I have been tinkering with this idea for a long time. It started from a desire to make a class that was as simple as possible, while not being too powerful or too weak. It also comes from a desire to emulate classical mythological heroes and pulp heroes.
Originally, the class was only made of ability score increases, with strength and dexterity being equal. But I felt this was maybe a little too simple, so I added the quirks, and switched the dexterity bonus to the lower track to balance. I'm still not sure how I feel about the quirks. I'm not sure if I should allow more of them at higher levels. And I don't care for how all work, especially the exotic and heavy weapons quirk, which don't scale as the others do.
I'd like feedback about the class in general. I'm concerned about the balance, but it feels like it checks out in my head. It's pretty comparable to moderately well built fighter.
Consider level 10. The paragon has BAB 7 with an effective +5 to attack from the +10 strength, so attack bonus of 12 before outside benefits. Meanwhile the fighter has BAB 10 with +2 from weapon training, and likely a +1 from greater weapon focus, so a total +13 before outside bonuses. The paragon has its bonuses outside of combat, but the fighter gets similar bonuses from its bonus feats and advanced weapon training. It's hard to one to one compare all of that, but it feels pretty close.
I've only gotten limited playtesting of the Basic Paragon, but it seems to perform about as well as you'd expect a fighter to perform.
I see your class and this paragon class is more like a racial class, now in my opinion why dont you let the mighty be chosen between 1 of the 6 stats as the focus of his primary attribute; the resolution you select 1 of the remaining stats and gain half bonus equal to what you got in the mighty, each time you get the resolution it start gaining half bonus equal to the previous resolution, in this way for me not all paragon will be the same
Since it's pretty stacked as a 1 lv dip, it might be worth implementing a hard requirement to never multiclass into the lv 1 features. Beyond that... It seems okay. Loads of raw numbers aren't exciting, but it should be workable. Since it gets so few abilities to affect the world around it (besides getting huge), I would consider juicing the baseline skills/lv to 4 or even 6.
Additionally i can suggest that you divide the quirk as: hero, saint, sage and alike. Each one give some numbers of ability that can modify the class, let say hero gain base attack equal to his lvl but you need 2 hero ability to gain this 1, or the sage increase the skill value 1 rank higher everytime he select this quirk (2+int, 4+int, 6+int to max 8+int)
Thanks for the feedback.
Since it's pretty stacked as a 1 lv dip, it might be worth implementing a hard requirement to never multiclass into the lv 1 features. Beyond that... It seems okay. Loads of raw numbers aren't exciting, but it should be workable. Since it gets so few abilities to affect the world around it (besides getting huge), I would consider juicing the baseline skills/lv to 4 or even 6.
I've considered moving quirk to level 2. I'm not crazy about that, because I like the class being fully online from level 1, but it would help with the front loading.
Thanks for the feedback.
I see your class and this paragon class is more like a racial class
That wasn't what I was going for, though it is a bit like a class based on the advanced template.
, now in my opinion why dont you let the mighty be chosen between 1 of the 6 stats as the focus of his primary attribute; the resolution you select 1 of the remaining stats and gain half bonus equal to what you got in the mighty, each time you get the resolution it start gaining half bonus equal to the previous resolution, in this way for me not all paragon will be the same
I had considered that. But it was very messy and complicated and ultimately not what I really wanted. As for differentiation, you could aim for all kinds of different paragon: sword and board, two-hander, archery, face, etc. It just depends on where you stick your feats and skills. But this is also part of why I added quirks. The quirk you choose can give you a very different play style
I'd really like to add an archery focused quirk, but couldn't think of anything appropriate. Speedy is already pretty good for an archer, but not specifically meant for them. Speedy was more like my option for "pounce".
I check you class and see that it's don't give bonus to int can you tell me why?
I check you class and see that it's don't give bonus to int can you tell me why?
There is a quirk for that. The main reason it is not on by default is that increasing intelligence is “messy”. The number of skills jump and lots of ranks have to be added at intervals. One of the main design goals was to be simple to play and level up. But if anyone wants to deal with that, they can quirk into it.
There was also a feeling that not all pulp or mythological heroes are very smart, so I didn’t like them being stuck with becoming a super genius.
The very first version of this class had slow BAB progression and all poor saves, but received +1 to all ability scores every level. I didn’t like the first level giving no benefit if you didn’t have any odd ability scores though.
Later I had strength and dexterity increasing by 2 at first level and the rest trailing behind. This guaranteed the first level of the class did something. I do miss dexterity keeping pace with strength, but was afraid it was too much benefit for the inclusion of the quirks. I’m still not stuck to the idea of quirks, but do feel it helps with the class fantasy of various types of heroes
So, I'm pleasantly surprised that no one thinks the class is obviously overpowered, with even one comment that it could use some minor buffs. I may play with adding additional quirks for later levels. And i'm thinking about delaying the first quirk till level 2, to make dipping a little less tempting.
The class is super simple, but surprisingly compelling...
Thanks for the feedback.
I will probably leave swapping the Mighty and Resolute options to archetypes. For instance, I've been brewing a "caster" archetype in my head that drops strength to gain some charisma based spell like abilities. Archetypes are nice, because those could be as complicated as I or anyone else wanted to make them.
I like your skill path idea. I will need to give that some thought. It does sort of match the theme of what I'm doing. That's a lot of skills that I'd need to create abilities around, and then other abilities to make them useful. For instance what would fly do at level 1, and what kind of flight would the quirk advance to towards higher level?
I'd frankly love to add more quirks. I have 2 main concerns with that. The first you already mentioned, as it is an addition to complexity. The second is that I'm still not sure about the power level. This class gets simple things, but they are very wide ranging. I'm worried there may be some sort of interaction I had not considered. I don't want to be "better" than the other martials at their jobs. But of course, I don't want to be a drag on the party either.
Your Paragon becomes a bit more of a physical all arounder type. Sort of like how most leading characters in action films have a gimmick (or quirk), but are involved in almost every encounter, while their allies tend to be more specialized types needed for specific objectives.
That's more or less what I was going for. Also known as "The Mario". Not the best at anything, but kind of good at everything. I also wanted a class that was super easy to use and welcoming to new players. The bigger charisma bonus is to encourage the player to enter social situations without them actually having to invest in that. But also, because such heroes tend to attract a lot of allies.
Besides the character-type you mentioned, I was also inspired by characters like Odysseus and John Carter. Pulp and mythological heroes.
But I'm trying to do all of that while still not being truly any more powerful than any other class.
Love the concept, I think it is awesome. It definitely does have a mythological hero vibe to it.
Are you going to create a new mythic path specifically for this class? I don’t think you need to, I think either the Champion or Guardian paths would complement this class nicely.
Love the concept, I think it is awesome. It definitely does have a mythological hero vibe to it.
Are you going to create a new mythic path specifically for this class? I don’t think you need to, I think either the Champion or Guardian paths would complement this class nicely.
Thanks for the feedback.
I agree that Champion or Guardian would fit this well. If I made a mythic path to match this, then it would need to simplify mythic the way this simplifies class abilities. It's something interesting to think about when I get some down time.
Funny enough, while making this I did briefly entertain the idea of making base classes based on each mythic path. But I couldn't find a way to make that work in anything like a balanced or reasonable manner without completely rewriting everything.
I’ve read through the rules again and here are my ideas/opinions/suggestions:
The word “quirk” doesn’t fit. “Quirk” implies “peculiar” or “strange” plus it is a relatively modern English word that doesn’t suit the mythological vibe. I would change this to “aspect” which I think fits better as a descriptor and ties into ancient mythology as the root of the word is the Latin word “aspectus”.
Quirks don’t scale well with level, but they should, otherwise at high level play the character will be very weak compared with the other classes. I would work on each quirk granting something new at every even numbered level.
I would combine Heavy Weapons with Exotic Weapons and give it a more generic attack theme with more abilities.
Speed could be a more generic movement ability that also grants a climb speed and swim speed at mid levels, ability to ignore difficult terrain and freedom of movement etc.
Likewise with Heavy Armour, I would make this a more generic defensive ability and grant DR, bonuses on saves etc. at higher levels.
I would add a Charisma focused quirk, maybe called Presence. Presence would allow you to roll twice on Charisma checks and take the best result and at higher levels would grant the Leadership feat, plus other abilities.
Other than quirks, I think all the other mechanics work well and are consistent with the theme. Really love the concept too! I am thinking of offering this as an option at my table.
I'm not married to the name for quirks, so that could change. Aspect is a good suggestion, but maybe we can workshop it more. For lack of confusion I'll stick to quirk for now, but I will likely come out with a 2nd version later that could have the new moniker
I could increase the quirk power, but I was already thinking about adding quirks at a few more points. Maybe grant more at 6, 12 and 16? I was really afraid this was a little too strong and I'm frankly a little surprised everyone is recommending I give it such significant buffs.
I may have mentioned here, but I really wasn't that happy with either weapon quirk. Combining them might be an option.
Speedy uses the same rules as movement so, if you can use your movement to fly or burrow then it should apply to those as well. I might need to refresh myself on those rules though to make sure it works how I think it works.
I wouldn’t worry about being overpowered, especially if you intend this being used by new players. Also, this is nowhere near the raw power or versatility of a cleric or wizard. This looks on par with a fighter in both of those, when possibly it should be on par with a summoner.