an effect of the boss ability that the players would somehow know about, and no foreshadowing with minions copying those abilities is not a good learner, moreso since there's no guarantee players would pick up on them, since they're completely different mediums.
A visual aid doesn’t help much in a non-visual medium.
1. Its thematic if it fits the boss.
2. Explicit visual mechanics - don't really know what you mean, pathfinder is played on a grid with aoe effect clearly defined. just draw a circle on the grid or use a template. You can even do it without a grid just explain the circle round the character. Would work like anything else.3. Yeah you might be right with more complex mechanics but they could also be designed in a way that they don't have to understand them to win but it's just easier if they do. They are there to be discovered or maybe player will find out giving a biggers sense of reward when they do. Maybe a recall knowledge will give them clues about the mechanics.
OP, you sound like you want to sell the idea of your book and are extremely defensive against anyone who says otherwise. Actually, it sounds like you wrote such a book and are now trying to sell it even though people say they are not interested.
And you have MANY experts on the PF2 rules saying all the same thing here, even though they often sit on opposite sides of rules debates.
You also sound like you do not have much experience playing PF2 BTW.
My take : no need for such a book. It's already there in the core system and the bestiaries, all things that anyone can access for free on Archive of Nethys.
So, no. Not interested.
I'm not singling you out, but this reply is a good example of a miscommunication.
On the one hand you have someone who wants a toolkit for designing nicer boss encounters.
On the other hand, you have people telling you it already exists.
But if you look in the CRB or GMG, is there actually a chapter explaining to new GMs how to build boss encounters, and how that's different from other encounters? Nope. If you look at the CRB encounter building section it really doesn't go further than "pick your difficulty and spend that XP budget".
Some adventures have awesome boss fights with all the things we're saying work well for that. But there are also a lot of boss fights that are just a level +3 or level +4 enemy in a square room that's just going to crit you a lot. The monster might have cool alternative abilities but just leaning on its base attacks is working so well because of the level difference.
Even for official APs, there's a lot of those. And yeah, as a GM of course you can "make it your own" and adapt. But how often does the AP present you with a lame fight and then explain to new GMs how to un-lame it? I think the writers who would know how to write a good un-lame sidebar, don't write so many lame bosses.
And even though the game can easily support cool boss fights with some monsters that are already...
You said it better than I can.
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1) it’s not thematic because it doesn’t fit/not fit, cause it’s a mechanic, not an ability. A fire breath is thematic for a creature. Throwing out circles people have to individually stand in so the group doesn’t wipe is not thematic, it’s a mechanic.
2) AOE would not be the issue, soaks would. Explain how the GM is supposed to showcase that that’s separate from a normal AOE and players are supposed to react without Metagaming.
3) Recall Knowledge doesn’t give you Metagame knowledge that exist separate from the setting. In WoW how do you practice for a fight? You read the dungeon guide listing all the abilities, you watch videos, and practice by wiping repeatedly till you have to down. That mindset does not work for a TTRPG.
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All of these do exist! They are hazards, they are different abilities, they are environmental effects and - importantly - they are used in actual adventures!Hey maybe there is, I might just have read the wrong ones.
I mean take Kingmaker for instance thats a 600+ page adventure path that end with the boss that's bacily a caster with a teleport ability. No cool map of a boss room or lair. The encounter has no mechanism. It up to the GM to make this one memorable. Not even a strategy/tactics on how she plays section. I mean it could be but I don't see the mechanisms for it to be a great epic fight. Maybe I am reading it wrong. I would rather have 400 pages and a epic end.
Do you have a better example from any other path / encounter that you are thinking of?
My honest opinion is that a converted PF1 AP is a very bad example of good encounter design within the PF2 system. I will also say that "Delve-style" of writing hasn't been picked up for reason of page space (if I recall James Jacobs' post about it). That is to say, writing out step by step how encounters are run allowed for GMs to create these sorts of encounters you're talking about but then made new problems. If I recall, it was said that it felt like it was forcing GMs into playing certain ways and taking away their creativity. It also ate a ton of page space that was making it unfeasible to keep going.
I have run... Fall of Plaguestone, The Slithering, Age of Ashes through to book 4, Agents of Edgewatch to book 3, Strength of Thousands so far to book 2, Fist of the Ruby Phoenix (just book 1 so far), Kingmaker (remaster) book 1, most of Season 3 of PFS, half of the Dark Archive adventures, and a handful of homebrewed adventures. As well, I write and convert adventures. I would be happy to point you towards great examples of encounter design in literally any of these.
EDIT: The Lantern King?! You are having trouble seeing how this is a dynamic encounter? It even includes how to run it!
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Also some ppl just dont like hoseruling or GM created stuff, less so in a game like PF were everything else is so tightly defined.Have you read the Gamemastery Guide?I was just looking through it for an explanation on how to make boss fights with all the cool ideas people are mentioning. You know, if you're starting this game as a new GM, the GMG is where you go to learn right?
But is there actually a chapter with the sort of ideas people are mentioning here? Because I think what's actually in the GMG doesn't really go all that far.
I would right away point you towards Encounter Design which restates a lot of what has been said throughout this thread.
I would right away point you towards Encounter Design which restates a lot of what has been said throughout this thread.Also some ppl just dont like hoseruling or GM created stuff, less so in a game like PF were everything else is so tightly defined.Have you read the Gamemastery Guide?I was just looking through it for an explanation on how to make boss fights with all the cool ideas people are mentioning. You know, if you're starting this game as a new GM, the GMG is where you go to learn right?
But is there actually a chapter with the sort of ideas people are mentioning here? Because I think what's actually in the GMG doesn't really go all that far.
I would add the Building Creatures chapter, especially the Design Abilities section I linked to earlier.
There is also the Building Hazards section that is similar.
You can also run a 'boss "battle"' without combat using a social or skill encounter using the Victory Point system in case you want to really change things up.
If you, as a GM, know what you want - the tools for building it already exist. The problem is if the GM doesn't know what they want - they just know that their boss battles are falling flat and don't know how to fix it.
Publishing a book that gives examples of how to un-lame a boss fight is probably not in the cards. Someone upthread mentioned doing that as a fan-made online guide, and I also think that would work a lot better.
Alright boys n girls, I've think I got what I asked for. If I'm to believe you only a small minority would like a book like that would explain analyze or expand to on the concepts of bossfight and boss encounters. And that you are satisfied what you get from current APs and the built in mechanics of the game.
Which would answer my original question of why this concept is not further explored.
Thank you for your input & tips on links and adventures and advice your experience with pf2 is showing.
Sorry if im pig headed and hard to convince, that's just the way I am when I'm passionate about something :)
/later
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Kind of a pretty awful way to advertise a product on a competitor's website. For a product that we don't want or need.
removed any reference to "competing" 3rd party publishers or direct competitors in my last post. Didn't know we could not talk about them directly.