Starfinder Archetypes!

[Romão98]

It would be nice if instead of Themes being converted into Backgrounds (nothing has been confirmed), they were transformed into Archetypes. I can imagine an Ace Pilot Archetype or Xenoseeker Archetype! Hahaha I can already see the Free Archetype rule being almost mandatory at all the tables!

[IvoMG]

I think that you can have both. Some Themes would be great as Backgrounds while others as Archetypes.
The problem in doing this is the amount of work that would require to make a lot of feats for those new archetypes.

[Romão98]

IvoMG wrote:

I think that you can have both. Some Themes would be great as Backgrounds while others as Archetypes.

The problem in doing this is the amount of work that would require to make a lot of feats for those new archetypes.

Starfinder Player Core 2 (2026) =D

[Lightning Raven]

Starship-related themes/archetypes should be tied to a character progression that happens besides normal class progression, so that every type of character can perform their roles properly in any kind of starship combat they come up with in SF2e.

This will help to avoid the current situation of some classes being awkward in that subsystem, while others perform well. Also, one of the worst aspects, is having to dedicate precious combat/roleplay resources in order to not be dead weight.

The archetype changes is one of the aspects I'm looking forward the most in SF2e, since it's one of the worst systems of SF1e while it's an amazing system in PF2e. The difference is staggering and I hope that SF2e manages to reach the same level of customization, flavor and mechanical impact of PF2e. Which will be further improved by PF2e's Free Archetype Rules.

[Driftbourne]

Lightning Raven wrote:

Starship-related themes/archetypes should be tied to a character progression that happens besides normal class progression, so that every type of character can perform their roles properly in any kind of starship combat they come up with in SF2e.

This will help to avoid the current situation of some classes being awkward in that subsystem, while others perform well. Also, one of the worst aspects, is having to dedicate precious combat/roleplay resources in order to not be dead weight.

The archetype changes is one of the aspects I'm looking forward the most in SF2e, since it's one of the worst systems of SF1e while it's an amazing system in PF2e. The difference is staggering and I hope that SF2e manages to reach the same level of customization, flavor and mechanical impact of PF2e. Which will be further improved by PF2e's Free Archetype Rules.

I think that Starship-related archetypes should be free archetypes with automatic or free costing progression so they don't get in the way of your class progression. With a non-free version available for Pathfinder characters.

[Driftbourne]

IvoMG wrote:

I think that you can have both. Some Themes would be great as Backgrounds while others as Archetypes.

The problem in doing this is the amount of work that would require to make a lot of feats for those new archetypes.

I agree and would add that some themes could even be both backgrounds and Archetypes. Backgrounds would give you the 1st level abilities of a theme and an archetype gives you the upgrade abilities at higher levels that a theme would.

[Perpdepog]

I really like that idea of ship-based archetypes being bolted on to your character without taking feats. If your game doesn't use starships then you don't have to include those archetypes, easy peasy. If you are going to do lots of ship stuff, then everyone being able to contribute is going to be even more important.

[breithauptclan]

Driftbourne wrote:

I think that Starship-related archetypes should be free archetypes with automatic or free costing progression so they don't get in the way of your class progression. With a non-free version available for Pathfinder characters.

I'm not understanding what you mean by Pathfinder characters.

The Soldier is claimed to not just be "Fighter in space". Because that is what the imported Fighter class from the Pathfinder2e Player Core book is supposed to be.

So treating PF2 classes as second rate classes just seems unjust. If a campaign wouldn't fit particular classes from PF2, then those classes should not be allowed starting in session 0. But if they are allowed, then they should be fully allowed and supported.

Driftbourne wrote:

I agree and would add that some themes could even be both backgrounds and Archetypes. Backgrounds would give you the 1st level abilities of a theme and an archetype gives you the upgrade abilities at higher levels that a theme would.

The first example that I can think of for this is the Herbalist background and the Herbalist archetype.

[Romão98]

Driftbourne wrote:

I think that Starship-related archetypes should be free archetypes with automatic or free costing progression so they don't get in the way of your class progression. With a non-free version available for Pathfinder characters.

Lightning Raven wrote:

Starship-related themes/archetypes should be tied to a character progression that happens besides normal class progression, so that every type of character can perform their roles properly in any kind of starship combat they come up with in SF2e.

I disagree. I don't believe this is the role of the archetype, if players want to be competent at something they should invest in skill progression and skill feats. Archetypes are for characters who want to stand out and be able to do something that only they can.

Assuming there is a "Piloting" skill, players will invest in that skill at different degrees (just like medicine in Pathfinder). Some will select "Piloting skill feats". However, the one who takes the Ace Pilot archetype will be "The Guy!" Piloting is going to be a big part of this character's identity.

[Perpdepog]

Romão98 wrote:

Driftbourne wrote:

I think that Starship-related archetypes should be free archetypes with automatic or free costing progression so they don't get in the way of your class progression. With a non-free version available for Pathfinder characters.

Lightning Raven wrote:

Starship-related themes/archetypes should be tied to a character progression that happens besides normal class progression, so that every type of character can perform their roles properly in any kind of starship combat they come up with in SF2e.

I disagree. I don't believe this is the role of the archetype, if players want to be competent at something they should invest in skill progression and skill feats. Archetypes are for characters who want to stand out and be able to do something that only they can.

Assuming there is a "Piloting" skill, players will invest in that skill at different degrees (just like medicine in Pathfinder). Some will select "Piloting skill feats". However, the one who takes the Ace Pilot archetype will be "The Guy!" Piloting is going to be a big part of this character's identity.

The issue with that approach is that flying starships is a core conceit of the genre Starfinder takes place in, and is an expected thing that most parties will be doing, at least a few times.

Gating the ability to participate in starship combat behind taking skills is a relatively small burden, but requiring multiple feats to be good at only creates tension between the members of the group. Now starship combat is either the time when one or two players get to do lots of cool stuff, and the others have to sit on their hands until the encounter is over, which isn't fun, or the player who invested heavily into starship combat proficiency isn't in starship combats and their character suffers in other forms of encounter because fighting in a starship is what they've been built for, which is also not fun.
At any given time someone isn't having fun, which is the opposite goal of what a game mechanic should be striving to achieve.

[Driftbourne]

Romão98 wrote:

Driftbourne wrote:

I think that Starship-related archetypes should be free archetypes with automatic or free costing progression so they don't get in the way of your class progression. With a non-free version available for Pathfinder characters.

Lightning Raven wrote:

Starship-related themes/archetypes should be tied to a character progression that happens besides normal class progression, so that every type of character can perform their roles properly in any kind of starship combat they come up with in SF2e.

I disagree. I don't believe this is the role of the archetype, if players want to be competent at something they should invest in skill progression and skill feats. Archetypes are for characters who want to stand out and be able to do something that only they can.

Assuming there is a "Piloting" skill, players will invest in that skill at different degrees (just like medicine in Pathfinder). Some will select "Piloting skill feats". However, the one who takes the Ace Pilot archetype will be "The Guy!" Piloting is going to be a big part of this character's identity.

The current starship combat is an almost completely separate subsystem from the core game. Ace Pilot is the only real connection to it you can choose at character creation other than using your other skills that just happen also to be used in Starship combat. If Starfinder 2e didn't have to be compatible with Pathfinder 2e I'd go as far to say starship combat as it currently is, should be its own separate part of character development and advancement. In the Navy, if you serve on a submarine learning basic submarine skills and learning your job function on the sub are two different schools.

Archetypes come in two types, other(general) and multi-class. Having starship skills as an archetype is a bit more like a multi-class, just without a class behind it. Having a Pathfinder character learn starship skills would be more like taking a multi-class archetype than a flavor archetype. And for Starfinder characters, I think it should be an option to take at creation as a free archetype.

That's how I feel about the current starship rules. What would be best for Strfnder 2e. I'm kind of leaning toward having starship combat in Starfnder 2e using normal combat rules with a few variations on initiative for the pilots, and slightly different initiative options for the rest of the crew. Other than movement rules, I think the variant rules to make this work with regular combat could be as short as one or two paragraphs, not including starship role actions. But I think it's really too soon to get into that, we haven't even seen the new starship combat in Starfnder Enhanced yet.