So, with swashbuckler, using Tumble Through, you can tumble past an enemy (and thus gain panache) midmovement. This immediately ups your move speed. Do you get to use that additional movement on the triggering tumble through action to travel a little further?
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As far as I know, that is undefined.
I use the rules for Gaining and Losing Actions as a basis for my ruling on the matter. If you gain or lose movement speed mid-movement, the change only takes effect after that movement action is done.
Yeah, I agree with breithauptclan, but there were some pretty lengthy debates about it after the class came out, and there are GMs who rule that it does take effect during the move. Best option is to ask your GM, and if you're playing PFS, to expect table variation.
Sanityfaerie wrote: So, with swashbuckler, using Tumble Through, you can tumble past an enemy (and thus gain panache) midmovement. This immediately ups your move speed. Do you get to use that additional movement on the triggering tumble through action to travel a little further? I always rule yes because of the way Stride is written: You move "up to your speed". So it's calculated in real time and as such if your speed changes during movement it affects this Stride. In my opinion, it's the closest to RAW.
It's also much more logical in the other way around: If you lose movement in the middle of a Stride, I'd find that absolutely illogical to continue your move as if nothing happened.
I rule you can't ( as the tumble through outcome is undefined until the character approaches the enemy and roll for it).
I have the feel their intent was to make it work with tumble through ( starting with no panache ), but they would need to tweek vivacious speed description adding something to make it ok mechanically speaking.
Currently is:
- select move action
- select the speed you intend to use
- roll for tt once you are next the enemy
- if you succeed you pass through ( and get panache, empowering vivacious speed). If you don't you stop.
Afaik, there's no single ability ( apart the currently broken skill feat that let you tt twice, but even that does not increase your speed during a move action) that allows you to get extra status/circ speed during a move with an already declared movement speed value.
HumbleGamer wrote: I rule you can't ( as the tumble through outcome is undefined until the character approaches the enemy and roll for it).
I have the feel their intent was to make it work with tumble through ( starting with no panache ), but they would need to tweek vivacious speed description adding something to make it ok mechanically speaking.
Currently is:
- select move action
- select the speed you intend to use
- roll for tt once you are next the enemy
- if you succeed you pass through ( and get panache, empowering vivacious speed). If you don't you stop.
Afaik, there's no single ability ( apart the currently broken skill feat that let you tt twice, but even that does not increase your speed during a move action) that allows you to get extra status/circ speed during a move with an already declared movement speed value.
i don't get where you see the step "select the speed you intent to use".
the rulebook has those two passages for movement in encounters:
Quote: When the rules refer to a “movement cost” or “spending movement,” they are describing how many feet of your Speed you must use to move from one point to another. Normally, movement costs 5 feet per square when you’re moving on a grid, or it costs the number of feet you move if you’re not using a grid. However, sometimes it’s harder to move a certain distance due to difficult terrain (page 475) or other factors. In such a case, you might have to spend a different amount of movement to move from one place to another. For example, a form of movement might require 10 feet of movement to move 1 square, and moving through some types of terrain costs an extra 5 feet of movement per square. Quote: If an encounter involves combat, it’s often a good idea to track the movement and relative position of the participants using a Pathfinder Flip-Mat, Flip-Tiles, or some other form of grid to display the terrain, and miniatures to represent the combatants. When a character moves on a grid, every 1-inch square of the play area is 5 feet across in the game world. Hence, a creature moving in a straight line spends 5 feet of its movement for every map square traveled.
Because moving diagonally covers more ground, you count that movement differently. The first square of diagonal movement you make in a turn counts as 5 feet, but the second counts as 10 feet, and your count thereafter alternates between the two. For example, as you move across 4 squares diagonally, you would count 5 feet, then 10, then 5, and then 10, for a total of 30 feet. You track your total diagonal movement across all your movement during your turn, but reset your count at the end of your turn.
in both cases, the rules talk with moving a single square at a time and nowhere is there to be found that you need to declare the exact amount of speed you will be using in a single move action.
furthermore, the bolded part speaks about tracking each diagonal IN A TURN as a continuous thing. So, it's not even per action but per full turn that you count and use you movement points. Indicating that there is fluidity of movement within the turn.
There is fluidity but you can't modify your speed during a move action.
The point was just that you start with a move action ( up to X which is equals to your current movement speed ).
If during the movement you end up gaining panache, enhancing your speed, you don't get it modified for the ongoing action ( it's the rule breithauptclan linked).
HumbleGamer wrote: - select move action
- select the speed you intend to use
That's definitely not how I've seen movement being done and I'm pretty sure it's completely against RAI. You don't state how many squares you will move before moving and deal with it if you made a mistake or if something unexpected modifies where or how you want to move. You move and only stop your movement when you want or if you reach your speed (and as such modifications to your speed apply in real time).
HumbleGamer wrote: ( it's the rule breithauptclan linked).
Breithauptclan didn't link any applicable rule. They were making an RAI call using the rules for actions as an inspiration.
You don't have to state how much you move.
You just have to take a move action, that works depends your current movement speed.
For example, a move action like reflexive tumble ( swashbuckler class) requires the swashbuckler to stride up MAX to half their movement speed.
The mobile finisher explicitly points that you are not limited to stride, buy that you
can choose a different movement type, if you have one.
And that's it.
You declare a tt without panache? Your limit is your base speed + half vivacious speed bonuses.
You declare tt with panache? Your limit is your base speed + full vivacious speed bonuses.
It's kinda straightforward to me ( or to say it better, it's simpler and less clunky than adding speed during an action, reason I think it this would have been the situation, being unique for the class afaik, they would have obviously pointed out it in the descriptions or errata).
HumbleGamer wrote: It's kinda straightforward to me ( or to say it better, it's simpler and less clunky than adding speed during an action, reason I think it this would have been the situation, being unique for the class afaik, they would have obviously pointed out it in the descriptions or errata). But I don't think OP's question was "What seems most straightforward" :)
HumbleGamer wrote: You don't have to state how much you move.
You just have to take a move action, that works depends your current movement speed.
For example, a move action like reflexive tumble ( swashbuckler class) requires the swashbuckler to stride up MAX to half their movement speed.
The mobile finisher explicitly points that you are not limited to stride, buy that you
can choose a different movement type, if you have one.
And that's it.
You declare a tt without panache? Your limit is your base speed + half vivacious speed bonuses.
You declare tt with panache? Your limit is your base speed + full vivacious speed bonuses.
It's kinda straightforward to me ( or to say it better, it's simpler and less clunky than adding speed during an action, reason I think it this would have been the situation, being unique for the class afaik, they would have obviously pointed out it in the descriptions or errata).
I disagree.
The way I read it, you declare the action and start moving square by square.
A lot more straightforward and takes into account stuff that happen naturally, like stepping into a difficult terrain square that you didn't know it was one, or turning the corner and walking back, or (as is in this case) your maximum changing.
As an example, you walk through a corner, and someone had readied an attack with a frost bomb when they see you, your speed changes and suddenly you are left there because no speed left.
SuperBidi wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: It's kinda straightforward to me ( or to say it better, it's simpler and less clunky than adding speed during an action, reason I think it this would have been the situation, being unique for the class afaik, they would have obviously pointed out it in the descriptions or errata). But I don't think OP's question was "What seems most straightforward" :) More straightforwards stands for more easy.
It's undeniable that there's nothing easier than "I use a move skill and can move up to X".
Obviously I concede that if you think that in the middle of a movement skill a character might receive a boost to their speed that would affect the current move action, then we can only agree to disagree.
@shroudb: I agree it's always square by square.
I just disagree that the max speed you can move with a specific move action might be enhanced in the middle of that move action.
SuperBidi wrote: It's also much more logical in the other way around: If you lose movement in the middle of a Stride, I'd find that absolutely illogical to continue your move as if nothing happened. Well, the same can be said about being slowed in the middle of your turn and continuing to use your actions for the round as if nothing happened.
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breithauptclan wrote: SuperBidi wrote: It's also much more logical in the other way around: If you lose movement in the middle of a Stride, I'd find that absolutely illogical to continue your move as if nothing happened. Well, the same can be said about being slowed in the middle of your turn and continuing to use your actions for the round as if nothing happened. Not an argument. Slowed (and Stunned) rules being illogical doesn't imply that Stride rules have to be illogical.
SuperBidi wrote: Not an argument. Slowed (and Stunned) rules being illogical doesn't imply that Stride rules have to be illogical. The slowed rule isn't illogical. It doesn't match with an expectation of reality.
From a game mechanics perspective it is very logical to have the rules run that way. It prevents a bunch of edge cases and the headaches that come along with it.
So just because the mechanics don't match your expectations of reality doesn't mean that it isn't the way the rules should be written and interpreted as in order to play the game smoothly.
Feels like a yes. There is nothing to suggest a stride or any sort of movement action has to be declared and locked in when it starts. As there is no rule stating penalties take place immediately and bonuses take place next action, it looks like movement speed updates in real time. Movement is much more likely to trigger reactions or otherwise introduce new information than other action types. There are numerous examples of things that can modify or interrupt a movement after it has begun. In the specific case of gaining or losing entire actions we have a rule, but the absence of any similar rule for movement speed suggests it operates differently.
In the specific case of Swashbucklers Tumbling Through, it feels balanced to allow it. It may even be a deliberate boost to offset the difficult terrain aspect of tumbling. Would not mind a bit more clarity in the Rules As Written.
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