Something weird happened in my PF2e game, and I was wondering:
My Sorcerer cast a Burning Hands at a swarm of spiders. The Swarm rolled a Critical Success on its Reflex save!! So it took... no damage from the spell!
Why does this feels wrong? How could swarm of many many spiders ALL able to avoir an AoE spell like this?
Seems to me a swarm should not be able to avoid an AoE spell like that... am I missing something? Perhaps a Swarm should always have a save result ONE step lower vs AoE spells, thus making critical success impossible?
Thoughts/ideas?
TOS
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Hi! Hmmm, I dunno, I can picture the swarm of spiders scurrying below the embers just fine... I don't see how a swarm may be, what, more engulfable by the effect than a horse. Is that what you're having a hard time imagining?
If you're really hang up on this and you are the GM, imo lowering a whole step for save effects versus AoE spells does sound kinda powerful. I'd suggest having the spell trigger its area weakness as untyped damage.
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Swarms are abstractions to allow a great number of small creatures to be effective together but this won't reflect the game reality perfectly. Maybe the terrain, spiders ability, and some mistakes made during your sorcerer spellcasting made just too few spiders being affect to a point that doesn't made any significant difference to the swarm at all.
Even in really rarely but sometimes some absurd and unexpected things happen. Maybe a curved stone can be reflected the fire spray in a way that deflected it from the swarm entirely.
Hi! Hmmm, I dunno, I can picture the swarm of spiders scurrying below the embers just fine... I don't see how a swarm may be, what, more engulfable by the effect than a horse. Is that what you're having a hard time imagining?
A swarm is defined as mass (or cloud) of creatures that functions as one monster. So on a Crititcal success, all the individuals were able to independently avoid the effect of the spell. This is not a Horse. This is a ton of individual creatures.
PF1e defines it as <<A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures>>. So 300 spiders.
So yeah I can imagine an "explanation" on a critical save:
<<<As the fire bears down on the swarm of spiders, every single one of them scurry left/right/underground just before the flames hit, thus avoiding being engulfed by the deadly fire that burned down everything around them.>>>
But that sure feels wrong to me!
TOS
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<<<As the fire bears down on the swarm of spiders, every single one of them scurry left/right/underground just before the flames hit, thus avoiding being engulfed by the deadly fire that burned down everything around them.>>>
"As you throw out a hasty gout of flames, the spiders are already moving, flowing around the sudden spike in temperature. A few at the edges are caught, but it isn't enough to make a dent in their numbers."
"With more practice against larger targets and avoiding setting the building alight, your spell is poorly aimed to incinerate the swarm, and they are able to avoid the magic."
Or, suppose the swarm has already taken damage. "You expel flames at the mass of spiders, but after they pass, the swarm seems undiminished. The bodies of those already crushed are neatly incinerated, however."
Or something else along similar lines. It doesn't have to be literally three hundred spiders all entirely avoiding all harm- it just isn't enough to register on their hitpoints. And it's even easier to explain in the player's seat than the GM's- you panicked trying to blast the spiders, or something threw off your aim.
Hi! Hmmm, I dunno, I can picture the swarm of spiders scurrying below the embers just fine... I don't see how a swarm may be, what, more engulfable by the effect than a horse. Is that what you're having a hard time imagining?A swarm is defined as mass (or cloud) of creatures that functions as one monster. So on a Crititcal success, all the individuals were able to independently avoid the effect of the spell. This is not a Horse. This is a ton of individual creatures.
PF1e defines it as <<A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures>>. So 300 spiders.
So yeah I can imagine an "explanation" on a critical save:
<<<As the fire bears down on the swarm of spiders, every single one of them scurry left/right/underground just before the flames hit, thus avoiding being engulfed by the deadly fire that burned down everything around them.>>>But that sure feels wrong to me!
TOS
This isn't PF1E and the entity is treated as a mass, not a ton of individuals. There is no guideline on the number of individuals because it doesn't matter and can vary, you can't target individuals and they typically lack stats. You certainly aren't chewing through a bunch of tiny HP pools representing concrete numbers of individuals killed, that's not how swarms are designed. I'd say the mechanics in this case are fine and a different way of thinking about it is what's needed, that's all.
Hmm. They already have weakness to area and splash damage. I suppose they could also pick up a new negative trait that lowers the result of saves against area effect spells by one degree. Might need to do that instead of weakness rather than in addition to weakness. Or do we just want to downgrade critical successes to normal successes, without affecting any other results? Really, it just needs to be whatever houserule you like most. Sometimes crits happen. I do not think you are going to find overwhelming support for saying enemies should never crit. Personally, I think weakness to area and splash is more relevant (easier exploited by PCs) than denying them a crit save.
We could start getting into whatever visualization of Burning Hands leads you to believe it cannot be avoided by tiny creatures. Do you think it fills the entirety of a 15 ft cone, every last cubic inch with no gap or variation? Really, we are overlooking something remarkable here. Those spiders, all 300 of them, did a fantastic job dodging that spell. Lets give them a hand! Anyway, I hope this helps you come to terms with your feelings about this spider swarm.
Having the sorcerer get bitten and screw up the casting of the spell is my preferred solution. Maybe they had a spasm in their hand and aimed too high. I once had a NPC monk critically succeed on a single target spell, so instead of just saying it landed but he resisted I said the monk kicked a piece of rubble at the PC caster which disrupted the spell.
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To some extent, the idea of a critical success against an area spell doesn't make sense in general. If someone casts a spell that completely engulfs an area in fire or electricity or whatever, the idea that you can completely avoid the spell without leaving the area it already completely fills is a bit silly.
I'm not sure what's really unique about the swarm in this case. It's not like it makes more sense if it's a wolf or a human standing there instead.
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<<<As the fire bears down on the swarm of spiders, every single one of them scurry left/right/underground just before the flames hit, thus avoiding being engulfed by the deadly fire that burned down everything around them.>>>"As you throw out a hasty gout of flames, the spiders are already moving, flowing around the sudden spike in temperature. A few at the edges are caught, but it isn't enough to make a dent in their numbers."
"With more practice against larger targets and avoiding setting the building alight, your spell is poorly aimed to incinerate the swarm, and they are able to avoid the magic."
Or, suppose the swarm has already taken damage. "You expel flames at the mass of spiders, but after they pass, the swarm seems undiminished. The bodies of those already crushed are neatly incinerated, however."
Or something else along similar lines. It doesn't have to be literally three hundred spiders all entirely avoiding all harm- it just isn't enough to register on their hitpoints. And it's even easier to explain in the player's seat than the GM's- you panicked trying to blast the spiders, or something threw off your aim.
This. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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It's an abstraction, not a simulation.
There are many ways to describe it, but kost importantly remember that everyone is moving at once. It can be as simple as the caster tries to sweep them and is ineffectual at doing so.
Nor does every hp equal one dead creature, maybe they kill 20 or 50 spiders... but not enough to matter in the scheme of things.
But again, the save is a gameplay abstraction.
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To some extent, the idea of a critical success against an area spell doesn't make sense in general.
Whereas I see that completely avoiding damage is one of the four expected outcomes and thereby determine the affected area is probably not a solid cube of magical effects.
Yeah I just figure a Fireball's area of effect isn't even or easily controllable. It's probably uncomfy or even a minor burn that occurs when someone crit successes, they just manage to find a pocket or ablate it enough with a good maneuver.