I am trying to put together a Switch-Hitting Paladin build.
Now whenever I have looked into playing a Switch Hitting character, it has never worked; it always feels clunky. One side or another is significantly weaker.
That is why when I saw the Mind Sword
At 2nd level, a mind sword can make a telekinetic attack with a melee weapon. This functions as the hand of the apprentice universalist wizard school ability, but any calculations of that ability based on Intelligence are instead based on Charisma. At 6th level, a mind sword can expend two uses of this ability as a full-round action to attack the same opponent multiple times, as if using the full-attack action. At 12th level, a mind sword can expend one use of this ability as a full-round action to combine melee attacks and ranged attacks aimed at different targets within 60 feet as part of a single full-attack action.
With its Mind Arsenal ability AKA Telekinetic attack, I had hope it could work. By focusing solely on one weapon, selecting feats is a lot easier, as now for example Weapon Focus X works for both melee and ranged.
My first conundrum is whether or not to stack Mind Sword with Tempered Champion? This provides Fighter feats that work in both melee and ranged attacks.
My first thought regarding what weapon to select was to play as a Paladin of Sarenrae and use her Scimitar (Improved Critical becoming another feat).
What do people think? Is this a crazy idea or does it have some merit?
Ask yourself what those feats are giving you relative to what you’re giving up.
To get a meaningful set of attack/damage bonuses, you’d have to wait until level 16. Divine Power via Unsanctioned Knowledge gives you a far better set of bonuses—and a bonus attack.
Disruptive is situational at best, while Weapon Trick requires you to invest in even more feats to be viable. Divine Fighting Technique, which you could’ve taken anyways, provides a benefit you already had (Paladins can make their weapons Merciful), and requires you to get another feat for the advanced benefit (whose value relative to the investment, 1s6 or 2d6 healing 1/round at level 10, is questionable).
At the end of the day, I would tell anyone that flavor is the most important thing for your character concept, but if you’re asking about mechanics, it feels like you’re giving up a lot and not getting as much in return.
Tbh, I don't see any actual rules violations with this, because the Tempered Champion and Mind Sword archetypes are not "technically" changing, modifying, or replacing different class abilities, even though they really are. Lay on Hands is getting modified in both archetypes, as well as spellcasting in both archetypes, but at the bottom of each ability in each archetype is replacing different class features.
Mind Sword
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Mind swords merge psychic and divine power, probing and cleansing minds while their telekinetic blades cleave demonic flesh.
Mind Arsenal (Su)At 2nd level, a mind sword can make a telekinetic attack with a melee weapon. This functions as the hand of the apprentice universalist wizard school ability, but any calculations of that ability based on Intelligence are instead based on Charisma. At 6th level, a mind sword can expend two uses of this ability as a full-round action to attack the same opponent multiple times, as if using the full-attack action. At 12th level, a mind sword can expend one use of this ability as a full-round action to combine melee attacks and ranged attacks aimed at different targets within 60 feet as part of a single full-attack action.
This ability replaces lay on hands.
Touch Treatment (Su)
At 3rd level, a mind sword can expend one use of her mind arsenal ability to remove minor harmful mental conditions, as per the mesmerist touch treatment class feature.
At 9th level, she can remove moderate conditions, and at 15th level, she can remove major conditions.
This ability replaces mercy.
Spells
A mind sword adds the following psychic spells to her paladin spell list at the listed spell levels:
1st—detect psychic significance, mage hand, telekinetic projectile, thought shield I
2nd—apport object, enshroud thoughts, mental barrier I, thought shield II
3rd—intellect fortress I, mental barrier II, telekinetic maneuver, thought shield III
4th—intellect fortress II, telekinesis, thought shield IV, thoughtsense, tower of iron will I
The mind sword can prepare and cast these psychic spells as divine paladin spells. However, the mind sword cannot use these spells for item creation, including making potions or scrolls of these spells.
This ability replaces channel positive energy.
Divine Weapon Specialization (Ex)
At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a tempered champion gains a bonus feat from the following list:
Disruptive, Divine Fighting Technique, Greater Penetrating Strike, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Penetrating Strike, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Weapon Trick.
If a feat requires choosing a weapon or weapon group, the tempered champion must choose her deity’s favored weapon, or its group. The tempered champion must meet the feat’s prerequisites, but treats her tempered champion levels as fighter levels for this purpose.
In addition, the 4th-level tempered champion gains the increased base weapon damage of the warpriest’s sacred weapon ability at her tempered champion level.
This ability replaces spellcasting.
Divine Bond (Su)
At 5th level, a tempered champion must select a weapon for her divine bond. If she is out of daily uses, she can expend a use of lay on hands to activate this ability.
Personally, I would allow this, because per RAW there are no actual violations here. However with that being said, your GM might not agree. I would consult your GM and make sure this is all kosher with them, because these two archetypes ARE indeed modifying spellcasting as well as lay on hands. But, like I said, I'd allow it, but your GM may feel differently.
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Next thing, to what end are we going here? What weapon did you have in mind, and do you have a build concept and/or playstyle concept that you're specifically looking for? Is there a specific reason that you're choosing to do this rather than just building a fighter who has a ton of feats and class features who could do the same equal concept, if not better? The reason why I ask is because "switch-hitting" can be done with other classes that might be more beneficial to the concept/playstyle you're looking for. So gimme the deets, and we can help you accomplish what you're looking for.
After lay on hands, mercies, channel positive energy, and spellcasting have been removed/modified, you're left with aura of good, detect evil, smite evil, divine grace, aura of courage, divine health, aura of resolve, aura of justice, aura of faith, aura of righteousness, and holy champion. Tbh, if you're looking to do a ranged playstyle, most of these class features are not going to benefit your party as much as you might think because you're not in the fray with a ranged build, so your auras are only going to function while you're very close to your ranged compatriots. Smite Evil and Aura of Justice are some of the best buffs in the entire game tho, and the rest of the paladin class chassis is pretty darn good too so if that's what you're after then I completely understand.
TLDR: What's the endgame goal here? Tell me what/how/why you'd like to build a character like this. What's the playstyle you're looking for? Because "switch-hitting" can be done with a myriad of classes and build concepts, especially if you consider the multi-classing potential here. Why are you choosing the notoriously feat-starved paladin class as a chassis to accomplish this when rogues, slayers, brawlers, fighters, or possibly even monk might do it better.
Next thing, to what end are we going here? What weapon did you have in mind, and do you have a build concept and/or playstyle concept that you're specifically looking for? Is there a specific reason that you're choosing to do this rather than just building a fighter who has a ton of feats and class features who could do the same equal concept, if not better? The reason why I ask is because "switch-hitting" can be done with other classes that might be more beneficial to the concept/playstyle you're looking for. So gimme the deets, and we can help you accomplish what you're looking for.
I chose this solely for the Mind Sword ability. Fighting in melee and at range with the same weapon is the important part for me.
Switch between bow and sword doesn't work for me, it is always clunky.
This build does benefit greatly from Elephant in the Room Rules, so deadly Aim and Power Attack are not needed
You need a specific allowance to do that, mainly that the ability can be modified as normal. For example the Eldritch Scion Magus explicitly states that its Eldritch Pool can be modified as if it were Arcane Pool.
I honestly do not know what Mind Sword thing you think can benefit from Lay ob Hands/Channel Energy/Spellcasting feats
As for making it work. First think about what kind of weapon you want to use, that will help to greatly narrow down your choices.
As stated in my opening post:
My first thought regarding what weapon to select was to play as a Paladin of Sarenrae and use her Scimitar (Improved Critical becoming another feat).
Second, grab Opening Volley that makes it so you can make a ranged attack, then 5-step into a melee attack and only suffer -1 MAP.
The Mind Sword can do that anyway:
At 2nd level, a mind sword can make a telekinetic attack with a melee weapon. This functions as the hand of the apprentice universalist wizard school ability, but any calculations of that ability based on Intelligence are instead based on Charisma. At 6th level, a mind sword can expend two uses of this ability as a full-round action to attack the same opponent multiple times, as if using the full-attack action. At 12th level, a mind sword can expend one use of this ability as a full-round action to combine melee attacks and ranged attacks aimed at different targets within 60 feet as part of a single full-attack action.
Most importantly 4th, accept that there is always a trade off. The best most balanced switch hitter requires very specific feats (Starknife, Throw Anything, Elven Battle, etc) or a very specific class (Kineticist, Warlock Vigilante, etc.).
Yes it does, and why I have never enjoyed them. My initial thought about the Mind Sword is that
With its Mind Arsenal ability AKA Telekinetic attack, I had hope it could work. By focusing solely on one weapon, selecting feats is a lot easier, as now for example Weapon Focus X works for both melee and ranged.
OUTLINE
Race: Human
Class: Paladin
Archetypes: Mind Sword
Stats
Str: 17
Dex: 12
Cons: 12
Int: 13
Wis: 8
Cha: 17
ATTRIBUTE INCREASES
4,12, 16 - STR
8 - CHA
20 - INT
TRAITS
Reckless (Combat)
Extremely Fashionable
FEATS
Level 1 - Paladin - Level - Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Level 1 - Human - Bonus - Improved Feint
Level 3 - Paladin - Level - Swordplay Style
Level 5 - Paladin - Level - Two-Handed Thrower
Level 7 - Paladin - Level - Swordplay Upset
Level 9 - Paladin - Level - Swordplay Deflection
Level 11 - Paladin - Level - Improved Critical
Level 13 - Paladin - Level - Unsanctioned Knowledge
*With Elephant in the Room, Deadly Aim, Power Attack, and Combat Expertise are not needed
Those two archetype do not stack because even if not stated you are modifying what spells you have with one, while replacing spells with another.
This. Also the Mind Sword replaces LoH, while the Tempered Champion changes how you can use LoH. Would it be unbalanced to allow them to stack? Probably not. If your GM is fine with it then go ahead, but its technically illegal.
Regarding the Switch Hitter idea, Why not just play a DEX-based Paladin and carry a Composite Longbow? You don't even need to be especially good with the bow, since either the enemies aren't that big a problem or the enemies ARE a problem and you Smite. Regardless of the feats you have invested, a +4 to hit and +11 to damage is going to make you relevant to the combat. You can also use your Divine Bond to add axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful or speed to your weapon, so there's bound to be something useful there.
If you want to invest more than that then that's absolutely fine. I'm not going to tell you you're doing it wrong by trying to make your build work. I just thought its worth knowing that the Paladin has some pretty great tools for this kind of thing already. Also if you haven't seen it, the DIVINE HUNTER gives bonuses to a ranged Paladin and their allies. I don't usually think all that much of this archetype, but it actually might help make a Switch Hitter work better.
What do people think? Is this a crazy idea or does it have some merit?
By using your Charisma mod for the Mind Arsenal ability, you get an untyped bonus to Attack equal to your charisma twice when you smite. So when you're smiting your ranged attacks will have lower accuracy than the melee attacks. And the range of the ability is quite low (30 ft before lv 12) and it costs two uses to full-attack the same foe (which you always want to do). You'll bleed uses per day rapidly if you try to rely on it.
If you're serious about it then I'd dip a level into Swashbuckler and take Artful Dodge so that you can qualify for TWF feats with charisma. Then grab a double weapon so that you can TWF-shred at range with the Mind Arsenal ability (which is limited to one weapon).
Divine Favor should help you with the accuracy. Add in Eldritch Heritage (Orc) with that +2 rounds morale trait and you're good to go.
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Now whenever I have looked into playing a Switch Hitting character, it has never worked; it always feels clunky. One side or another is significantly weaker.
That is why when I saw the Mind Sword
If Mind Sword fulfills your criteria for a switch hitter, then any ranged build that can fire/reload without AoO is also a switch hitter, no? If switch hitting doesn't involve switching weapon then that seems pretty easy to manage.
The weapon thing was about the fact that depending on the weapon you choose it becomes easier. Mind Sword does not make it so melee feats apply at range and vice versa. This means some weapons (ex: Starknife) are better supported for this. While yes weapon focus will apply and you will have power attack/deadly aim cause of the house rule, neither swordplay style or improved feint will apply for range (both are melee). Also you will want Quick Draw for sort of obvious reasons.
I never said melee feats apply at distance. I was saying that by focusing on one weapon feats can work doubly so as they apply themselves regardless of the situation; Weapon Focus and Improved Critical being my two examples.
Swordplay does work because at level 12 you can Mind Arsenal melee and ranged attacks. It is also synergistic. Stay away and I will fight from there. Come close and I will tank with a High AC and Mental Barrier Spells
Why do you need Quick Draw? You are not doing Blinkback Belt shenanigans.
If Mind Sword fulfills your criteria for a switch hitter, then any ranged build that can fire/reload without AoO is also a switch hitter, no? If switch hitting doesn't involve switching weapon then that seems pretty easy to manage.
Also yes, if switch hitting doesn't require changing weapon it can be accomplished with Empty Quiver Style, any thrown weapon, sharding weapon quality, telekinetic blast, etc. Mind Arsenal is a way to do it with a non-standard weapon and no money expent, in this case scimitar.
Yes that is very true, and never liked them. Empty Quiver feels cringey (Legolas much?) Returning Weapons always require some drawing weapon shenanigans, and the Star Knife I find difficult to get my head around playing with.
Untyped bonuses equal to an atribute bonus do not stack as per FAQ.
Whoops, I managed to delete my "Which means they don't stack" sentence. Thanks for clarifying.
Quick draw for the 1-h and 2-h throwing. As the feat you have says with Quick Draw you can full attack with 2-h thrown weapon. Also is your goal not to be a good switch hitter? That allows you to pull up a back up if your weapon gets stuck/caught for some reason.
Mind Arsenal lets you full attack anyway, I dont think Quick Draw is needed.