I think we have gotten to the point of nit-picking the table of damage types to the point of insanity.
That is the wrong take away. We want to nit-pick to the point of sanity.
It is just not possible as Paizo didn't make it clear.
Damage is going to be one type or another. It isn't going to be both.Then do you ever actually do precision damage?Yes.
And then later, no.
Fun, yeah?
So you deal precision damage from an attack. Then when calculating resistances, weaknesses, and immunities it is sometimes combined with the other damage of the attack and sometimes not. Then when it comes to applying the damage to the target it is always combined with all of the rest of the damage and you don't actually deal Precision damage to the target.
Which is the basis for my stand on this. It is the attack (or in this case, the failure effect of the attack) that specifies the damage type. And at that point, Precision damage is a fully separate damage type. It only combines and morphs into a different damage type later in the process of applying damage.
So what's different about the failure effect that causes it to not work that way? In both cases, the ability that gives you the precision damage inherits a damage type from the weapon (because that's how precision damage works).
Note that the CRB says:
precision damage is always the same type of damage as the attack it's augmenting
Which seems to undermine the notion that the damage is "morphing" between types, or that precision damage is completely discrete from other damage types. Because "precision damage is an exclusive damage type" and "precision damage is always the same type of damage" (i.e. piercing) are contradictory conclusions. Only one of these exists in the RAW though.
Why is it still precision damage 'enough' when you succeed at confident finisher but not when you fail? In both cases you're dealing 'only' piercing damage.
Confident Finisher does not list dealing 'only' precision damage when you succeed.
Let's walk through this again.
I have a short sword and a +1 STR mod. I am level 1.
Success at Confident Finisher lists 1d6+1 piercing damage and 2d6 precision damage.
So when we go to apply that, the rules for precision damage say that we keep that separate while we check for resistances and immunities to precision damage. Then we convert the precision damage to piercing damage (because that is the type of the main damage of the attack) and combine the two amounts together.
And when we apply the damage, then it is
No problems.
On a failure of Confident Finisher, the attack lists no weapon damage because the attack missed, but it lists dealing half of the Precise Strike damage - which in this case is 2d6 precision damage. But precision damage on its own wouldn't know what damage type to convert to. So Confident Finisher also specifies that it deals the same type of damage as the weapon - which in this case is Piercing damage. So the failure effect lists that it deals 2d6/2 Piercing damage.
No precision damage involved any more. The failure effect of Confident Finisher doesn't even deal Precision damage. That is my entire point. It isn't that the precision damage of the failure effect is being converted to piercing damage earlier than normal. That isn't what I am saying. It is that the ability itself specifies a different damage type for the effect than Precision damage. Precision damage is what Precise Strike deals. But Confident Finisher's failure effect deals weapon damage. Because that is literally what it says. "This damage type is that of the weapon or unarmed attack you used for the Strike."
If an effect lists that it deals cold damage, then it deals cold damage. If an effect lists that it deals piercing damage, then it deals piercing damage. And if an effect lists that it deals weapon damage, then it deals that weapon's damage type - not Precision damage that gets morphed into the weapon's damage type.
So if you are going to debate against my stand on this, at least debate against the actual mechanics I am proposing.
Precision damage is what Precise Strike deals. But Confident Finisher's failure effect deals weapon damage. Because that is literally what it says.
But again, per the CRB, precision damage always works like that (always is the exact word the CRB uses).
I guess that's where I'm having trouble understanding, because people keep saying "the ability does the weapon's damage instead" as if this is something unique or revelatory, but that's just how precision damage works.
If there was zero ambiguity at all and the developers were entirely clear that the ability was meant to do precision damage... you'd still expect it to do piercing (or etc) damage anyways. So referencing that you do piercing damage just doesn't seem to matter for this debate at all, since that is the expected outcome for every interpretation.
the rules for precision damage say that we keep that separate while we check for resistances and immunities to precision damage.
The rules don't, though. Ideas being referenced like "keep separate" or "morphing" do not exist in RAW. In fact, the only time the word 'separate' is used is to tell us that we don't track precision damage separately.
So if you are going to debate against my stand on this
It's less debating your stand and more trying to just get to the bottom of the thought process. Ultimately I think this is a ruling with little consequence to it, I'm just trying to better understand how certain assumptions and assertions are being reached.
Then we convert the precision damage to piercing damage (because that is the type of the main damage of the attack) and combine the two amounts together.
This seems to be a recurring point. Precision damage does not use the word convert or morph or anything at all that requires it to stop being Precision damage. I have demonstrated multiple examples of damage types that can coexist and you have provided no concrete evidence that an instance of damage must have one and only one type.
On a failure of Confident Finisher, the attack lists no weapon damage because the attack missed, but it lists dealing half of the Precise Strike damage - which in this case is 2d6 precision damage. But precision damage on its own wouldn't know what damage type to convert to. So Confident Finisher also specifies that it deals the same type of damage as the weapon - which in this case is Piercing damage. So the failure effect lists that it deals 2d6/2 Piercing damage.
We discussed this before. The failure effect on Finisher traits shares common language with the failure effect on Press traits. It appears it is standard for failure effects to identify a damage type. This specification occurs even when Precision damage is not in play which clearly shows us that the intent of the line "This damage type is that of the weapon or unarmed attack you used for the Strike" is not to address Precision damage specifically. It is compatible with Precision damage because Precision damage has its own rules about augmenting an attack.
If an effect lists that it deals cold damage, then it deals cold damage. If an effect lists that it deals piercing damage, then it deals piercing damage. And if an effect lists that it deals weapon damage, then it deals that weapon's damage type - not Precision damage that gets morphed into the weapon's damage type.
Can you cite a rule to support this? I can cite a rule that shows us how Precision damage can augment an attack of weapon damage.
Does all of this come from the assumption that damage can have one and only one type? Or zero, in the case of disintegrate? I see no general rule requiring this and even if there were, we have guidance that specific takes precedence of general anyway.