Do we really need the Ethereal [i]and[ / i] Astral planes?

[Matthew Morris]

So with all the OGL mess, I was wondering if the Astral and Ethereal planes are OGL or if they are sufficiently generic to be used.

So then I found myself realizing that maybe we don't need both transitive planes.

Anyone else ever merged the two?

[Azothath]

LoL, they're public domain. People have been talking about them for many years.
How exactly they're depicted is where you start wandering into IP.

You should not merge them. Research them on wikipedia.
astral, astral body, aetheral/quintessence, Luminiferous aether, Plato's Theory of forms, ...
It's clear that the many many planes are used to create product and interesting places. Planes are essentially a representation in a bottle, common concepts people have that can be typified as a thing or place, tokenized as an object.

[Senko]

Matthew Morris wrote:

So with all the OGL mess, I was wondering if the Astral and Ethereal planes are OGL or if they are sufficiently generic to be used.

So then I found myself realizing that maybe we don't need both transitive planes.

Anyone else ever merged the two?

I believe the reason we have three (and yes I do use all three of them astral, ethereal, shadow) is that they used to be the barriers between different areas of reality. I think it went Outer, Astral, Material, Ethereal, Elemental with Shadow being the barrier between different material planes. Which is why in all three you could see reflections of the material in different ways as well as how things like the spirit cord (a link between your body and your soul) was in the astral a link between the material and the afterlife. So you could find ways from the material into a transitive plane easier than planeshifting straight from the material to say Elysium.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

Need them?
Not if you want to make your own cosmology. Not if you want to use existing cosmologies that do not have both (or either).
If you want to run existing cosmologies you may need them both since they are already there and things are assumed to work with both of them.

4e cosmology has an Astral plane but not an Ethereal. The Ethereal appears to be mushed together with the elemental planes, however.

Dark Sun doesn't have an Astral plane and its Ethereal equivalent is quite odd compared to most other cosmologies. Never mind what Planescape and 4e tried to say about DS cosmology.

Eberron has an Astral but no Ethereal plane.

[Goth Guru]

But where do you go when the doctor puts you under with ether?

[Azothath]

either either or the other...

[W E Ray]

I don't see any problem in merging them.

But it does make sense that the Ethereal Plane -- considering the nature of the spell-effects of Ethereal Jaunt and Etherealness -- leads you to the Elemental Planes and The Shadow Plane while you can still observe The Material Plane. .... Meanwhile, The Astral Plane through its 9th Level Spell can lead you to the various Outer Planes. The gaming issue is that with Plane Shift and Gate, when the heck would one ever use Astral Projection, and thus why does it exist -- and then why does The Astral exist at all, then?

I guess you could say that the Ethereal and Astral are indeed technically the same and that the Ethereal is coexistant with the Material and Elemental Planes and, as one travels 'deeper' into the Ethereal, away from the Inner Planes and closer to the Outer Planes, the 'nature' or 'look' of the Ethereal gradually alters and takes on a more "Astral" existence or form.

. . . .

I never considered merging them when I gradually, fluidly developed my own cosmology. I use The Astral as the Transitive Plane 'above' The Material (and Elemental) Plane leading or connecting to the Upper Planes, and I use The Ethereal as the Transitive Plane 'below' The Shadow (and Elemental) Plane leading or connecting to the Lower Planes.

So for me, if The Material Plane is like a coin, the heads-up faces the Astral which leads up to the Upper Planes. And the tails-down side is The Shadow Plane facing "down" to the Ethereal. (The Elemental Planes -- and First World -- are coexistent with the "Coin" that is The Material (And Shadow) Plane. The Shadow Plane leads down to The Lower Planes.

As far as 'Neutral' Planes go, meh, I've never really liked any of them enough to separate them from Upper, Lower, or Prime Material Planes.

[Azothath]

now if you can make Spelljammer go away that might be a bonus

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

Azothath wrote:

now if you can make Spelljammer go away that might be a bonus

Current SpaceJam, I agree.

Classic Spelljammer? Hell no! Phlogiston and crsytal spheres all the way!

[Zepheri]

I see the ethereal plane and the astral plane very different, if we take in consideration the river of souls, all souls from all the material plane (all the universe not 1 planet only) go first to the astral plane in they long way to the boneyard, and most exoteric people who studies this kind of thing express that the astral plane is a manifestation of multiple minds that converts in an infinite plane of existence, now for the part of the ethereal plane is the part where the soul of some spirit wait for they reincarnation, resurrection, or be born since most of the soul that go to the material plane are born from the positive plane, in other words their is the plane for soul in waiting for the time to live in the mortal world