Depends on how the resurrectee is being resurrected.
If Resurrect, the resurrectee doesn't really really know anything beyond what they would know about the person standing directly in front of him when he woke up from being dead.
If the resurrectee didn't know anything about the caster of the Ritual before they died, after they are resurrected, that is still the case.
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So they have no idea if it's a Champion resurrecting them as an ally or a demon resurrecting them to torture them?
This sounds like something that should be handled above the table, rather than in-game.
PF2 isn't the game to play if you want to have an antagonist relationship between GM and players.
Narratively, I think in PF2 the answer is you don't know anything.
However, for a GM to pull something on the player like resurrection only to put the character in a worse state (unless talked about and agreed to beforehand) is not acceptable from a "happy gaming" perspective.
I agree, don't create an antagonistic relationship between players and GMs.
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Doesn't necessarily have to be a gm vs player thing. After all, the same situation you're describing not wanting to inflict on players is also one the players can inflict on some enemy for one reason or another.
When any creature dies, they immediately arrive in The Boneyard. I envision this as a 'check out' line of a bunch of dead people waiting to talk to Pharasma.
Once a player declares they have no intention of being resurrected, then Pharasma has judged that players character and they move out to an appropriate outer sphere, as determined by the GM if it is necessary. Only incredibly powerful magic can bring the character back at that point.
Such magic would directly oppose Pharasmas judgement; as such, she would directly intervene in such cases - or at the very least send a Morrigna to recollect the soul. So any creature using such magic should fully anticipate combatting CR15+ to deity level threats.
While the PC is still in the 'check out' line, if someone attempts to resurrect that PC, that PC basically hears a little bell in their head and can choose to go back to being alive or stay in line to be judged. Neither option opposes Pharasmas will, you simply came to see her too soon; she will see you eventually.
If you want, GM has discretion for Pharasma (aka the GM) to provide insight on who is attempting to bring the players character back, but the player doesn't have a way to gain that knowledge on their own. They are dead, they have no power here - barring extraneous means by which they arrived in The Boneyard.
Doesn't necessarily have to be a gm vs player thing. After all, the same situation you're describing not wanting to inflict on players is also one the players can inflict on some enemy for one reason or another.
Technically true, but as the GM playing those characters it's less worrisome because there isn't the same level of attachment.
If the players resurrect an enemy to do some horrible stuff to them...well I hope they were already evil because if not...well think again. But outside of that, as a GM it could honestly be a useful tool to direct or misdirect players in a way that you like.
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At Euler, I believe it's been stated that Pharasma actually knows if a soul is going to be resurrected (although perhaps less reliably since the death of Aroden) and intentionally delays final judgement until after then. I think once judgement has happened it's impossible to resurrect someone. Like even deity level magic wont do it IIRC.
PF2E makes no distinction. It gives that freedom to the GM. The GM is Pharasma and gets the final say in whether or not a any creature comes back. The GM (aka Pharasma) can depart some wisdom to influence the resurrectees decision, if you (the GM aka Pharasma) wish.
if you're a CE cult leader or something and a LG Cleric of Torag is trying to resurrect you...then you might very decide it's a trick/trap and refuse to come back.
In this case, you the GM (aka Pharasma) have the luxury of deciding if the cult leader knows its the PCs that just killed him that are trying to resurrect him (and whether he wants to wait for another person to resurrect him) or if its another entity that might be hostile to the cult leader.
It is the GMs call if the cult leader has already been judged by Pharasma before the players have the opportunity to resurrect them. If the cult leader has been judged, the players have no way to bring him back.That is what the rules say. As for advice on how to run it, I would say: Tell a story. If you as GM think it would be cooler to allow the players to resurrect the cultist to interrogate him/torture him then do it. It might give the players some satisfaction that their plans were worth it or not thwarted because the barbarian hit him too hard. If you the GM dont like the plan and it doesnt match your story, then tell the players that the spell didnt work. You can choose to disclose that Pharasma prohibited it or that the cultist doesnt want to return, if you wish - perhaps via a Recall Knowledge: Pharasma Lore check.
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@DesEuler, I believe it's been stated that Pharasma actually knows if a soul is going to be resurrected (although perhaps less reliably since the death of Aroden) and intentionally delays final judgement until after then.
Sorry, I missed this until now. You are correct. Pharasma has no qualms with delaying judgement or resurrection magic. There are even some undead she is apathetic to the existence of (depending on their pretext...similar reasoning to dhampirs), so the cultist could just come back on his own if the GM wanted.
However... spells like Rest Eternal, Gentle Repose, and Bind Soul kind of murky the water a bit.Pharasma is fine delaying judgement until the dead creature is ready to truly pass on, but she might assign a Catrina to usher them along.
I think once judgement has happened it's impossible to resurrect someone. Like even deity level magic wont do it IIRC.
This, however, is mostly correct. Players in PF2E currently have no way to do this (to my knowledge); however, spells like Judgement Undone have existed in previous editions.
While they may have no intention of returning this spell, its worth noting that the spells currently available to the player are not an exhaustive list of all the magic options in the multiverse - otherwise future books and mythic adventures would never happen. Someone or something out there has the potential to do it. That is kind of the entire purview of Olethros.When a creature is judged, it is trasformed into a Petitioner. There is also some murkiness surrounding them, where it could be possible (through planar travel+modify memory+change shape, etc.) to 'recover' a judged soul Petitioner, but no explicit method to recover a judged soul has been mentioned thusfar in PF2E.
Pharasma does have the ability to undo her own judgement, though. Convincing her to do so, however, is an entirely different story and in the GMs hands at that point. Performing some Monitor-related task on her behalf that an Olethros, or perhaps Morrigna, is incapable of seems appropriate.
If the soul's Petitioner dies (by GM discretion), it is final. Not even deity level entities, at least not Pharamsa, can recover the soul. Urgathoa might have a way, but I doubt it? Or perhaps a deity with domain over the Positive Energy plane might be able to? But I didnt major in Positive Energy Plane lore. :)
I think y'all might be overreading the question. Tl:dr, the OP seems correct that PF2 has altered it so the recipients do not know who's attempting to bring them back from the dead.
In PF1 (& previous editions), the recipient knew who was calling them back. They could refuse to accept the spell. This refusal had nothing to do with Pharasma, and the recipient could accept the same spell from a different source later if desired. I think it was to prevent the shenanigans involved as noted above, i.e. bringing back one's enemies, which could also be useful so that allies cannot. Capturing a soul took even higher level magic (& expense), so this was a good strategic move for campaigns into such machinations.
In PF2, that language is missing, so the recipient has no knowledge of the spellcaster/ritualist. With Resurrect, the recipient returns with no choice in the matter. With Raise Dead, the spell fails if the recipient does not wish to return to life, though that's again with no knowledge of who's trying so it's a final, general answer to all castings. One might even say the soul doesn't even know about any castings.
Of course Pharasma (as a useful narrative tool for the GM) can override this, but that's as true for all editions. With that anti-shenanigan tool at hand & a stronger emphasis on Golarion & its deities, the language from 3.X could be dropped for PF2. The GM can choose how best to serve the narrative (and players explicitly should expect this), which IMO is especially important when making specific deaths final thus pivotal.
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[...]If Pharasma has decided that the target’s time has come or the target doesn’t wish to return, this ritual automatically fails[...]
The resurrectee has a choice.
So they have no idea if it's a Champion resurrecting them as an ally or a demon resurrecting them to torture them?
Correct. In PF2E, the resurrectee does not know anything about the caster (unlike in PF1E) unless Pharasma (aka the GM) chooses to divulge information to the resurrectee before they make their decision to accept the resurrection.
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In this case, you the GM (aka Pharasma) have the luxury of deciding if the cult leader knows its the PCs that just killed him that are trying to resurrect him (and whether he wants to wait for another person to resurrect him) or if its another entity that might be hostile to the cult leader.Do people waiting in line at the Boneyard have any real sense of time? Would they even be able to say "It's been two weeks instead of one day since I died so it might be allies of mine trying to rez me vs those PC jerks that just killed me?"
Or does this all just go into the category of GM fiat?
My concern is that if Pharasma starts being like "Psst here's who's rezzing you" in some cases the players will take that as an expectation for all cases. Which is not necessarily an issue, but then that's then an established norm outside of the rules which I want to be cautious about.
The first thing to remember is that the petitioner in the boneyard isn't really "you". Now technically you don't become a petitioner until you're judged. But the are also text that say if a petitioner is resurrected they don't remember their time there. Which conflicts with the broader idea that once judged you cannot be resurrected. So I'm not sure how all that shakes out exactly.
Personally, I would say that mortal souls/petitioners have no ability to accurately judge the time they have been waiting to be judge, or how long they've been in their destination after judgement.
It also feels like these questions about the river of souls and the boneyard and judgement and such would be something covered better by the Lost Omens Campaign Setting rather than game mechanics rules.
It also feels like these questions about the river of souls and the boneyard and judgement and such would be something covered better by the Lost Omens Campaign Setting rather than game mechanics rules.
True, as a GM I'm going to make the world fit the story I want to tell. Even if it means going against published lore, at least about something that so few people would actually interact with.
While clerics and champions may interact with their deities, most people don't experience the river of souls and return.
And while there might be published lore around it, I never let that inhibit what I want to do. Published lore is a useful guideline and tool, and helps manage player expectations to an extent. But I won't let it be a straightjacket.
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It also feels like these questions about the river of souls and the boneyard and judgement and such would be something covered better by the Lost Omens Campaign Setting rather than game mechanics rules.If there's nothing in the rules about it, yes. Originally the whole "You know the name/alignment/deity" bit was in the primary PF1 rules.
In PF2, there's nothing in the rules about it.
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But the are also text that say if a petitioner is resurrected they don't remember their time there.Do you happen to know where that text could be found?
Personally, I would say that mortal souls/petitioners have no ability to accurately judge the time they have been waiting to be judge, or how long they've been in their destination after judgement.Yeah, I've played the whole thing as being hazy with vague memories of waiting in a line but can't remember anything more than that.
In 1st edition Petitioner entry says:
Petitioners are the souls of mortals brought to the Outer Planes after death in order to experience their ultimate punishment, reward, or fate. A petitioner retains fragments of its memories from life, and its appearance depends not only upon the shape it held in life but also upon the nature of the Outer Plane to which it has come. The stat block detailed above presents a typical petitioner formed from the soul of an average human—it does not include any of the plane-specific abilities or features a petitioner gains, and should be modified as appropriate depending on the plane to which the petitioner is assigned.
Creatures who die, become petitioners, and then return to life retain no memories of the time they spent as petitioners in the afterlife. A petitioner who dies is gone forever—its “life force” has either returned to the Positive Energy Plane or, in some cases, provided the energy to trigger the creation of another outsider. Petitioners who please a deity or another powerful outsider can be granted rewards—the most common such reward manifests as a transformation into a different outsider, such as an archon, azata, demon, or devil, depending upon the petitioner’s alignment. In rare cases, a creature can retain its personality from life all the way through its existence as a petitioner and into its third “life” as an outsider, although such events are rare indeed.
In 2nd edition:
When a mortal dies, their soul travels to the Boneyard in the Outer Planes where they are judged by Pharasma, the goddess of the dead. Once they have been judged, their soul is sent on to their final reward or punishment in the afterlife, and in the process is transformed into a creature known as a petitioner. This process grants the soul a new body, one whose shape is the result of the prevailing philosophical forces of the plane to which it is sent. The petitioner's memories from their life are typically wiped nearly clean, allowing them to retain only a few hazy fragments akin to half-remembered dreams. Regardless of the petitioner's size, power, or nature in life, they're a Medium creature in their afterlife.
Existence as a petitioner can last for eons, but this state is not necessarily eternal. Deities, powerful denizens of the Great Beyond, or even the outer planes themselves can further change the petitioner's nature by transforming them into raw quintessence, spiritual essence that is then used to expand a plane's physical manifestation, or by transforming the petitioner into a new form of supernatural life such as a celestial, monitor, or fiend. Should a petitioner die, their body breaks down in a process akin to decay, their nature reverting back to the quintessence or elements that make up their plane. This represents the true end of a soul's journey: their associated life essence travels back to the heart of the Great Beyond to be recycled into the Positive Energy plane, fueling the creation of entirely new souls.
So first edition explicitly states they don't remember time as a petitioner while 2nd edition is silent on the topic. But both make it clear that a petitioner remembers next to nothing about their mortal life.