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So, I was looking at the steam trolley today, thinking about playing a getaway driver-type character for an upcoming oneshot. I'm really enjoying reading about the vehicle subsystem.
That said, I noticed that the steam cart has a very flavorful ability called "Steam Cloud". The Steam Trolley, which is supposed to be a larger version of the steam cart, lacks this ability.
This could be a balance decision, but it seems to come at the expense of the steam trolley having much unique about it (beyond being the only affordable land vehicle that can house a 5-person adventuring party, which would be a problem if we weren't playing in a mid-tech setting). It also feels a little weird, since it gives it much less in common with the steam cart.
Is this really necessary for balance? Could it have been a mistake?
I'll admit to a bias here--the steam trolley is my only option if I want to be able to drive the whole group, but with its low speed compared to a typical carriage, every extra utility counts.
I'd say that the power, while flavorful, isn't much of a balance factor one way or the other. It only happens when you take collision damage (which you'd generally want to avoid) and it's evenhanded enough that it'd be a disadvantage as often as it was an advantage.
That said, "getaway driver" and "low speed" don't mix particularly well. It's not actually any faster than a normal person on foot, and the person on foot can manage it without piloting rolls.
I will note that Passengers is described as "the number of passengers the vehicle is typically configured to carry, if any." It might be reasonable to discuss with your GM the possibility of adjusting that configuration, or perhaps having your party members squeeze a little... though that might cut into the amount of loot your can carry with you, which is its own concern.
Oddly, there don't appear to be any indications in the rules of how much cargo capacity bulk an alchemically powered vehicle can carry. That also seems like the sort of thing it might be wise to discuss with the GM.
I think the biggest concern here is that the speed is only 25ft. That's literally a walking pace for a lot of creatures.
I'm not 100% on the rules for vehicles, but it seems of dubious value except for carrying a lot of gear or for traveling long distances (where you're theoretically avoiding the exertion of long distance travel).
Yeah, it's really wonky how few 4-passenger or 5-passenger vehicles there are that can move, you know, fast. I expected a "large carriage" or something. I do think the vehicle rules have cool stuff in them, but it feels like the lower-level options aren't designed for PCs to use them as a group.
Yeah, it's weird to have vehicles that aren't powered by animals or the driver that are the same speed as the driver. Like who would actually bother with one of these?
I'm also confused why a carriage that is 10ft wide by 10ft long can only fit 3 people. Is the rest of that huge space for cargo? It makes no sense. Something that big should probably be able to fit like 6 people, even 8 if comfort isn't too much of a concern.
Like I don't know what the dimensions of this but it shows like 14 people on this carriage.
And even if that's a larger version than the carriage that is shown in the vehicles section, there's no reason for that to be more than 2 levels above the base version of the carriage. It really shouldn't even be a higher level, just cost more. Of course cost and level are somewhat loosely related.
My GM ultimately just increased the speed of the trolley, since she really wants to do a chase scene now. I would've been happy with a carriage with more seating, though. Honestly, seating size should not be that gamebreaking.
Yeah, I would have thought that the most basic vehicles should all be slightly faster than average walking speed (so like 40) and should be able to carry like 4 people. It makes sense to have smaller vehicles like bicycles or motorcycles, or chariots designed for 1 or 2 people. They are vehicles with specific purposes. But there should also be a low level vehicle designed to carry a fair number of people at speeds that are better than walking yourself.
Yeah, it's not even about realism or balance, it's just about fun, and allowing GMs to run certain kinds of encounters and adventures. When I think "vehicle rules", I don't think naval battles, I think high-speed carriage chases through the forests, lanterns swinging treacherously on their hooks and casting wild shadows as the horses zig and zag between tree and boulder. I just want to be a gangster wizard firing magic missiles from her staff like bullets from a tommygun while the driver struggles to lose the feds by taking a detour through the junkyard.
Personally I would allow additional people to take up cargo room in the vehicle.
Possibly with some sort of attack penalty if they try to fight from the cargo space. Not entirely sure what that penalty would be, or even if it would be needed or interesting.
There's also seemingly no explanation of what crew have to do, if anything, which feels unideal. I'm a bad reader, though. I'm sure it's there.
Happy to do the careful reading...
The general vehicle rules don't specify what the additional crew does other than to say that they are required to operate the vehicle.
Many vehicles don't require more crew than just the one pilot.
Some of the vehicles have a crew count, but don't really say what they do. It seems like that is left up to the player's imaginations and creativity to describe.
Others, like the Siege Tower and Galley give the additional crew a descriptive name.
And then there is the Apparatus of the Octopus which has specific actions that the crew member can do.
Yeah, the problem with "left to their imaginations" is that it, like, practically, PF2 is pretty tight on its action economy. It makes a big difference if being "crew" means spending one action a round, two actions, or all your actions. I'd assume one action, but it's a little unclear. Judging by Apparatus of the Octopus, I wonder if all the vehicles were originally supposed to have all that extra information, and it got cut for time or space.
Yeah, the problem with "left to their imaginations" is that it, like, practically, PF2 is pretty tight on its action economy. It makes a big difference if being "crew" means spending one action a round, two actions, or all your actions. I'd assume one action, but it's a little unclear.
Hmm... Thinking on that, and looking at the rules for Rowed vehicles:
The creatures rowing the vehicle act only as part of the vehicle’s actions, and their movement as part of those actions triggers reactions just as it does for the vehicle itself and its pilot
I would rule that the crew uses the same number of actions as the pilot does for whatever action count the pilot chooses.
So if the pilot does a one-action Drive and a 2-action spell, then the rest of the crew also spends one action doing crew things, and has two actions left.
Similar for if the pilot does a 1-action Drive and then a 1-action Stop - the crew uses two actions and have one left.
I'm not sure I love that in practice, since it means that if the driver takes, say, a 3-action Drive action, the crewmate/s effectively just lost their turns. They don't even get to roll anything.
Also, I don't think you can do a Drive and Stop action. The impression I get is that a vehicle only gets to do one thing per turn. That's why you have to roll and drive recklessly to drive in a straight line at triple speed, instead of just taking three drive actions to drive while making turns at (effectively) triple speed with only a minor chance of failure.
Ah, indeed. I wasn't reading for that.
A vehicle can take part in only 1 move action each round, even if multiple creatures Take Control as pilots on the same round.
And as for balance, I am not sure how that would pan out in play either. Haven't actually tried it.
I'm also not sure how many of these multi-people crewed vehicles would be having their crew filled by PCs. A 10-player party for a Siege Tower seems a bit much, and a 20-player party for a Galley is absurd. But there are ones that have a crew of 1 or 2 in addition to the pilot.
So yeah, it would be something to tinker around with and see what feels right to the group. But that is the best that I can discern from what the rules actually have printed.
Either that or the crew simply has to exist and don't need to spend any actions doing anything for the vehicle since the rules don't say that they do.
I didn't realize that vehicles can only spend one action a round.
That's even worse!
Like why would I bother to grab virtually any vehicle when I could move twice in a turn? Chases make absolutely no sense, as someone on foot could outrun/catch up to most vehicles way more easily.
Vehicles really set themselves up only to make sense as long duration overland travel things, where technically you don't even get a penalty for moving at your overland speed because you're not hustling.
There's basically 0 reason/advantage to use a vehicle with a lower speed.
This was not well thought out.
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I didn't realize that vehicles can only spend one action a round.
To clarify between actions, actions, and actions...
The vehicle can only be used for one Move Action each round. Drive is one action. But the pilot can spend 1, 2, or 3 actions on it. So in a chase scene the pilot can spend 3 actions on Drive and have the vehicle move 3x its speed in a straight line.
Yeah, it's potentially worth it if you're in a horse-drawn carriage going up to 120 ft a round. I do feel like maybe it's not as dynamic as it could be, though. The turning system in particular is very unforgiving--you're stuck at 40 feet a round if you make a single turn, and it doesn't really allow you to attempt a "turn fast" maneuver.
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Yeah, it's potentially worth it if you're in a horse-drawn carriage going up to 120 ft a round.
Especially if your party is in a vehicle and your opponents are not.
Because action cost for the movement of the entire vehicle and party only needs to be spent by one of the people in the party (and possibly any of the PCs that are filling other crew roles). The rest of the party can be firing spells, ranged weapons, and insults at the opponents.
Meanwhile the opponents are each having to spend one or more actions trying to keep up with you or escape you, and will all have that many fewer actions to use in offense against the party. So even if they can all easily keep up with the vehicle (either because the vehicle is slow, the enemies are fast, or the pilot is playing it safe), keeping up with the vehicle on foot still comes with a pretty price sticker.
That's a good point. I hadn't considered that.