|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Themetricsystem wrote: "Can you see empty and completely transparent atmosphere?" is on the same level as asking "A tree falls in the woods and there is no living creature to hear it, does it make a sound?"
Personally, I'd say no to both.
1) I (and just about anyone else) can roundabout pinpoint a location a set amount from a reference point. Conversely, using visible reference points, I (and just about everyone else) can identify a point in space (or empty air). Therefore it is wholly within reason that a character (whose world operates similar to our own) can target a point in the open air.
2) Sound is not defined by the sense of hearing. It is a mechanical wave that is a transfer of energy through a medium.
breithauptclan wrote: It is actually quite astonishing how much you are digging in your heels against the concept that people are quite capable of jumping and hitting things.
As a kid I have several times had to jump and swing a stick at a ball that got caught on a tree branch. No specialized training needed.
goal posting much?
initially you claimed that actively swinging a weapon is the same as grabbing a ledge
now you say popping a stuck ball out of the tree is the same as swinging a weapon.
what's next?
i get it, you want your cake and eat it too, sorry can't have it.
while it's perfectly normal to jump and grab stuff, it's not perfectly normal to jump and execute a full martial swing at something, not without a specific maneuver at least.
anyways, the RAW still is that neither is allowed, if you think my houserule, that alleviate problems, are "not enough" for your tastes, don't play in my tables then, problem solved.
Squiggit wrote: shroudb wrote:
raw, you fall after you jump, you don't get to make an action midair.
Slight correction: as far as I can tell, there is no RAW answer. The falling rules say nothing about the timing of a fall.
The only place in the CRB that I've found that has any mention of timing is the description of the Fly action (you fall at the end of your turn if you don't Fly), but many people here are dismissive of that text. the book is written with permissive language. which means it has to state what you CAN do (becauise it would have been impossible to mention everything you can't do).
if you have no Fly speed, no mention of how long you can stay in the air, by the way the book is written, defaults in "you can't", so you fall. instantly.
but people like to nitpick trying to find loopholes.
using your logic, you can "triple jump in the air", right?
jump upwards 1 action. now that you are in the air, jump again, now that you are in the air, jump again.
perfectly legal in your opinion because neither during the 2nd nor the 3rd action your turn has ended and leap says nothing about "you have to be standing on ground".
---
better yet, by your logic, you can leapfrog over a chasm. stand on the edge, leap, leap, leap, land on the other side!
If you're interested in the physics, the distance fallen under constant acceleration is given by the formula d = 0.5gt², where g is the acceleration due to gravity (9.8 m/s²) and t is the time in seconds.
If we ignore air resistance, the distance fallen in 6 seconds would be:
d = 0.5 * 9.8 m/s² * (6 s)² = 0.5 * 9.8 m/s² * 36 s² = 176.4 meters
However in reality, air resistance does play a role as the object's speed increases. The true distance would be somewhat less than 176.4 meters due to air resistance slowing the object's acceleration, but that's another physics problem and heavily influenced by how many belts, shoe covers, and bracers your character is wearing ("under the belt" jab at WAR art).
Plane wrote: If we ignore air resistance, the distance fallen in 6 seconds would be:
d = 0.5 * 9.8 m/s² * (6 s)² = 0.5 * 9.8 m/s² * 36 s² = 176.4 meters
Which is suspiciously 577 feet. 'You fall about 500 feet in the first round of falling'
For the first 2 seconds, which is about 1 action, it would be 65 ft.
Not arguing to apply real physics to PF. Just some comparison.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
shroudb wrote: the book is written with permissive language. which means it has to state what you CAN do (becauise it would have been impossible to mention everything you can't do).
if you have no Fly speed, no mention of how long you can stay in the air, by the way the book is written, defaults in "you can't", so you fall. instantly.
and I'm merely pointing out that there is no passage in the book that defines that.
Further, you mention that the book has to state what you can do... nowhere does in the book does it state that creatures with a fly speed fall differently than normal characters if they aren't flying (even though that assertion is essential to this argument). You can't pick and choose here.
Though honestly the "permissive language" argument is a bit of a trap here. The issue isn't over whether you "can" or "cannot" do something, it's over the timing of automatic movement not being defined. Either interpretation changes what you can and can't do without explicitly saying so, so it's not a useful frame of reference here.
Squiggit wrote: shroudb wrote: the book is written with permissive language. which means it has to state what you CAN do (becauise it would have been impossible to mention everything you can't do).
if you have no Fly speed, no mention of how long you can stay in the air, by the way the book is written, defaults in "you can't", so you fall. instantly.
and I'm merely pointing out that there is no passage in the book that defines that.
Further, you mention that the book has to state what you can do... nowhere does in the book does it state that creatures with a fly speed fall differently than normal characters if they aren't flying (even though that assertion is essential to this argument). You can't pick and choose here.
Though honestly the "permissive language" argument is a bit of a trap here. The issue isn't over whether you "can" or "cannot" do something, it's over the timing of automatic movement not being defined. Either interpretation changes what you can and can't do without explicitly saying so, so it's not a useful frame of reference here. so...
with your definition of "a creature starts falling at the end of his turn":
if you shove a creature off a cliff, he stays up in the air, until the start of his turn, and then he can simply leap back to the cliff.
or, you can cross a 30ft chasm by doing 3 10ft leaps?
by default, if we use that definition on anything that isn't actively Flying, the game breaks. You literally have level 1 peasants able to jump on air consecutively.
p.s. that's why it's helpful to quote the whole thing you are replying to instead of nitpicking a sentence out of it. there were examples there that you failed to answer in your post.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
The examples were irrelevant and relied on putting words in other peoples' mouth, so I didn't reply to them. I'm not really interested in reframing the conversation as me vs you or whatever, I'm just interested in examining what RAW exists (and doesn't exist). There are definitely reasons it might be preferable to make a character fall immediately, I just think it's weird that the RAW is so unclear.
If you believe characters can leap in mid air and want to run the game that way, more power to you, but it's not really the topic here.
Squiggit wrote:
If you believe characters can leap in mid air and want to run the game that way, more power to you, but it's not really the topic here.
I don't. The people who say you don't fall immediately do.
And it's exactly what we're talking about: the timing of when you fall.
That's why I say that you fall immediately.
There's 0 difference in leap and Strike in this context.
If you allow midair strikes "because that's what the rules say" then you must allow midair jumps "because that's what the rules say".
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
shroudb wrote: I don't. The people who say you don't fall immediately do. You are the only one advocating for this.
Quote: And it's exactly what we're talking about: the timing of when you fall.
That's why I say that you fall immediately.
There's 0 difference in leap and Strike in this context.
So to clarify your position: I shove someone off a 600 foot cliff. They instantaneously are moved 500 feet down, because that's how far they fall in the first round and they fall immediately.
On their turn, they float in that spot in the air (since it's still the same round) and can, if they choose, spend their actions to leap or jump through the air without needing a solid surface to stand on.
Then, sometime later (top of the initiative order so it's 'next round'? or perhaps on my turn so it's one round later? please specify) they fall the rest of the way.
That seems consistent with everything you've been saying about how falling works, but let me know if I missed something.
Also, how do your air jumps interact with total distance for the purpose of falling damage?
Again, apologies, but it would be helpful to have any page number citations you're referencing for this.
Squiggit wrote: shroudb wrote: I don't. The people who say you don't fall immediately do. You are the only one advocating for this. never did advocate. In FACT i said the exact opposite.
just said that floating in midair after you jump until the end of your turn leads to such absurdities.
Don't put words into my mouth please just because you lack points.
That is what I said about midair jumps:
shroudb wrote:
by default, if we use that definition on anything that isn't actively Flying, the game breaks. You literally have level 1 peasants able to jump on air consecutively.
the exact opposite of what you claim I am doing (advocating).
Squiggit wrote:
Quote: And it's exactly what we're talking about: the timing of when you fall.
That's why I say that you fall immediately.
There's 0 difference in leap and Strike in this context.
So to clarify your position: I shove someone off a 600 foot cliff. They instantaneously are moved 500 feet down, because that's how far they fall in the first round and they fall immediately.
correct.
as soon as they are pushed off the ledge, they fall (up to) 500ft. Instantly.
Same thing if they simply jump 10ft in the air. As soon as the Leap is concluded, they fall. (i said that as a purely houserule i also allow grabbing, but i acknoledge that this is my houserule to help with rule of cool and such in my tables)
if that is not enough to reach the ground they indeed have a full round to do what they want (that is consistent with my ruling about what's allowed or not) and they continue to fall the 1500(?) that's for the second round.
As for Leaps:
my position is that you cannot Strike without leverage, similarily, you cannot Leap without leverage.
but you could grab a ledge OR grab someone nearby your spot.
---
that is consistent with how traps like pitraps works as well. As soon as you walk into one and fail the save, you fall and take damage (assuming you don't grab an edge). And then still have the rest of your actions available to you, in the bottom of the pit.
---
the Falling rules are very brief, you can stop your sarcastic tone and tell me instead what is YOUR position:
Can someone Jump and strike (without feats)?
tell me the page it says you can.
And if he can, why can't he also Leap while doing so?
again, i need a page number from you.
if you fall into a pittrap, do you take the rest of your actions in the bottom of the pit or midair before going down?
shroudb wrote: Squiggit wrote: shroudb wrote: I don't. The people who say you don't fall immediately do. You are the only one advocating for this. never did advocate. In FACT i said the exact opposite. Squiggit is pointing out that you are the only one advocating for the opposite - that there is RAW rules that state clearly that you fall immediately if you are pushed off of a ledge.
Which doesn't match what the Forced Movement rules actually say.
If you don't have a fly speed, you can't be pushed into a location that you don't have the movement speed to reach - such as a point 15 feet above the ground.
You can, however, be pushed off of a ledge if you don't have a fly speed. From there, you could use the Grab an Edge reaction, or fall at some unspecified point in the round. Don't confuse this with the Leap action where you have to complete the action and land before you can take any further actions.
If you do have a fly speed, you are able to be pushed into a location that you could reach with that speed. So you could be pushed 15 feet into the air, or off of a ledge. If you are pushed off of a ledge, it follows that you arrived at that location due to your fly speed and you would be flying there and will continue to do so unless you don't use a fly action before the end of your next turn.
breithauptclan wrote: shroudb wrote: Squiggit wrote: shroudb wrote: I don't. The people who say you don't fall immediately do. You are the only one advocating for this. never did advocate. In FACT i said the exact opposite. Squiggit is pointing out that you are the only one advocating for the opposite - that there is RAW rules that state clearly that you fall immediately if you are pushed off of a ledge.
Which doesn't match what the Forced Movement rules actually say.
If you don't have a fly speed, you can't be pushed into a location that you don't have the movement speed to reach - such as a point 15 feet above the ground.
You can, however, be pushed off of a ledge if you don't have a fly speed. From there, you could use the Grab an Edge reaction, or fall at some unspecified point in the round. Don't confuse this with the Leap action where you have to complete the action and land before you can take any further actions.
If you do have a fly speed, you are able to be pushed into a location that you could reach with that speed. So you could be pushed 15 feet into the air, or off of a ledge. If you are pushed off of a ledge, it follows that you arrived at that location due to your fly speed and you would be flying there and will continue to do so unless you don't use a fly action before the end of your next turn. So I'm gonna ask once more what you think happens in those two scenarios:
1)With your first action you fall into a pittrap and fail to catch an edge. Do you have the rest of your actions after you fall in the bottom of the pit or before you fall in? (potentially being able to cast Fly as an example before hitting the ground).
2)same as above but instead of a pittrap you walk over a ledge. When do you take your 2 remaining actions?
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
shroudb wrote: So I'm gonna ask once more what you think happens in those two scenarios:
1)With your first action you fall into a pittrap and fail to catch an edge. Do you have the rest of your actions after you fall in the bottom of the pit or before you fall in? (potentially being able to cast Fly as an example before hitting the ground).
2)same as above but instead of a pittrap you walk over a ledge. When do you take your 2 remaining actions?
Why does it matter what I think happens or how I run it in my games?
The point is that the rules don't actually say one way or the other. Nothing tells us definitively when a creature falls.
breithauptclan wrote: shroudb wrote: So I'm gonna ask once more what you think happens in those two scenarios:
1)With your first action you fall into a pittrap and fail to catch an edge. Do you have the rest of your actions after you fall in the bottom of the pit or before you fall in? (potentially being able to cast Fly as an example before hitting the ground).
2)same as above but instead of a pittrap you walk over a ledge. When do you take your 2 remaining actions?
Why does it matter what I think happens or how I run it in my games?
The point is that the rules don't actually say one way or the other. Nothing tells us definitively when a creature falls. And yet, I haven't played with anyone that didn't apply the damage of the pit trap as soon as you fail to grab an edge.
To me, it is as intuitive that the effect (fall) happens immediately like all effects except those that specifically say otherwise.
So, the way I read it, failure to specify a time in the rules defaults to immediately.
Also, even you agree that:
breithauptclan wrote: Don't confuse this with the Leap action where you have to complete the action and land before you can take any further actions.
So, if you have to resolve the Leap fully, including falling down, then how can you make a Strike *before* resolving it?
So you do have to first fall immediately after you leap before you can continue.
You are saying the same thing as me.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Minor bit of pedantry: you have to already be falling in order to use Grab an Edge.
In many cases, falling immediately makes sense. In others, less so.
Walking across a room and running afoul of a pit trap - makes sense to rule that you fall immediately.
Having a fly speed and being shoved off of a ledge - doesn't make as much sense to rule that you fall immediately.
Being unable to jump and hit something - RAW yes, but also doesn't make much sense. It would be better to apply penalties to damage. Perhaps rule that attack roll always uses DEX modifier as though the weapon had finesse and remove STR bonus to the damage. Being completely unable to even swing a shortsword while in the air strains credibility.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
shroudb wrote: Also, even you agree that:
breithauptclan wrote: Don't confuse this with the Leap action where you have to complete the action and land before you can take any further actions.
So, if you have to resolve the Leap fully, including falling down, then how can you make a Strike *before* resolving it?
So you do have to first fall immediately after you leap before you can continue.
You are saying the same thing as me.
What I am saying is that you can't extrapolate that rule for Leap to every other instance where a character could fall.
Leap has the Simultaneous Actions rule that prevents doing things in the middle of your jump. By RAW you have to fall before you can use another action.
Being pushed off of a ledge, or even using Dimension Door to a point up in the air - doesn't.
breithauptclan wrote:
In many cases, falling immediately makes sense. In others, less so.
Walking across a room and running afoul of a pit trap - makes sense to rule that you fall immediately.
Having a fly speed and being shoved off of a ledge - doesn't make as much sense to rule that you fall immediately.
But those are the cases I argue about.
I even said that in case you are Flying the timing of what's described in the Fly action (at the end of your turn) is the correct one.
But similar to leap (where you include fall as part of the action intuitively) I think it's a fair statement that any action that would result to "fall" similarly contains it as part of that action.
If I throw someone off a ledge somehow, that action already should include the falling him down as part of said action before I can continue my turn.
Narratively, I would personally allow someone to do some actions if he planned to dd in the air, I don't think that's raw, but I can understand the player saying that he's preparing for that, similarly for the second round of a huge free fall,but for most cases what makes sense is that you fall immediately.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
shroudb wrote: But those are the cases I argue about.
I even said that in case you are Flying the timing of what's described in the Fly action (at the end of your turn) is the correct one.
But similar to leap (where you include fall as part of the action intuitively) I think it's a fair statement that any action that would result to "fall" similarly contains it as part of that action.
And the arguments will be endless because the rules are not explicit enough.
While it is certainly a fair statement to say that any scenario where you could fall, you fall immediately - that isn't a RAW rules statement. The rule in the Fly action saying that you fall at the end of your turn only applies if you are already flying - not just if you have a fly speed.
And that leaves a lot of cases and scenarios completely undefined by RAW. Most are not hard to come up with a ruling for that makes sense. But sometimes there is more than one ruling that makes sense and different GMs will come to different conclusions.
Recent threads in Rules Discussion
|
