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Does anyone know how to say "you are only making yourself look stupid, you should be quiet now" in a way that is within the forum rules? Asking for a friend.
It wouldn't help. People who grew up playing D&D grew numb to looking stupid.
Does anyone know how to say "you are only making yourself look stupid, you should be quiet now" in a way that is within the forum rules? Asking for a friend.It wouldn't help. People who grew up playing D&D grew numb to looking stupid.
He was talking about you.
You can't just add spell descriptors to whatever you feel should have that descriptor because of a general rule.
That spell targets an object, and Mind-Affecting Spells can only affect creatures with 1 Int or higher. An object has an Int score of "-". That's why they dropped the [Mind-affecting] descriptor for this particular spell. It breaks the rule of "all patterns must be mind-affecting."
He was talking about you.Does anyone know how to say "you are only making yourself look stupid, you should be quiet now" in a way that is within the forum rules? Asking for a friend.It wouldn't help. People who grew up playing D&D grew numb to looking stupid.
Maybe... But then I'm not the one making two separate posts every time I post, so maybe not...
Mind-Affecting
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.
All enchantments, illusion (patterns), and illusion (phantasms) are mind-affecting.
See Magic for additional details.
^----- Look. They break both of these general rules with the same spell.
Maybe... But then I'm not the one making two separate posts every time I post, so maybe not...He was talking about you.Does anyone know how to say "you are only making yourself look stupid, you should be quiet now" in a way that is within the forum rules? Asking for a friend.It wouldn't help. People who grew up playing D&D grew numb to looking stupid.
That's because we're posting back and forth to each other at neck-break speeds. It would be easy to make single posts at a time if we were posting 1+ hour apart.
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He was talking about you.Does anyone know how to say "you are only making yourself look stupid, you should be quiet now" in a way that is within the forum rules? Asking for a friend.It wouldn't help. People who grew up playing D&D grew numb to looking stupid.
Ryze, please refrain from attempting to speak for me.
That's because we're posting back and forth to each other at neck-break speeds. It would be easy to make single posts at a time if we were posting 1+ hour apart.
You can go back and count... You've been double posting at me over and over in this thread. Everyone does it once or twice. It happens. But you've made a bad habit of it, bud. It's not making you come off as calm and collected.
That's because we're posting back and forth to each other at neck-break speeds. It would be easy to make single posts at a time if we were posting 1+ hour apart.You can go back and count... You've been double posting at me over and over in this thread. Everyone does it once or twice. It happens. But you've made a bad habit of it, bud. It's not making you come off as calm and collected.
That's because I'm not calm and collected. You can't be overtly rude saying stuff like "Dude. Just Stop." "You're blatantly wrong" and "you're embarrassing yourself" and then expect me to just be like "oh yeah, this disrespect is just peachy, lemme just make a polite rebuttal." If you want to get down in the mud and start flinging crap my way, you can expect artillery fire from me every time. I was perfectly respectful before you said that.
"oh yeah, this disrespect is just peachy, lemme just make a polite rebuttal."
Umm. I did exactly that. Did you not see my clever reply to what Java said? Didn't matter if he was talking about you, me or both of us. I nailed that one.
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"oh yeah, this disrespect is just peachy, lemme just make a polite rebuttal."Umm. I did exactly that. Did you not see my clever reply to what Java said? Didn't matter if he was talking about you, me or both of us. I nailed that one.
Want to re-start this conversation politely? I'm down if you're down.
Okay, I'll start.
Mind-Affecting
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.
All enchantments, illusion (patterns), and illusion (phantasms) are mind-affecting.
See Magic for additional details.
Dazzling Blade will break one of these two bolded rules whether it's a Mind-affecting spell or whether it's not a Mind-affecting spell.
If it is not a mind-affecting spell, then it breaks this rule: "All enchantments, illusion (patterns), and illusion (phantasms) are mind-affecting."
If it is a mind-affecting spell, then it breaks this rule: "A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher."
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It is not possible for this spell to be in compliance with the general rules one way or another, and it's because it's a Pattern spell that targets an object. Frankly, they should've made this spell a Glamer spell.
Being polite is always a good idea.
Regardless, I'm afraid it's pretty clear that we aren't going to agree on this subject, and I doubt anything short of a developer response could resolve it at this time. Thankfully, this spell is rather uncommon in the wild.
Since it's gotten really off topic, I'm going to withdraw from the thread, unless specifically summoned. Maybe others can pick it up.
I will offer up the compromise-kludge interpretation I pulled from somewhere unmentionable that allows me to make sense of this poorly written spell.
Since the spell targets an object it cannot have the [mind effecting] descriptor. But patterns are mind effecting so the spell effect radiating from the weapon (or bursting off of it) is mind effecting. So enemies with the appropriate immunity are not subject to the bluff or disarm bonuses or the blinding flash.
Not claiming this is what is written or intended, just how I'd run it.
Okay, I'll start.
Mind-Affecting
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.
All enchantments, illusion (patterns), and illusion (phantasms) are mind-affecting.
See Magic for additional details.
Dazzling Blade will break one of these two bolded rules whether it's a Mind-affecting spell or whether it's not a Mind-affecting spell.
If it is not a mind-affecting spell, then it breaks this rule: "All enchantments, illusion (patterns), and illusion (phantasms) are mind-affecting."
If it is a mind-affecting spell, then it breaks this rule: "A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher."
==================================
It is not possible for this spell to be in compliance with the general rules one way or another, and it's because it's a Pattern spell that targets an object. Frankly, they should've made this spell a Glamer spell.
If you think the lack of the [mind-affecting] descriptor suddenly makes the spell no longer mind-affecting then I guess all of these spells must not be mind-affecting in your book.... despite the fact that the rules very clearly state they are and no specific exception is made in all but one of them.
Alluring Light - Enchantment(Compulsion)
Apparent Master - Enchantment
Bestow Insight - Enchantment
Bite the Hand & Bite the Hand, Mass - Enchantment(Compulsion)
Bungle - Enchantment(Compulsion)
Business Booms - Enchantment
Compelling Rant - Enchantemnt(Charm)
Covetous Urge - Enchantment(Compulsion)[Curse, Language-dependent]
Curse of Keeping - Enchantment(Compulsion)[Curse]
Delay Pain - Enchantment[Emotion]
Draconic Malice - Enchantment[Draconic] <- This one is actually explicitly not mind-affecting
Foster Hatred - Enchantment(Compulsion)[Emotion]
Instant Enemy - Enchantment <- This is an odd one, it targets one foe, but it specifically affects only the caster...
Keep Watch - Enchantment
Litany of Dependability - Enchantment(Compulsion)[Lawful]
Opportunistic Loyalty - Enchantement(Compulsion)
Prosperous Room - Enchantment
Severed Fate - Enchantment
Spirit Call - Enchantment
Swallow Your Fears - Enchantment
They Know - Enchantment(Compulsion)[Emotion, Fear]
Utter Contempt - Enchantment[Emotion]
Mad Hallucination - Illusion(Phantasm)
Obscured Script - Illusion(Phantasm)
Shadowmind = Illusion(Phantasm)
Trail of the Rose - Illusion(Phantasm)
As per the rule you just quoted... ALL Echantments, Illusion(Patterns), and Illusion(Phantasms) are mind-affecting. Out of all those spells I just linked, only ONE is explicitly not mind-affecting. Some have effects that would hardly make a difference if treated as not mind-affecting, and ALL of the Illusion(Phantasms) as well as several of the Enchantments would be make absolutely no sense to NOT be mind-affecting.
I will offer up the compromise-kludge interpretation I pulled from somewhere unmentionable that allows me to make sense of this poorly written spell.
Since the spell targets an object it cannot have the [mind effecting] descriptor. But patterns are mind effecting so the spell effect radiating from the weapon (or bursting off of it) is mind effecting. So enemies with the appropriate immunity are not subject to the bluff or disarm bonuses or the blinding flash.
Not claiming this is what is written or intended, just how I'd run it.
This is exactly how I've tried to state it works in my previous posts... the spell itself is not mind-affecting, but the effect of the spell still is because it is a pattern.
Okay, I'll start.
Mind-Affecting
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.
All enchantments, illusion (patterns), and illusion (phantasms) are mind-affecting.
See Magic for additional details.
Dazzling Blade will break one of these two bolded rules whether it's a Mind-affecting spell or whether it's not a Mind-affecting spell.
If it is not a mind-affecting spell, then it breaks this rule: "All enchantments, illusion (patterns), and illusion (phantasms) are mind-affecting."
If it is a mind-affecting spell, then it breaks this rule: "A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher."
==================================
It is not possible for this spell to be in compliance with the general rules one way or another, and it's because it's a Pattern spell that targets an object. Frankly, they should've made this spell a Glamer spell.
If you think the lack of the [mind-affecting] descriptor suddenly makes the spell no longer mind-affecting then I guess all of these spells must not be mind-affecting in your book.... despite the fact that the rules very clearly state they are and no specific exception is made in all but one of them.
Alluring Light - Enchantment(Compulsion)
Apparent Master - Enchantment
Bestow Insight - Enchantment
Bite the Hand & Bite the Hand, Mass - Enchantment(Compulsion)
Bungle - Enchantment(Compulsion)...
Honestly this is the best, most-compelling argument against mine thus far. But enchantment spells can affect other things other than just minds. They can affect objects, bodies, weapons, armor, constructs, and even buildings, however there are quite a few in this list that don't have the [mind-affecting] descriptor but really ought to.
Alluring Light - creates an emanation of light that compels others, this probably should have a [mind-affecting] descriptor, but I could understand if the developers felt this targeted their bodies. This one is iffy.
Apparent Master - targets a construct, not mind-affecting
Bestow Insight - targets a humanoid, this probably should have a [mind-affecting] descriptor, unless the developers envisioned this to target the creature's body
Bite the Hand & Bite the Hand, Mass - targets summoned creatures, which may or may not have minds (summon swarm, for instance) - highly iffy
Bungle - Enchantment(Compulsion) - should definitely have a [mind-affecting] descriptor, unless the developers envisioned this to target the creature's body
Business Booms - targets a building
Compelling Rant - definitely [mind-affecting]
Covetous Urge - this is a curse that is language-dependent, and probably shouldn't be mind-affecting. Mind-affecting things wouldn't care about languages.
Curse of Keeping - also a curse, probably shouldn't be mind-affecting
Delay Pain - definitely mind-affecting
Draconic Malice - not mind-affecting
Foster Hatred - definitely mind-affecting
Instant Enemy - probably shouldn't be mind-affecting
Keep Watch - shouldn't be mind affecting, this affects the physical body and physical brain (REM sleep, alpha waves, etc.)
Litany of Dependability - definitely mind-affecting
Opportunistic Loyalty - definitely mind-affecting
Prosperous Room - targets a room or building
Severed Fate - targets... destiny? Not mind-affecting.
Spirit Call - targets spirits, but also yourself and increases your own CL... not mind-affecting
Swallow Your Fears - definitely mind-affecting, targets the fight or flight response in psyche
They Know - definitely mind-affecting, also affects fight/flight response
Utter Contempt - definitely mind-affecting
Mad Hallucination - absolutely, unequivocally mind-affecting, honestly it even says that it directly affects the target's mind in the fluff text
Obscured Script - targets book, paper, or existing inscriptions - probably not mind-affecting, but should have the [language-dependent] descriptor
Shadowmind = targets a creature's sight, not mind-affecting. Tbh, probably should be [glamer] or [shadow]
Trail of the Rose - not mind-affecting, targets a rose and affects eyes/sight
Tbh, after going thru this list, I'm just going to chalk this up as bad writing or at least bad rationalization for why some of these wouldn't be mind-affecting.
Ryze, please refrain from attempting to speak for me.He was talking about you.Does anyone know how to say "you are only making yourself look stupid, you should be quiet now" in a way that is within the forum rules? Asking for a friend.It wouldn't help. People who grew up playing D&D grew numb to looking stupid.
Sounds fair. Please refrain from insinuating that I'm stupid.
How did I miss the target construct aspect of Apparent Master… ok… I stand corrected… two of them are explicitly not mind affecting… and apparently apparent master ONLY affects mindless golems… an int score of 1 negates the spell entirely…
Alluring Light and Bestow Insight… they most certainly do NOT affect the bodies… Alluring Light is a compulsion, compulsion spells bend the subjects will and force their minds to believe what the spell tells them is what they should do. Bestow Insight implants knowledge of a task into the subjects mind temporarily.
Trail of the Rose only lists target one rose in its target line, but it actually targets one rose, you, and up to 6 designated creatures if you read its description… it is mind affecting on you and those 6 designated creatures. It doesn't create a glamour, but rather it creates a phantasmal hallucination of a faint pink wispy trail leading to the targeted rose. The spell is cast on the rose, anchoring the illusion to it but the actual affect targets 1 to 7 people’s minds.
Covetous Urge literally implants greedy thoughts in the targets mind, the fact that it is language dependent doesn’t negate it being mind-affecting in any way. If it did then Geas, Suggestion, Command, Entrall, and a couple dozen more [mind-affecting] enchantments shouldn’t be mind affecting because as you said “Mind-affecting things wouldn't care about languages.” Curse of Keeping is effectively a lesser version of Covetous Urge, and since when does being a curse prevent something from being mind affecting? The spell creates a mental inhibition to selling their possessions, it give the target the mindset of a hoarder.
The fact that Instant Enemy IS mind-affecting only ever comes into play if the caster is immune to mind-affecting effects… the targets immunity is irrelevant since it has no actual effect on the target of the spell. Quite honestly the target line should have read “you” with a range of personal, it functions the same way as the inquisitor spell Wrath, just with a weird target line…
How would Keep Watch NOT be mind-affecting? It puts the targets onto a minor trance that tricks their mind into believing them to have slept so long as they don’t engage in vigorous activity for a full 8 hours…
Severed Fate is a fear effect, it applies the Shaken Condition and makes its target believe they are unworthy of fate to be on their side, it does nothing if its not mind-affecting.
Shadowmind creates an illusion that exists only in the minds of its subjects, it doesn’t affect their eyes at all. The illusion convinces the target that the world is darker than normal and can even cause creatures capable of seeing in magical darkness to become blinded by darkness because they now think its too dark to see anything, they hallucinate a darker environment.
Obscured Script I could agree probably shouldn’t be mind-affecting… it probably should have been a Glamour not a Phantasm… but it most certainly doesn’t need the [Language Dependent] descriptor your suggesting… it wouldn’t make sense, the spell makes text appear scrambled, as gibberish, or completely illegible. Language doesn’t even factor in at all.
Regarding Business Booms, Prosperous Room, and Spirit Call… these three spells target an area but affect those within their area of influence. Spirit Call doesn’t even actually affect spirits at all, the part about attracting spirits is purely fluff, all the spell does is makes the location more spiritual in the minds of those who cast a select few spells within it. These are probably the most analogous to Dazzling Blade as they passively affect the minds of those near them, just like Dazzling Blade does.
Tbh, most of those on your list probably could and should be mind-affecting. When I was going thru your list, I was just looking at the mechanics and fluff text of each spell and trying to understand from the developers' point of view as to why they might rationalize each of these spells as not mind-affecting. And in this list, there were at least 7 that were undeniably mind-affecting (mechanics and/or fluff) that didn't have the mind-affecting descriptor.
This is just bad writing, and it's not worth anyone's time arguing about bad writing. If it makes more sense for you to house rule [mind-affecting] descriptors on each and every one of these, including keep watch, the construct spell, or building/room/area spells, then you do you at your table.
Tbh, most of those on your list probably could and should be mind-affecting. When I was going thru your list, I was just looking at the mechanics and fluff text of each spell and trying to understand from the developers' point of view as to why they might rationalize each of these spells as not mind-affecting. And in this list, there were at least 7 that were undeniably mind-affecting (mechanics and/or fluff) that didn't have the mind-affecting descriptor.
This is just bad writing, and it's not worth anyone's time arguing about bad writing. If it makes more sense for you to house rule [mind-affecting] descriptors on each and every one of these, including keep watch, the construct spell, or building/room/area spells, then you do you at your table.
There is no need to houserule the [mind-affecting] descriptor onto any of them. They ARE mind-affecting even without the descriptor for the simple fact that Enchantments, Phantasms, and Patterns are always mind affecting unless specifically stated otherwise… and of all the spells of those schools and subschools that lack the [mind-affecting] descriptor only 2 of them have specific rules that make them not mind-affecting. Apparent Master, only affects mindless constructs and thus can’t even work if it were mind-affecting. As well as Draconic Malice, which removes immunity to mind-affecting effects which wouldn’t even be possible if it were mind-affecting. These two spells are the ONLY exceptions to the general rule that all Enchantments, Phantasms, and Patterns are mind-affecting. They have specific rules to that effect. Other spells of those schools/subschools that lack the descriptor either do so because their target line wouldn’t work with the descriptor (target object) or simply because the descriptor wasn’t necessary since the school/subschool is already mind-affecting.
That is the RAW.
I'd say Business Booms and Prosperous Room can also be added to your list of exceptions. These spells increase production and cash flow, and it's not a requisite to have a "mind" in the room/building for these spells to function. You could have a crew of undead, constructs, and permanent unseen servants or unseen crew, or simply no crew at all if you're creative enough with your business idea.
For example, you could cast Business Booms on an import/export business and your customers across the ocean would never even see the building, but you'd still benefit from the increased influx of activity that the spell provides. Likewise, Prosperous Room could be cast on an underground ore refinement or smithy manned by nothing but constructs, and the spell would still cause it to produce more labor/materials even though no minds are present. Necromancers could similarly use undead for their manpower for any business they could conceive and still benefit from these spells even though no minds are actually involved. The physical presence of customers isn't even required, because what if you're shipping your products via courier/mail or overseas to customers who put in their orders for your product via magical or mundane correspondence.
It is totally within your purview to houserule it that way if you wish...
Business Booms magically attracts customers to increase activity through enchanted decorations. If all the locals are immune to mind-affecting abilities, then this will have no effect, but generally the populace isn't immune to mind-affecting abilities, so this is a non-issue.
Prosperous Room could work with a mindless workforce, only because it can enchant the room to generate additional materials to work with. However, that only applies if there are materials to work with for the task to begin with. If the room doesn't use materials for its task but is solely worker or customer based in operation, then having a mind-affecting immune workforce or mind-affecting immune customer base would negate the benefit. Like with Business Booms, the likelihood of a mind-affecting immune customer base is next to none-existent, and odds are most tasks will have materials to work with thus benefiting from the increased material generation, leaving only the highly unlikely scenario of a mind-affecting immune workforce performing a task with no materials and no customers... so its hardly an issue...
Don't need to house rule them. They already don't have the mind-affecting descriptor.
We’ve been over this repeatedly and there is a mountain of proof against you, the lack of the [mind-affecting] descriptor on an Enchantment, Phantasm, or Pattern spell does NOT constitute a specific rule that overrides the fact that these types of spells are mind-affecting. Apparent Master has a specific rule that it ONLY works on mindless constructs, thus negating the mind-affecting general rule. Draconic Malice has a specific rule that it negates the targets immunity to mind-affecting, thus also overriding the general rule. These spells lack any specific rules to that extent. If you wish to rule that lacking the [mind-affecting] descriptor on Enchantments, Phantasms, and Patterns to change spells of these three explicitly mind-affecting schools of magic to be not mind-affecting then you can houserule that in your own games. This was a rules question, and by RAW their effects ARE still mind-affecting.
Chell, there's no use arguing about this. This is bad writing, there are logical inconsistencies everywhere, and it's honestly not worth any of our time, effort, or patience to argue about it. You're getting worked up trying to prove something that is impossible to prove due to BAD WRITING by the developers.
A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.
All enchantments, illusion (patterns), and illusion (phantasms) are mind-affecting.
Dazzling Blade will break one of these two quoted above rules whether it's a Mind-affecting spell or whether it's not a Mind-affecting spell.
- If it is NOT a mind-affecting spell, then it breaks this rule: "All enchantments, illusion (patterns), and illusion (phantasms) are mind-affecting."
- If it IS a mind-affecting spell, then it breaks this rule: "A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher."
Therefore, it is not possible for this spell to be in compliance with the general rules one way or another, and it's because it's a Pattern spell that targets an object.
The same ----^ is true for Apparent Master, Draconic Malice, Business Booms, and Prosperous Room. It's not possible for any of these spells to comply with the general rules.
So, since we're dealing with Bad Writing, the best way to handle this is to go back to Specific Rules of the Spell > General Rules of the School/Sub-School of Magic, and then house rule as you see fit. This isn't worth arguing about anymore. Your list of poorly written spells blows every argument in this thread out of the water, including your own.
Folks, I think this thread should now be in the "shake hands and agree to disagree" territory.
Folks, I think this thread should now be in the "shake hands and agree to disagree" territory.
At this point we’ve more chosen turn our backs and agree to disagree…